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post #2521 of 2776 Old 08-27-2013, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

That's what I was hoping, thanks. I'm going to pick up another one I think.

Good to hear that everything worked fine for you. I am waiting for mine which has been shipped & scheduled to arrive on 8/29.
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post #2522 of 2776 Old 08-27-2013, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

To set the volume of the sub(s), you want to make sure Audyssey's sub trim is close to 0 (at least for calibration purposes). Raise or lower the volume on the sub until it's close, then leave it there and make all your other changes on the AVR.
For REW, just use the "check levels" option.

How do I use check levels? I'm using HDMI to output to sub only (channel 4 in the list of inputs) and an UMIK-1 microphone with the calibration file loaded.

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post #2523 of 2776 Old 08-27-2013, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

Any possible downside?

Only if you put them in a way where they cancel each other, resulting in nulls (which happened to me). I was able to reduce the null by setting one of the subs to a phase of 180°.

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post #2524 of 2776 Old 08-27-2013, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shpitz View Post

Only if you put them in a way where they cancel each other, resulting in nulls (which happened to me). I was able to reduce the null by setting one of the subs to a phase of 180°.

Is that a common issue?

- Klipsch RF-82 ii, RC-62 ii, RS-52 ii
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post #2525 of 2776 Old 08-27-2013, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

Is that a common issue?

I doubt it since i would think it depends mostly on your specific room and furniture arrangement, but with experimenting you should easily eliminate the issue.

In my case, if I was sitting at the main listening positions in front of the TV I wouldn't hear or feel any bass. As soon as I stood up (at the same positions), the bass was incredible. I still need to experiment more with my setup, I'm not happy with the placement. I also want to give the suggestion to stack both subs a shot and see how it goes.

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post #2526 of 2776 Old 08-27-2013, 09:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by shpitz View Post

I guess I gotta give it a try smile.gif I guess I was afraid the sub at the top will bounce off under a heavy load... lol

Is the graph showing a measurement @ MLP?

I've set the volume of both subs to 75db using Audyssey, I don't have an SPL meter to confirm, I'm relying to Audyssey to make the correct measurement. I'm not sure what to set the receiver's volume to while measuring with REW...

The graph is at my wife's listening position. I sit three feet to her left. As to stacking, there's no way the top sub is going dance off the lower subwoofer.

Our subs are separately gain matched at a measured one meter, to 70-73dB with a handheld, calibrated sound meter.

It helps to have a handheld sound meter to initially set the gain volume, while AVR provided pink noise is played through the subwoofers, AVR levels set to +/- 0.

Some like to set the gain while the sound meter is at one foot and some encourage using one inch. I use a measured one meter. It's up to you what distance you want to chose. The further the sound meter is away from the subwoofer driver, the more a room's acoustics can interact with the subwoofer's output which will impact/affect the reading.

With all subwoofers turned on and outputting pink noise, while the AVR's levels are set to +/- 0dB, it's expected at the MLP, to have a (subwoofer's combined output) SPL reading of 75dB.

-
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post #2527 of 2776 Old 08-27-2013, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The graph is at my wife's listening position. I sit three feet to her left. As to stacking, there's no way the top sub is going dance off the lower subwoofer.

Our subs are separately gain matched at a measured one meter, to 70-73dB with a handheld, calibrated sound meter.

It helps to have a handheld sound meter to initially set the gain volume, while AVR provided pink noise is played through the subwoofers, AVR levels set to +/- 0.

Some like to set the gain while the sound meter is at one foot and some encourage using one inch. I use a measured one meter. It's up to you what distance you want to chose. The further the sound meter is away from the subwoofer driver, the more a room's acoustics can interact with the subwoofer's output which will impact/affect the reading.

With all subwoofers turned on and outputting pink noise, while the AVR's levels are set to +/- 0dB, it's expected at the MLP, to have a (subwoofer's combined output) SPL reading of 75dB.

-

Thanks for the detailed info! I guess I'll have to get myself a meter, any recommendations?

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post #2528 of 2776 Old 08-27-2013, 12:06 PM
 
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The cheap standard is the digital, Radio Shack sound meter. I have a digital sound meter from Radio Shack that I used for many years, but I wanted better. After checking out several sound meters and getting a sound meter calibration device, this is the sound meter I hold near, dear and in constant close proximity to the main listening position.
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post #2529 of 2776 Old 08-27-2013, 12:49 PM
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What is the best way to measure how low your subwoofer is getting and all that? Sound meter or software on a pc?

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post #2530 of 2776 Old 08-27-2013, 01:02 PM
 
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Don't know if it's the best way. I use REW and go by what REW measures and reports.

(software on a PC)
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post #2531 of 2776 Old 08-27-2013, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The cheap standard is the digital, Radio Shack sound meter. I have a digital sound meter from Radio Shack that I used for many years, but I wanted better. After checking out several sound meters and getting a sound meter calibration device, this is the sound meter I hold near, dear and in constant close proximity to the main listening position.

SOLD! Thanks Bee!

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post #2532 of 2776 Old 08-27-2013, 02:25 PM
 
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...biggrin.gif
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post #2533 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

...biggrin.gif

So i've stacked both subs, it wasn't too bad of a null, and the pressure was felt pretty good.

Then, I moved one sub to be behind the main couch while the 2nd is in front-right, both are not centered, and are in ~45° angle to the MLP. The quality of sound was good but there is hardly any pressure felt...



I ran Audyssey full 8-position calibration. It set my fronts @ 40Hz x-over, center at 50Hz. I changed them both to 80Hz. It set LFE x-over to OFF, which is what I have set the subs to as well (in their control panels).

What do you make of it?

Is there a way I can increase the pressure when the subs are in-front and behind MLP?

The skadoosh scene from Panda 1 was a little too flat to my taste, so is the IronHide sweep in Transformers 1, but it sounded 'clean'.

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post #2534 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 07:24 AM
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Change the phase on one.

Frankly, the black line looks pretty good to me.

You might just need a "house curve" (increase the volume to the subs [assuming you've volume-matched the subs] on the AVR a few dB).

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post #2535 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 07:33 AM
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The black line is with Audyssey Movie plus Dynamic EQ.

I actually set both subs to 75db using the first two screens of Audyssey, which gave me -17 on the front sub and -20 on the back sub. You're saying I should match them regardless of Audyssey?

Audyssey set the volume on the subs at -4 for the back and -2.5 for the front, you're saying I should match them at -2.5 and see how it sounds?

Should I touch the x-over/LFE on the subs or receiver? right now they are both on OFF.

Thanks!

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post #2536 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 07:36 AM
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XO on the AVR should be 80Hz (unless your mains [which should be set to "small"] are overly small or overly large); LFE on subs to "off."

It looks like they're "matched" at 75dB, which is fine.

I would increase them both 3dB and see if you're happier.

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post #2537 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 07:50 AM
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Just for details sake, it should be Lowpass to Off. Which means LFE mode is On.
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post #2538 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Just for details sake, it should be Lowpass to Off. Which means LFE mode is On.

Sorry, just couldn't dash home to check. wink.gif

Thanks for the clarification.

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post #2539 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

XO on the AVR should be 80Hz (unless your mains [which should be set to "small"] are overly small or overly large); LFE on subs to "off."
It looks like they're "matched" at 75dB, which is fine.
I would increase them both 3dB and see if you're happier.

These are my fronts: Primus 363

What should I set them to? small or large? XO on the AVR for the subs should be set to 80? Right now it's set to OFF.

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post #2540 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 08:06 AM
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Also, which DSP mode do you guys watch movies in?

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post #2541 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Just for details sake, it should be Lowpass to Off. Which means LFE mode is On.

You mean to set the LPF on the sub itself to OFF?

I just scanned the receiver's manual and it says the following:
Quote:
If you’re using a powered subwoofer and it outputs very
low-frequency sound at a low volume level, it may not be
detected by Audyssey MultEQ XT32 Room Correction
and Speaker Setup.
If the “Subwoofer” appears on the “Review Speaker
Configuration” screen as “No”, increase the subwoofer’s
volume to the half-way point, set it to its highest crossover
frequency, and then try running Audyssey MultEQ XT32
Room Correction and Speaker Setup again. Note that if the
volume is set too high and the sound distorts, detection
issues may occur, so use an appropriate volume level. If the
subwoofer has a low-pass filter switch, set it to Off or
Direct.

I just double-checked the manual for the RW-12d and it is in fact an LPF, not LFE XO.

Damn, I RTFM'd twice in one day!!! lol

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post #2542 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by shpitz View Post

Also, which DSP mode do you guys watch movies in?
Depth

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post #2543 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shpitz View Post

These are my fronts: Primus 363

What should I set them to? small or large? XO on the AVR for the subs should be set to 80? Right now it's set to OFF.
Small and 80 in the AVR.

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post #2544 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shpitz View Post


You mean to set the LPF on the sub itself to OFF?

I just scanned the receiver's manual and it says the following:
I just double-checked the manual for the RW-12d and it is in fact an LPF, not LFE XO.

Damn, I RTFM'd twice in one day!!! lol

That's better than most people do in a lifetime. biggrin.gif

Yes, as the very-much-still-alive Mr. Bond advised, lowpass to off, which puts the sub in LFE mode.

You want the AVR to determine which signals go to the sub; XO = 80, all other speakers to "small."

Bump up the bass.

Report back. wink.gif


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post #2545 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by shpitz View Post

Also, which DSP mode do you guys watch movies in?

It doesn't matter, as long as that's the mode you use for calibration.


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post #2546 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 08:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by shpitz View Post

What do you make of it?

In my opinion, the black line in the best, next, the green line.

(do you have graphs that are set to 1/12th smoothing applied?)

It looks like you're applying 1/4 smoothing and if I'm reading the graph legend correctly, the applied smoothing of 1/4th smoothing is hiding a lot of the ringing in the room; tight or loose bass.
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post #2547 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

It looks like you're applying 1/4 smoothing and if I'm reading the graph legend correctly, the applied smoothing of 1/4th smoothing is hiding a lot of the ringing in the room; tight or loose bass.

Your old eyes are better than my old eyes. wink.gif

For bass graphs, smoothing should be zero.


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post #2548 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

In my opinion, the black line in the best, next, the green line.

(do you have graphs that are set to 1/12th smoothing applied?)

It looks like you're applying 1/4 smoothing and if I'm reading the graph legend correctly, the applied smoothing of 1/4th smoothing is hiding a lot of the ringing in the room; tight or loose bass.

Dang Bee, you can't be fooled! smile.gif

I used 1/6 smoothing, not sure why... lol

Here's the raw version:


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post #2549 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 08:44 AM
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Black is still better. And if your XO is at 80, your mains are still louder than your subs.

Crank 'em up! smile.gif


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post #2550 of 2776 Old 08-28-2013, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

It doesn't matter, as long as that's the mode you use for calibration.

Oh, Audyssey is per DSP mode?

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