Klipsch RW-12d on sale for $299 at Newegg.com again today! - Page 52 - AVS Forum
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post #1531 of 2776 Old 04-06-2013, 07:23 PM
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Question for you, Bman. What crossover numbers do you use for your fronts and centers?

My fronts and center are matched MTMs and crossed over at 40 by the AVR. Without the new sub the fronts were set by the Onk 717's Audyssey 2EQ at "full band." Since I added the sub, Audyssey 2EQ now sets the fronts at 40 and I hear MUCH more bass coming from them.

Since you have three subs (and I would let that new Klipsch break in for a while) I'm puzzled why you are getting the significant nulls you have commented on. Do you have a theory on this?

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post #1532 of 2776 Old 04-06-2013, 07:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

Question for you, Bman. What crossover numbers do you use for your fronts and centers?

---snip---

Since you have three subs (and I would let that new Klipsch break in for a while) I'm puzzled why you are getting the significant nulls you have commented on.

As with you, per Audyssey's recommendations, the mains are set to "Large" with the cross over set to 40Hz. I've checked other crossover settings via REW and the Audyssey recommendations are the most accurate. The center is set to "Small" but the center channel crossover is also set to 40Hz. The LFE is set to LFE+Mains.

Using a continuously generated 78Hz tone (the frequency of the null), the lowest reading is opposite the small support wall behind where I sit. My theory blames the support wall. To the left and right of where I sit, the room opens to the kitchen so there's no reflective wall to create the null with. And of course, this is where the wife sits. Oh lucky me.

I want to try positioning the sub at the base of the offending support wall behind where I sit but I don't have a cable long enough. The subwoofer cable needs to be 25' and my longest subwoofer cables are 15'. The reason for the hesitation, being retired and having just purchased an upgrade TV for the man-cave, the RW-12d with needed accompanying cables and about $250.00 worth of LED, power saving light bulbs, I'm hesitant to throw ten bucks away, just to see if moving a sub to a single location will help. But you know I have to do it. Maybe next month. It may seem cheap or silly but it all adds up and I like to spread things out as best as reasonably possible.

As you suggest, I like to get forty hours on the new subwoofer's driver and it's only been used for one movie, "The Flight of the Phoenix." And as you know, that's a great bass movie. Believe it or not, that movie lost money. eek.gif

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post #1533 of 2776 Old 04-06-2013, 08:23 PM
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ok guys after how many days and nights of thinking what to get what to buy which one is better or whatever you call it, and debating to some of you here who get pissed off with me biggrin.gif, finally pulled the trigger, and also 279 is also very hard to pass on this kind of a deal, i am now a member of klipsch forums tongue.gif so please be kind to me,and also when i get the sub, i am going back here again to ask another more questions whether you guys like it or not tongue.gif and i am wondering if i can run a dual sub with rw 12 with my dayton 12? thanks again.

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post #1534 of 2776 Old 04-06-2013, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

ok guys after how many days and nights of thinking what to get what to buy which one is better or whatever you call it, and debating to some of you here who get pissed off with me biggrin.gif, finally pulled the trigger, and also 279 is also very hard to pass on this kind of a deal, i am now a member of klipsch forums tongue.gif so please be kind to me,and also when i get the sub, i am going back here again to ask another more questions whether you guys like it or not tongue.gif and i am wondering if i can run a dual sub with rw 12 with my dayton 12? thanks again.
Congratulations. Yes, you can use the RW and the Dayton 12 together.

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post #1535 of 2776 Old 04-06-2013, 09:38 PM
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Sorry, I chopped your post up in tiny pieces, but I was trying to get to your opinion on how "musical" the Klipsch is, and offer my newly formed opinion on musicality, now that I actually own the thing, for a week now.

My point was that there are better offerings at higher price points, not that there is something wrong with RW-12d. Many people think the Polk PSW505 is a musical sub. And it is for a $200 sub. There's always something better smile.gif

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Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

finally pulled the trigger, and also 279 is also very hard to pass on this kind of a deal, i am now a member of klipsch forums tongue.gif

Welcome aboard.

Quote:
I am wondering if i can run a dual sub with rw 12 with my dayton 12? thanks again.

There's no reason one can't blend two different subs but one "MUST" have room measuring capability. Do you have or do you have plans of acquiring room measuring capabilities. Without measuring capabilities, one has exactly "ZERO" chance of getting the best out of the two subwoofers you now have.
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post #1537 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Welcome aboard.
There's no reason one can't blend two different subs but one "MUST" have room measuring capability. Do you have or do you have plans of acquiring room measuring capabilities. Without measuring capabilities, one has exactly "ZERO" chance of getting the best out of the two subwoofers you now have.
I dont have that one now. Might sub crawl help a little bit?

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post #1538 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 05:21 AM
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I dont have that one now. Might sub crawl help a little bit?
Yes. But having 2 subs makes it more difficult but not impossible. If you had measuring equipment it would be nice but you dont have to have any. Do the best you can by ear and it may not be ideal but who cares as long as youre satisfied.

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post #1539 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 05:22 AM
 
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In my opinion, no. Sub crawls won't show you where the suckouts occur as they'll only give one generalize notations of their room's acoustics.

Do you have a sound level meter?

With REW and a sound meter in hand, one can play a continuous tone (or continuous pink noise) and measure the output at different locations around the room. And with sound level meter in hand, one can place multiple subwoofers in locations of their choosing and in the process, by walking around the room, obtain realtime measurements. Doing so, one can physically see how different locations in their room are affected as they're obtaining empirical measurements . This as opposed hearing sounds they think they're hearing.

Have you taken time to check out REW?

With sound meter and REW in hand, one can start the process. Without a sound level meter and room measuring capabilities, at best, one is guessing, wishing, hoping.......

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post #1540 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 05:47 AM
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Yes i only have spl meter at the moment.

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post #1541 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 06:03 AM
 
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Yes i only have spl meter at the moment.

REW is freeware. After registration, one can immediately download REW for no charge and combined with your sound level meter, without expensing a single penny, start analyzing your room.

(yes, there will be the frustration of a fairly steep learning curve)

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post #1542 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

REW is freeware. After registration, one can immediately download REW for no charge and combined with your sound level meter, without expensing a single penny, start analyzing your room.

(yes, there will be the frustration of a fairly steep learning curve)

-
Is there any tutorial video on how to use rew with spl meter so that i can look?

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post #1543 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

REW is freeware. After registration, one can immediately download REW for no charge and combined with your sound level meter, without expensing a single penny, start analyzing your room.

(yes, there will be the frustration of a fairly steep learning curve)

-
Is there any tutorial video on how to use rew with spl meter so that i can look?

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post #1544 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 06:19 AM
 
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I don't know if there's a sound level meter/REW tutorial but if you go to "YouTube" and enter REW into the search engine, a bunch of videos will come up.

First things first, go to HomeTheaterShack.com and download REW. I do not understand why folks hesitate on this issue. confused.gif

My frustration, I'm giving you good advice that doesn't cost a penny and instead of downloading the software, you want videos.

Just download the stupid freeware and be done with it. It's not like it's costing anybody anything. It's benign and won't take over your computer and it's not filled with bloatware.

Over the next few days, while waiting for your ordered RW-12d to arrive, you can be familiarizing yourself with REW so when the RW-12d arrives, you'll be good to go with REW.

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post #1545 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 06:25 AM
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Yes i will dl that. Thats all what i need? Rew and spl meter.

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post #1546 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 06:29 AM
 
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Of course you'll need a laptop and appropriate connective cables to get the frequency sweeps from your computer where REW is stored to your sound system but that's all you need to get started.

Later, if you can't use your sound meter as a measuring microphone, you can add a measuring microphone but in the beginning, again, all one needs is the computer, sound level meter and connecting cables to connect the computer to the sound system. That's it.

There won't be any surprises other then the frustration of the PITA learning curve. Once past the learning curve, quit literally, it's all a point-n-click operation.

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post #1547 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Of course you'll need a laptop and appropriate connective cables to get the frequency sweeps to your sound system but that's all you need to get started. Later, if you can't use your sound meter as a measuring microphone, you can add a measuring microphone but in the beginning, again, all one needs is the computer, sound level meter and connecting cables to connect the computer to the sound system. That's it.

There won't be any surprises other then the frustration of the PITA learning curve. Once past the learning curve, pretty much, it's all point-n-click operation.
Connecting cable to my sound system? What cable is that? I think i dont have that cable yet.

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post #1548 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 06:36 AM
 
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One needs to connect the computers headphone out to the AVR's analogue in, so as to be a pathway to get the computer generated tones to the sound system.

I use the "stereo in" on our AVR's front plate and use the AVR's remote control to set the AVR to "Aux In." Below is an example of the connecting cable I use between the computer and the AVR.



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post #1549 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 06:41 AM
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Gotcha. Maybe the one from $.99 cents store like this will do?

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post #1550 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 06:43 AM
 
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Don't see a link. confused.gif

If like the above posted image, yes.

Anything that ports the REW generated signal from the computer to the sound system will work.
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post #1551 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 06:46 AM
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I mean like that what you posted, last time when i bought something from .99 store ibe seen similar like that. I guess it shout be good.

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post #1552 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 06:47 AM
 
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Yes.
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post #1553 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

Gotcha. Maybe the one from $.99 cents store like this will do?

I would think "yes."

I bought a 25' RCA "sub" cable, and it is much thicker than a standard RCA component cable. I didn't buy the more expensive cable (I think maybe $15) because of any high fidelity issues. I like buying the cables which are better shielded, because frankly I don't like the idea of radio waves bouncing all over the place, like I'm a burrito in a microwave oven.

(how's my metaphor, Mr. BMan? I know, I know, it's more like an analogy) rolleyes.gif

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #1554 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 07:20 AM
 
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Great!

I can spare some aluminum foil if it would help. eek.gif...tongue.gif

We can always go for: like an aluminum wrapped, bouncing burrito, "Doing the Limbata" while being microwaved in Minnesota.

"Doing the Limbata"

Does that qualify as a "tortured" metaphor?

...rolleyes.gif

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post #1555 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

Question for you, Bman. What crossover numbers do you use for your fronts and centers?

---snip---

Since you have three subs (and I would let that new Klipsch break in for a while) I'm puzzled why you are getting the significant nulls you have commented on.

As with you, per Audyssey's recommendations, the mains are set to "Large" with the cross over set to 40Hz. I've checked other crossover settings via REW and the Audyssey recommendations are the most accurate. The center is set to "Small" but the center channel crossover is also set to 40Hz. The LFE is set to LFE+Mains.

Using a continuously generated 78Hz tone (the frequency of the null), the lowest reading is opposite the small support wall behind where I sit. My theory blames the support wall. To the left and right of where I sit, the room opens to the kitchen so there's no reflective wall to create the null with. And of course, this is where the wife sits. Oh lucky me.

I want to try positioning the sub at the base of the offending support wall behind where I sit but I don't have a cable long enough. The subwoofer cable needs to be 25' and my longest subwoofer cables are 15'. The reason for the hesitation, being retired and having just purchased an upgrade TV for the man-cave, the RW-12d with needed accompanying cables and about $250.00 worth of LED, power saving light bulbs, I'm hesitant to throw ten bucks away, just to see if moving a sub to a single location will help. But you know I have to do it. Maybe next month. It may seem cheap or silly but it all adds up and I like to spread things out as best as reasonably possible.

As you suggest, I like to get forty hours on the new subwoofer's driver and it's only been used for one movie, "The Flight of the Phoenix." And as you know, that's a great bass movie. Believe it or not, that movie lost money. eek.gif

-

Slight nit....Audyssey does not recommend using large. Your avr did. Not the same thing. http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large

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Slight nit....Audyssey does not recommend using large. Your avr did. Not the same thing. http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large

For all my reading and everybody's effort to brow beat me into submission, I completely fail to see a difference as AVR or Audyssey, it's all the same. Audyssey is inside of the AVR, just like a transmission is in a car as most people don't care what car part chooses the gear, just as long as they get where they want to go, on time.

Working with you, quoting from responses associated with your link, quote posted by Chris of Audyssey:

Quote:
"Audyssey doesn't set speakers to Large or Small and most certainly doesn't set the sub to LFE+Main. These are decisions that the AVR makes. We recommend that if there is a subwoofer in the system, then all speakers should be set to Small and the sub mode should be LFE (not LFE+Main)."

I do my best to accurately articulate the process as Audyssey recommends to the AVR and based on the agreement the AVR manufacture worked out with Audyssey and the readings Audyssey measures during the calibration process, I get stuck with somebody's recommendation. tongue.gif...biggrin.gif

And yes, I'll keep working on it as in a day or two, I'll give Chris' recommended settings a try and see how REW measurements are impacted.

...cool.gif...biggrin.gif...cool.gif

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post #1557 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 02:22 PM
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Those bass tests on youtube are fun.
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post #1558 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Slight nit....Audyssey does not recommend using large. Your avr did. Not the same thing. http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large

For all my reading and everybody's effort to brow beat me into submission, I completely fail to see a difference as AVR or Audyssey, it's all the same. Audyssey is inside of the AVR, just like a transmission is in a car as most people don't care what car part chooses the gear, just as long as they get where they want to go, on time.

Working with you, quoting from responses associated with your link, quote posted by Chris of Audyssey:

Quote:
"Audyssey doesn't set speakers to Large or Small and most certainly doesn't set the sub to LFE+Main. These are decisions that the AVR makes. We recommend that if there is a subwoofer in the system, then all speakers should be set to Small and the sub mode should be LFE (not LFE+Main)."

I do my best to accurately articulate the process as Audyssey recommends to the AVR and based on the agreement the AVR manufacture worked out with Audyssey and the readings Audyssey measures during the calibration process, I get stuck with somebody's recommendation. tongue.gif...biggrin.gif

And yes, I'll keep working on it as in a day or two, I'll give Chris' recommended settings a try and see how REW measurements are impacted.

...cool.gif...biggrin.gif...cool.gif

-

It's worth a try. Why do you think the AVR manufacturer worked out anything but a license agreement with Audyssey and then did what they wanted to outside of that? That's just business...

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post #1559 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 06:56 PM
 
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That's just business...

I'm retired. All I do is sing and laugh all day. Don't know nothing about business no more. Forgot everything I knew. Don't want any. tongue.gif

Tomorrow, I'll turn the measuring gear on and see what I can do with Chris's recommendations. I have a sneaky suspicion that by allowing the AVR changes to stand, it's causing the mid-bass hump that's accentuating the null as all of a sudden things went from great to bad and I couldn't figure out why. Your reminder brought this forgotten point back out again.

I'm hoping that by changing the mains to small and the LFE+Mains to LFE, it will reduce the mid-bass hump and get me back to the garden.

Thanks for the technical reminder or as you called it "slight nit." biggrin.gif
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post #1560 of 2776 Old 04-07-2013, 08:25 PM
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Hope it works. I tried to forget all the business bs for a while but then went back to work...smile.gif

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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Klipsch Rw 12d 12 Subwoofer Each , Subwoofers , Speaker Systems

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