Subwoofer Ownership – Your Path to Satisfaction - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 689 Old 06-19-2013, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nube View Post

You can click on the photo and it'll take you to the image hosting site, where the video plays. (At least on my phone.)

As for REW & the MiniDSP, it's a powerful combo, and pretty easy to use. It's certainly going to allow finer granularity of adjustment, and user control over them. Highly recommended.

I sure wish Mark would have responded to what I last wrote, because I really want clarification - other SubM owners, such as Craig John in the SubM thread, have mentioned this 7hz HPF, but I haven't seen it corrected. This was one of the only negative aspects of the SubM in my mind. They still perform great!
I meant to respond to this earlier. I'd also like to point out (well reiterate) the measurement issues when attempting to measure down that low. I'm not into high end measurement gear as some others are, but my research has led me to the conclusion that measurements below 10Hz are always suspect...especially using the gear most of us are willing to acquire.

 

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post #272 of 689 Old 06-19-2013, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post

You can click on the photo and it'll take you to the image hosting site, where the video plays. (At least on my phone.)

As for REW & the MiniDSP, it's a powerful combo, and pretty easy to use. It's certainly going to allow finer granularity of adjustment, and user control over them. Highly recommended.

I sure wish Mark would have responded to what I last wrote, because I really want clarification - other SubM owners, such as Craig John in the SubM thread, have mentioned this 7hz HPF, but I haven't seen it corrected. This was one of the only negative aspects of the SubM in my mind. They still perform great!

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Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post

^^^Mark commented on one thread I read this week that the SubM does not have a 7Hz HPF, the amplifier rolloff is all that is there. He was rather definitive on the subject.

Since that post I had gone back and checked both on my own and cross referenced with my OEM. The amplifier roll off is somewhere below 5Hz, and is still only ~3dB below the passband at this very low frequency point of 5Hz. The ~7Hz number was what I had recalled from the originally SubMersive's 1000W ICEpower amplifier where the roll off was a little steeper as well. In my opinion the 5Hz lower roll of is getting overly nit-picky. Most electronics are rolling off by 2-10Hz anyway. Deep extension from coupling into the room is great, and something to be put to use, but when we start talking about 5Hz vs. 10Hz lower limits we better already have many liters of one way volume displacement on tap and the rest of the range competently covered from effective subwoofer locations in the room.

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post #273 of 689 Old 06-19-2013, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post

I sure wish Mark would have responded to what I last wrote, because I really want clarification - other SubM owners, such as Craig John in the SubM thread, have mentioned this 7hz HPF, but I haven't seen it corrected. This was one of the only negative aspects of the SubM in my mind. They still perform great!

I thought I had answered it, but I'm assuming you mean this question?
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Originally Posted by nube View Post

Thanks for the update, Mark. I always appreciate your thoughtful input.

You know, I swear I've read that you said that there was a specific 7hz HPF...

Actually, I found the reference from the Oct. 20, 2012 GTG at Gorilla's house:
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Someone asked how deep these subs went. Here is a capture of the Submersive HPs triple setup in program 2 with 5hz being the starting point on the x axis. Mark confirmed he has a HPF setup on the Submersive DSP at 7hz in the plate amp he uses.
SeatonSubmersivetriplesprogram2-graphto5hz_zps4fb743a6.jpg

Just for clarification, did Jonathan misinterpret what you're saying about the rolloff in the amp? I didn't see any correction of it in that thread (big thread, easy to miss), so I thought I'd better ask!

Yes. It was a misinterpretation or lazy communication on my part. That said, with the above measurement being the only one posted below 10Hz from that day, we can't possibly know what the kink in the response is from, as most often such sharp kinks in the response are from structural, hallway, stairway or HVAC interactions.

While the differences are minor, I guess I should differentiate between DC filtering/amplifier VLF roll off and specific high pass filters as many like to read more into such terms than really is there. wink.gif The S2 and any other subwoofer using the same family of amplifiers will also have the same roll off. Given all the other real world benefits of the SpeakerPower amplifier design (we've been thinking about badging it "Class-HD"), I loose zero sleep over a VLF roll off of 2Hz vs. 5Hz. Again, it's not gone at 4Hz, it's just a little lower still. Again, check the rest of your signal chain as well.

When SpeakerPower first developed this amplifier I was the first OEM to find that the DC protection circuits of the first samples were set too aggressively as some of the crazy HT demo tracks would actually trip the DC protection circuits. After a couple iterations we found a suitable adjustment which is what is now found in the production version of the amplifier. This was never an issue with pro audio use, and I have come across this issue in amplifiers from other companies. Unfortunately this just needs to be tested to really know if its an issue in an amplifier, especially if you put all of what an amp has available to use.
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post #274 of 689 Old 06-20-2013, 09:20 AM
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That was the question I was referring to, and you answered it entirely, Mark. As is your ever gracious and informative style, you even provided a lot more info about related subjects that many can stand to learn from. Thanks! It truly is appreciated. smile.gif

Now I won't regurgitate misinterpreted heresay about the nonexistent 7hz HPF on the SubM, and I'm sorry I ever did!
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post #275 of 689 Old 06-24-2013, 11:19 AM
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Ok all! I have listed most of my system for sale and have some hits already. 7 definitive technology speakers and my HSU sub. This way I can get better speakers as well. I have been reading up on the JTR triple 12's and 8's. any thoughts? By reading through the thread it seems most noted a big jump between these two models. Or perhaps some other speaker options? Looks like I will get the front 3 and not have surround for awhile as this will take most of my financial effort. The sub upgrade is paid for by the upcoming bonus. But with speakers such as the JTR's I will need an amp as well. Probably Emotiva?
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post #276 of 689 Old 06-24-2013, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Ok all! I have listed most of my system for sale and have some hits already. 7 definitive technology speakers and my HSU sub. This way I can get better speakers as well. I have been reading up on the JTR triple 12's and 8's. any thoughts? By reading through the thread it seems most noted a big jump between these two models. Or perhaps some other speaker options? Looks like I will get the front 3 and not have surround for awhile as this will take most of my financial effort. The sub upgrade is paid for by the upcoming bonus. But with speakers such as the JTR's I will need an amp as well. Probably Emotiva?

The T12's and T8's are high sensitivity. You will be fine using your AVR for power as long as you have too..
If I were you, I would get one OS for the time being and throw $3K toward your LCR upgrade. Go for the Noesis, or you will end up kicking yourself in the end...

My take!

 

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post #277 of 689 Old 06-24-2013, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

The T12's and T8's are high sensitivity. You will be fine using your AVR for power as long as you have too..
If I were you, I would get one OS for the time being and throw $3K toward your LCR upgrade. Go for the Noesis, or you will end up kicking yourself in the end...

My take!

I've read several saying they thought the 8's to 12's were a big jump but the 12's to the Noesis 12's were a minimal jump in SQ. after they had listened.

Any thoughts on these? I've seen them in a couple places around here. I know the differences between a pa sub on ht subs. Are there differences in the speakers from pa to ht?

http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/kw_series/
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post #278 of 689 Old 06-24-2013, 04:28 PM
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I would like to hear a setup using the KW153s as LCR. I would think the dynamics would be awesome for HT, not sure for music but would bet they wouldn't suck.

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post #279 of 689 Old 06-28-2013, 06:39 AM
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post #280 of 689 Old 06-28-2013, 06:15 PM
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So this is most fitting for this thread. After all it's about being satisfied with your woofage setup. Tomm at 10am I will be selling my HSU VTF 15H subwoofer. It's a little bittersweet in that it was my first real HT sub. But good because it starts the funds for a better setup. But this setup will be about nine months away. Well I still have 10's in my DT powered towers...funny thing is my UMM-6 mic just showed up in the mail today too. At least if most of my stuff goes soon I still have a pair of Denon headphones to get some good SQ out of. I am gonna keep both pairs of my surrounds so I will still have 7 channel surround when the fronts and subs come. Those 5 items will take every thing I will have and it will be awhile after until more gear can be purchased. After that we will see where I am at. I'm kinda thinking a projector by that time...

This is all of your guys's faults! smile.gif
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post #281 of 689 Old 06-29-2013, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

So this is most fitting for this thread. After all it's about being satisfied with your woofage setup. Tomm at 10am I will be selling my HSU VTF 15H subwoofer. It's a little bittersweet in that it was my first real HT sub. But good because it starts the funds for a better setup. But this setup will be about nine months away. Well I still have 10's in my DT powered towers...funny thing is my UMM-6 mic just showed up in the mail today too. At least if most of my stuff goes soon I still have a pair of Denon headphones to get some good SQ out of. I am gonna keep both pairs of my surrounds so I will still have 7 channel surround when the fronts and subs come. Those 5 items will take every thing I will have and it will be awhile after until more gear can be purchased. After that we will see where I am at. I'm kinda thinking a projector by that time...

This is all of your guys's faults! smile.gif

Congrats on the sale!

When you say "those 5 things" are you referring to dual OS and your LCR? Remind us again... T12's or the Noesis?

Sounds killer man!

 

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post #282 of 689 Old 06-29-2013, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Congrats on the sale!

When you say "those 5 things" are you referring to dual OS and your LCR? Remind us again... T12's or the Noesis?

Sounds killer man!

In my mind its L/C/R 212 Noesis and yes dual OS's! eek.gif If I was just movies then perhaps the regulars 212's but music is big for me and i've read they are a notch better there. Of course all I have is others reviews/info at this point and no personal experience. smile.gif
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post #283 of 689 Old 06-29-2013, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

In my mind its L/C/R 212 Noesis and yes dual OS's! eek.gif If I was just movies then perhaps the regulars 212's but music is big for me and i've read they are a notch better there. Of course all I have is others reviews/info at this point and no personal experience. smile.gif

+1. You will be in rare company right there sir. I would go so far as to say you will have one of the most capable home theaters in the world...from an output perspective at least.

1%er.

biggrin.gif

 

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post #284 of 689 Old 06-29-2013, 05:02 PM
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From 20hz and up! Stop being modest pop!
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post #285 of 689 Old 06-29-2013, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

From 20hz and up! Stop being modest pop!

Hhahaha... True.

Rare company in the sub 20hz arena is a whole different story...

 

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post #286 of 689 Old 06-29-2013, 06:51 PM
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Yeah probably less than .1%!
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post #287 of 689 Old 06-29-2013, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

In my mind its L/C/R 212 Noesis and yes dual OS's! eek.gif If I was just movies then perhaps the regulars 212's but music is big for me and i've read they are a notch better there. Of course all I have is others reviews/info at this point and no personal experience. smile.gif

Now this will be a system that will never be stressed from reference level. Pure, undistorted HT sonic boom. Nice!!!!

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post #288 of 689 Old 06-29-2013, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

From 20hz and up! Stop being modest pop!

Perhaps I could have a magical room gain?
Cap S2's are not out of the picture. On that thought, are there any dual cap S2 response graphs around avs? Surely we can't disregard RMK's flat to 10 with his dual OS's right?
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post #289 of 689 Old 06-29-2013, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post


Perhaps I could have a magical room gain?
Cap S2's are not out of the picture. On that thought, are there any dual cap S2 response graphs around avs? Surely we can't disregard RMK's flat to 10 with his dual OS's right?

How big is your room? Is it sealed?

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post #290 of 689 Old 06-29-2013, 08:48 PM
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How big is your room? Is it sealed?

By time I upgrade I don't know where I will be (will be looking for a rental soon, on the outskirts of town for loud subwoofer purposes)
The final destination (3-4 yrs on a home purchase) will be hugely based what I will consider THE dedicated room. I will most likely convert a garage with the full meal deal, framing, decoupling, soundproofing, etc. so the DREAM center will be how I see fit. smile.gif
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post #291 of 689 Old 06-29-2013, 11:24 PM
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Dual OS's will never ever be flat to 10hz because of the massive horn load at 22hz. They will act like two 18 inch subs under the horn so 10 hz will be whatever the two 18's in a sealed box can do. Still pretty good but It will depend on room if 10 hz is reference level capable. Make no mistake, they will kick some arse in the audible range. The only way you can be flat to 10hz is if you keep the output at the 10 hz max output capability. Hey, if that happens to be at reference then you are flat with any movie. Again, room dependent.
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post #292 of 689 Old 07-01-2013, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Dual OS's will never ever be flat to 10hz because of the massive horn load at 22hz. They will act like two 18 inch subs under the horn so 10 hz will be whatever the two 18's in a sealed box can do. Still pretty good but It will depend on room if 10 hz is reference level capable. Make no mistake, they will kick some arse in the audible range. The only way you can be flat to 10hz is if you keep the output at the 10 hz max output capability. Hey, if that happens to be at reference then you are flat with any movie. Again, room dependent.

This is true MK but the debate is often the need or any compelling reason for the reproduction of 10hz. In my case, the answer is no but you (and a few others) have a different opinion. For me is is simple. I have no need or desire to reproduce that nauseating effect of a car window open and the resultant pressure. In fact, I do everything I can to avoid it. smile.gif

I never said the OS's were flat to 10Hz at reference level. Jeff took this raw (no EQ) graph in my room at the main LP when my OS's were setup and it is the cause of the confusion over this issue.

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post #293 of 689 Old 07-01-2013, 08:17 AM
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This is true MK but the debate is often the need or any compelling reason for the reproduction of 10hz. In my case, the answer is no but you (and a few others) have a different opinion. For me is is simple. I have no need or desire to reproduce that nauseating effect of a car window open and the resultant pressure. In fact, I do everything I can to avoid it. smile.gif

I never said the OS's were flat to 10Hz at reference level. Jeff took this raw (no EQ) graph in my room at the main LP when my OS's were setup and it is the cause of the confusion over this issue.

The reason for 10hz is because it is on the disc. Now, the OS may have enough displacement for 10hz reference levels, just like a single CapS2 except a cap S2 have collocated drivers for maximum spl gain. I am just stating facts, anyone can do whatever they wish with whatever subs. I had dual folded 18's a long time ago and were cheap ones that did a fantastic job until 25-30hz. Much better than my SVS pb12/plus/2 in 25hz mode. The output was crazy loud to 25hz and even had decent 15hz stuff and they were cheap $350 pro horns. The F-20's I had were deeper than those but still not as much spl up top as the folded sealed 18's I had. It all depends on the goals of the individual and if one has not experienced true flat to 5hz reference capable(120 dBs or so) they really don't have that experience. Too many people stick multiple sealed subs in a room without low end boost and say it is OK. The people that have the displacement and low end boosted always say WOW!

Just for an example, take that sweep up to 120 dBs and see what happens. It will not look the same but if it does then you can say I have reference to 7hz with headroom to spare above 20hz! Never a bad thing. When I went to the F-20's from the CHT sealed 18's I missed the lower end and went back. These little 12's I have rolloff much less than any other system I have owned and requires much less EQ to be flat to 5hz and I can really feel the difference.

BTW, I also don't like the windows down with all that pressure but that does not happen in my theater until I get crazy on the volume. That usually happens at 125+ dBs on my uncorrected spl meter and when my ears start to plug. This can happen at 20hz too!
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post #294 of 689 Old 07-01-2013, 09:15 PM
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Hey guys. I know we have been talking about Orbit Shifters, Captivators, SubMersives, and many badass DIY setups but this add has me rethinking everything. ?
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post #295 of 689 Old 07-01-2013, 09:53 PM
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Really? This is a joke right? I hope that is an 18 with 21000 jigawatts!
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post #296 of 689 Old 07-01-2013, 10:23 PM
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Really? This is a joke right? I hope that is an 18 with 21000 jigawatts!

I think it may be a whole whopping 8 inch woofer...sigh...
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post #297 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 01:54 AM
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Makes me question the integrity and/or judgement of audioholics.

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post #298 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 03:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

For me is is simple. I have no need or desire to reproduce that nauseating effect of a car window open and the resultant pressure. In fact, I do everything I can to avoid it. smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

BTW, I also don't like the windows down with all that pressure but that does not happen in my theater until I get crazy on the volume. That usually happens at 125+ dBs on my uncorrected spl meter and when my ears start to plug. This can happen at 20hz too!

I find myself rolling my windows down just to try to find that 3-7Hz effect...then I just imagine overlaying a few other fresh beats and start kicking a flow in my head. All this while I'm tuning out my wife and daughter yelling at me...

To each their own thought...

 

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post #299 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post


I find myself rolling my windows down just to try to find that 3-7Hz effect...then I just imagine overlaying a few other fresh beats and start kicking a flow in my head. All this while I'm tuning out my wife and daughter yelling at me...

Just for future reference you know that there are support groups that can help you with this situation... ;-)
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post #300 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 06:17 AM
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I know many applications are different. For a dual setup such as Cap S2's or dual OS's what would be an average room gain in DB. Lets say a sealed room, treated about the size of 18x24.

of headroom.
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