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post #301 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 08:16 AM
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All rooms are different, they can range from 3-10 dBs of gain per octave. A sealed concrete bunker will get you 12 dBs per octave but this means the door won't be leaky as well. I am getting about 9 dBs per octave with a 2100 cubic feet sealed room and treatments. I have 3 walls and the floor made with concrete. Let's put it this way, CapS2 will be flatter to 5hz for sure but lose 6 dBs above 20hz. The question is will you use that 6 dBs? I would rather be flat to 5hz then be flat to 20hz and have 6 dBs of headroom. Now the OS will still get you 5hz material but 6 dBs down. All I know is when I am flat to 5 hz with low end boost it makes the system seem more powerful but I have 20hz and up covered.

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post #302 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

All rooms are different, they can range from 3-10 dBs of gain per octave. A sealed concrete bunker will get you 12 dBs per octave but this means the door won't be leaky as well. I am getting about 9 dBs per octave with a 2100 cubic feet sealed room and treatments. I have 3 walls and the floor made with concrete. Let's put it this way, CapS2 will be flatter to 5hz for sure but lose 6 dBs above 20hz. The question is will you use that 6 dBs? I would rather be flat to 5hz then be flat to 20hz and have 6 dBs of headroom. Now the OS will still get you 5hz material but 6 dBs down. All I know is when I am flat to 5 hz with low end boost it makes the system seem more powerful but I have 20hz and up covered.

Part of shopping, especially when you have time, it seems the mind leans one way, then the other. As far as what you will finally purchase. I have been researching the CapS2's and now it seems I have slightly bent that way. I wont be listening at 136db with dual OS's. 130 aint bad with dual caps2's either. But mostly at this point its the size factor. I know the weigh the same and the OS is like 10 inches taller, but nearly twice the depth. Considering moving hear and there I like the smaller cabinet for room and placability factor. And its the same drivers. I asked the sealed room as that will someday be the final home of the subs.

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post #303 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 10:43 AM
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That is what I have been saying. A Cap S2 can play loud above 20hz and duals would certainly be able to play reference and beyond above 20hz as well. I mean if dual Cap S2s can play 133 dBs already why get dual OS to play 139 dBs? I will use my room as an example because I know my room gain profile which adds to any sub. Say an OS can hit 133 dBs from 20hz and up. At 10 hz I will be able to hit 121 dBs. Now a CapS2 can hit 127 dBs from 20hz and up and hit 127 dBs at 10hz! Now both subs can hit reference in my room but the sealed cap is much smaller and have headroom throughout the band, the OS will only have headroom above 20hz. Reference level bass with redirected bass will ask for over 121 dBs from time to time so the OS may not always provide what I need at the lower frequencies where the CapS2 will. That extra headroom will never be used over 20hz. The room gain one gets is not as important as your goals because no matter what more displacement is needed down low and even outside sealed subs will play under 12hz louder. If one wants to play 130 dBs of music then the OS is the obvious choice because it can do it!

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post #304 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

That is what I have been saying. A Cap S2 can play loud above 20hz and duals would certainly be able to play reference and beyond above 20hz as well. I mean if dual Cap S2s can play 133 dBs already why get dual OS to play 139 dBs? I will use my room as an example because I know my room gain profile which adds to any sub. Say an OS can hit 133 dBs from 20hz and up. At 10 hz I will be able to hit 121 dBs. Now a CapS2 can hit 127 dBs from 20hz and up and hit 127 dBs at 10hz! Now both subs can hit reference in my room but the sealed cap is much smaller and have headroom throughout the band, the OS will only have headroom above 20hz. Reference level bass with redirected bass will ask for over 121 dBs from time to time so the OS may not always provide what I need at the lower frequencies where the CapS2 will. That extra headroom will never be used over 20hz. The room gain one gets is not as important as your goals because no matter what more displacement is needed down low and even outside sealed subs will play under 12hz louder. If one wants to play 130 dBs of music then the OS is the obvious choice because it can do it!

Sometimes us noobs need to think it through for ourselves. smile.gif
Although your comments caused me to think it through

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post #305 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 12:45 PM
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The goal should be what sub can play loud enough for my needs in my room. The sound quality will be top notch either way.

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post #306 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The goal should be what sub can play loud enough for my needs in my room. The sound quality will be top notch either way.

I understand, the only problem is they will be in a temporary home when bought. Another reason for the smaller form

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post #307 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 01:35 PM
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Dual Cap S1's do it for me. biggrin.gif
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post #308 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Part of shopping, especially when you have time, it seems the mind leans one way, then the other. As far as what you will finally purchase. I have been researching the CapS2's and now it seems I have slightly bent that way. I wont be listening at 136db with dual OS's. 130 aint bad with dual caps2's either. But mostly at this point its the size factor. I know the weigh the same and the OS is like 10 inches taller, but nearly twice the depth. Considering moving hear and there I like the smaller cabinet for room and placability factor. And its the same drivers. I asked the sealed room as that will someday be the final home of the subs.

If you are leaning sealed now, I'd recommend you go DIY. One could get close to what I have with $6K.

Could throw together 8 x 18's (if you already have the tools handy) for close to the cost of a S2... Just sayin. Broken record...lol
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post #309 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 08:04 PM
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What pop said!

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post #310 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 08:59 PM
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You guys are gonna kill me lol! I'm not opposed to DIY. I don't personally own tools but have access. To be honest I feel hesitant because there are gaps in knowledge, although I can learn. Like how does the dsp work? I understand Jeff and mark set the EQ on all there own subs? Is it a general learning curve like REW? It must be considering the vast DIY guys on AVS. I also feel hesitant because it seems like shooting in the dark as far as how the finished product will perform. I know I can take money, buy caps and this is what I will get. I also remember a recent debate on the master bass list of movies forum about the value of the cap S2. The amp cost, driver, enclosure all would cost not a whole lot less than the 3k. I'm sure you guys will have opinions about that. Mk I think you were involved in that debate although I could be wrong. Also what about the driver? Are Jeff's not of higher quality than the typical $200 dollar sub? Can you buy Jeff's online? Lots of questions I know. I just wanna make the final woofage setup amazing as I plan on it being the one for a long time. Hence why I am willing to pay money. Although I do like the thought of less costs.

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post #311 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 09:00 PM
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On a side not what was your final spl ability with 18 pop?

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post #312 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 09:36 PM
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I was involved in that discussion. See here is how I see it, we have so many discussion about his amps sound the same etc.. But for some reason using better amps all of a sudden matter when discussing powered commercial subs. To me if it sounds the same who cares if the amp is cheaper or you EQ'd at the LP rather than within the cabinet. I know carp loved his submersives and many have said they are one of the best sounding and performing subs even compared to a sealed Cap. Yet when he built a dual opposed Dayton driver sub he could not tell the difference except the 18's had more output. The Submersive has a better built cabinet and much more expensive amp but if one can not tell the difference then you tell me. Yet again we hear how the parts are so expensive but if I say I have a krell amp people say I wasted money. I say it goes both ways.

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post #313 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I was involved in that discussion. See here is how I see it, we have so many discussion about his amps sound the same etc.. But for some reason using better amps all of a sudden matter when discussing powered commercial subs. To me if it sounds the same who cares if the amp is cheaper or you EQ'd at the LP rather than within the cabinet. I know carp loved his submersives and many have said they are one of the best sounding and performing subs even compared to a sealed Cap. Yet when he built a dual opposed Dayton driver sub he could not tell the difference except the 18's had more output. The Submersive has a better built cabinet and much more expensive amp but if one can not tell the difference then you tell me. Yet again we hear how the parts are so expensive but if I say I have a krell amp people say I wasted money. I say it goes both ways.

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post #314 of 689 Old 07-02-2013, 11:08 PM
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I guess we can say the same for speakers too then. DIY. I got a good while. Plenty of time to learn and come to an rational decision. biggrin.gif

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post #315 of 689 Old 07-03-2013, 01:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

You guys are gonna kill me lol! I'm not opposed to DIY. I don't personally own tools but have access. To be honest I feel hesitant because there are gaps in knowledge, although I can learn. Like how does the dsp work? I understand Jeff and mark set the EQ on all there own subs? Is it a general learning curve like REW? It must be considering the vast DIY guys on AVS. I also feel hesitant because it seems like shooting in the dark as far as how the finished product will perform. I know I can take money, buy caps and this is what I will get. I also remember a recent debate on the master bass list of movies forum about the value of the cap S2. The amp cost, driver, enclosure all would cost not a whole lot less than the 3k. I'm sure you guys will have opinions about that. Mk I think you were involved in that debate although I could be wrong. Also what about the driver? Are Jeff's not of higher quality than the typical $200 dollar sub? Can you buy Jeff's online? Lots of questions I know. I just wanna make the final woofage setup amazing as I plan on it being the one for a long time. Hence why I am willing to pay money. Although I do like the thought of less costs.

You have 8 months to learn all of that! I'm driving now, so i'm going to try to hit all of your points above best I can. First, your finished product may not look as polished, but will perform in line with what many many others have experienced. Meaning, a 4ft^3ish sealed box + SI 18" sub = the goods.

My take away from the debate on the Master bass thread... Bottom-line: If you limit yourself to the physical footprint of the S2, you will be hard pressed to achieve the same performance for the same price. In fact I believe there are only one or two drivers (off the shelf) in the world that would give you a response worth a damn using such a small amount of air volume. The LMS-U is the only one I can think of ATM.

That said, increase your footprint tollerance and it opens more (cheaper) alternatives.

One other thing that I love about DIY is that it forces you to learn about things that even 95% of other AVS'ers don't take the time to learn about. If you went DIY, when it was all said and done all of those guys that were in your shoes now would be calling you up to calibrate their systems using your fancy measurement gear and DSP's... I was in your shoes about this time last year.

I wanted the ultimate, so I went DIY. FYI. It would take at least 4 S2's to come close to what I have now.

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post #316 of 689 Old 07-03-2013, 01:17 PM
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I wanted the ultimate, so I went DIY. FYI. It would take at least 4 S2's to come close to what I have now.

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And it still wouldn't look nearly as cool. biggrin.gif

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post #317 of 689 Old 07-03-2013, 07:07 PM
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You have 8 months to learn all of that! I'm driving now, so i'm going to try to hit all of your points above best I can. First, your finished product may not look as polished, but will perform in line with what many many others have experienced. Meaning, a 4ft^3ish sealed box + SI 18" sub = the goods.

My take away from the debate on the Master bass thread... Bottom-line: If you limit yourself to the physical footprint of the S2, you will be hard pressed to achieve the same performance for the same price. In fact I believe there are only one or two drivers (off the shelf) in the world that would give you a response worth a damn using such a small amount of air volume. The LMS-U is the only one I can think of ATM.

That said, increase your footprint tollerance and it opens more (cheaper) alternatives.

One other thing that I love about DIY is that it forces you to learn about things that even 95% of other AVS'ers don't take the time to learn about. If you went DIY, when it was all said and done all of those guys that were in your shoes now would be calling you up to calibrate their systems using your fancy measurement gear and DSP's... I was in your shoes about this time last year.

I wanted the ultimate, so I went DIY. FYI. It would take at least 4 S2's to come close to what I have now.

tongue.gif

I did build a small enclosure for a Boston SPG 555 1000watt sub for my truck before. I took it to a friends house who is a carpenter and he beveled all the edges, looked nice!

So is it fair to say that two Stereo Integrity 18's is some what equivalent to an LMS 5400 or the 18 driver Jeff uses? For example if I built two same style cabinets as the cap S2 with 4 SI subs would that be comparable to one Cap S2? Even though I don't make tons of money I am still the kind of person who will spend more for quality.

So we know the sealed caps will play flat into the single digits. (This is really going to expose my knowledge level) that is because of the amp's ability to output power at low levels, the sealed enclosure, and the dsp tune? Also the excursion ability, which leads to my next question.

A driver can only have so much excursion. At ULF frequencies we need lots of excursion capability and serious amp power. So every driver is really limited to thier excursion ability in relation to playing flat into single digits correct? For example, once with my HSU 15 I played the pod emergence scene. I bumped it like 6db. I briefly heard it bottom out lightly and backed off the volume. Now that 15H driver can only play so low with its excursion correct? If we gave it more amp power it would have not been good. (I think it has like 1400 watt short term burst available on the15H).

As you probably can tell there is a streak in me that you guys have. Even if I went JTR subs I would still end up building at least a dual SI 18 cab for the sake of fun, learning, and satisfaction.

In the DIY world what is the selection of drivers available? Can we use any sub driver available? Car audio, pa, whatever?

I do like the smaller footprint idea considering, like I have mentioned, that I will be living at a rental for awhile after the fiancé and I get married. We have had discussions about where we want to live permantley and the possibility of moving. Which would mean another rental until we buy. But I am open to a bigger footprint but not too big. I would make dual OS's happen if I wanted to as far as a barameter for space tolerance. smile.gif. But I really do like the thought of the S2 footprint. That all the bass I would ever need at any level would be in the form of about 16.25x21

Is there a thread for DSP's that is comparable to something like REW? Where you can learn how to use them, etc.

And lastly thanks for all of everyone's input. I'm sure it's enjoyable to participate in these forums for you but I do value the shared knowledge personally!

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post #318 of 689 Old 07-03-2013, 10:10 PM - Thread Starter
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LMS-U will beat a Cap, driver-per-driver.

Dual SI 18's will edge the LMS-U in all but the very lowest fqs. Check D-B to verify. That said, your logic is sound.

Driving now, so can't go into much more detail.
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post #319 of 689 Old 07-03-2013, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

So is it fair to say that two Stereo Integrity 18's is some what equivalent to an LMS 5400 or the 18 driver Jeff uses? For example if I built two same style cabinets as the cap S2 with 4 SI subs would that be comparable to one Cap S2? Even though I don't make tons of money I am still the kind of person who will spend more for quality.

If I was going to build a dual driver box (which I did) I would go dual opposed. It allows you to cut the volume a bit and also allows you to skimp on the cabinet construction a bit as well saving you some money. With a dual opposed build it isn't essential to go crazy with the box since the back waves will cancel each other out, negating cabinet resonance, or at least a lot of it. I think 4 of them would be at least equal above 25ish hz. One thing I'll say about the SI subs vs the LMSU or the JTR drivers is that they'll give you a ton for a little, but they do have their limitations. Below 30Hz the distortion isn't even in the same ballpark as the LMSU and while short term, it will best the LMSU, long term power compression tests show that the LMSU and I'm guessing the JTR can take a lot more of a beating continuously and maintain their composure.
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So we know the sealed caps will play flat into the single digits. (This is really going to expose my knowledge level) that is because of the amp's ability to output power at low levels, the sealed enclosure, and the dsp tune? Also the excursion ability, which leads to my next question.

That's due being sealed (no tuning FR that is can't play below), power (being sealed it takes an amazing amount of power to produce low frequencies), and a buttload of DSP to counter act the natural rolloff of a sealed sub and to tame any room inadequacies.
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A driver can only have so much excursion. At ULF frequencies we need lots of excursion capability and serious amp power. So every driver is really limited to thier excursion ability in relation to playing flat into single digits correct? For example, once with my HSU 15 I played the pod emergence scene. I bumped it like 6db. I briefly heard it bottom out lightly and backed off the volume. Now that 15H driver can only play so low with its excursion correct? If we gave it more amp power it would have not been good. (I think it has like 1400 watt short term burst available on the15H).

If it was the VTF, then the sub is also limited by the fact that it's ported. It won't get down into single digits and like it, even with the variable tuning. The reason is that with a ported sub the air pressure in the cabinet and the air pressure in the port are what's giving the sub its restorative force in addition to its own suspension and motor, where in a sealed sub, the trapped air aids the sub. If you press on the cone of a sealed sub vs a ported sub, the ported sub's cone will be easily moved back and forth with your hand, while a sealed sub shouldn't move much at all. For sealed subs you do need huge amounts of excursion coupled with ungodly amounts of power to get loud down low, plus DSP.
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As you probably can tell there is a streak in me that you guys have. Even if I went JTR subs I would still end up building at least a dual SI 18 cab for the sake of fun, learning, and satisfaction.

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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

In the DIY world what is the selection of drivers available? Can we use any sub driver available? Car audio, pa, whatever?

There are a ton of drivers out there, but only a handful are recognized as the elite drivers, depending on what configuration you're looking to do, what your budget is, and what your design goals are.
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I do like the smaller footprint idea considering, like I have mentioned, that I will be living at a rental for awhile after the fiancé and I get married. We have had discussions about where we want to live permantley and the possibility of moving. Which would mean another rental until we buy. But I am open to a bigger footprint but not too big. I would make dual OS's happen if I wanted to as far as a barameter for space tolerance. smile.gif. But I really do like the thought of the S2 footprint. That all the bass I would ever need at any level would be in the form of about 16.25x21

Dual opposed. Small footprint, big output.
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Is there a thread for DSP's that is comparable to something like REW? Where you can learn how to use them, etc.

Read the REW manual and join home theater shack. They have a great manual and a tremendous support community.

FWIW, I think I'm going to be moving in an entirely new direction for my next subwoofer. I'm sacrificing a little bit of airspace for being able to run this future sub off of a high quality receiver's worth of power. Something like a 6 foot tall, 3ft deep single fold TL. Should move a ton of air on next to no power compared to you know what pop wink.gif
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post #320 of 689 Old 07-04-2013, 11:13 AM
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Thanks for your responses fuzz! I was just thinking by time I am all done I will owe several of you! If you lived closer I would certainly buy you a beer, dinner, coffee. Whatever!

I found this comment in a very recent PSA sub post and it is also a very good reason for a smaller footprint.

Quote 1
"That's probably the source of your problems. I'm sure you've got your reasons for wanting to do so, but when you fight the law(s of physics) the law(s of physics) always wins. You can put subs where they look the best, or where it's most convenient, but it's only pure luck if that happens to coincide with where they work the best."

Quote 2
"Subs are kind of like cats! They go where they want to go instead of where you tell them... well if you want the best response. Now if they/subs were like your average dog, they would always want to please. That’s my animal analogy anyway."

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post #321 of 689 Old 07-04-2013, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Good ol' Bill Fritz and...Not sure who the second quote was from.

One thing I've also learned over that past year is that if you pack enough subs into a small space, placement isn't nearly important...

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post #322 of 689 Old 07-04-2013, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Good ol' Bill Fritz and...Not sure who the second quote was from.

One thing I've also learned over that past year is that if you pack enough subs into a small space, placement isn't nearly important...

biggrin.gif

Agreed. Place a subwoofer every 3 feet along all 4 wall and maybe hand a few from the ceiling, then stack them 5 feet high and you'll never have to worry about placement again.

Actually, the idea of vertical subwoofer arrays is quite interesting............I'm off.
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post #323 of 689 Old 07-04-2013, 05:54 PM
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What are your thoughts on the PSA Triax. Looks like the same amp as the Cap S2/OS. But obviously 3-15 inch drivers

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post #324 of 689 Old 07-06-2013, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

What are your thoughts on the PSA Triax. Looks like the same amp as the Cap S2/OS. But obviously 3-15 inch drivers

Cool design, monster of a subwoofer. I don't think I'd give up my dual opposed LMS Ultra for it, but if I didn't have it I'd be interested.
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post #325 of 689 Old 07-08-2013, 09:07 PM
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Anyone active on Home Theater Shack?

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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Anyone active on Home Theater Shack?

Yes, why?
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post #327 of 689 Old 07-08-2013, 09:28 PM
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This started off when i was 15
Logitech z-5500
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welling ws602
polk psw110
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This is my 2 year journey through subwoofers.
My 2 year plan is to get another PB12 NSD and once i move out of home
Dual PB13 Ultra Subs
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post #328 of 689 Old 07-08-2013, 09:29 PM
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I thought Id give it a try. There is a PSA Triax giveaway thread in which I asked a question. Having been a long day I mis read the first post. In a PM I was asked if I was smoking something and would be banned if I posted again...

I was like, "Damn!."

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post #329 of 689 Old 07-08-2013, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

I thought Id give it a try. There is a PSA Triax giveaway thread in which I asked a question. Having been a long day I mis read the first post. In a PM I was asked if I was smoking something and would be banned if I posted again...

I was like, "Damn!."

Dang that doesn't sound like the Shack.. mind if I ask what you posted? smile.gif Is this the post?
Quote:
You are saying opposite things from post 1 and 2...
post 1 says, "This is the Qualification Thread ONLY... and you should only post in it once you are qualified.

post 2 says, "If you post in this thread and you are not qualified, your post will be deleted.

please explain...

Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/68366-power-sound-audio-triax-giveaway-3.html#ixzz2YWOStKyY
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post #330 of 689 Old 07-09-2013, 12:06 AM
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Yes that was the post. I totally misread and apologized for misreading. I just don't see why a host would ask me if I am smoking something, telling me I will be banned and saying they will not pick up my comon sense for me and perhaps there is no place on this forum for me if thats the case. Its whatever, I don't really care. I was just making an attempt to spread out a bit and made a stupid comment. 9 hours of stacking heavy bearings and cutting some chain will make one tired with no lunch! Happy SPL's!!!biggrin.gif

"Are you smoking something or what... clearly the instruction explain that you are not to post in this thread until you are qualified and that if you do post in it and you are NOT qualified, your post will be deleted. Therefore, since you are NOT qualified, your post has been deleted.

Do not post in the thread again until you are qualified or you will be banned.

In this same qualification thread that you keep posting in that it clearly says that you are not to post in until you are qualified, there is a comment as follows:

This is the Qualification Thread ONLY... and you should only post in it once you are qualified. Please read the qualifications carefully. For comments or questions, please use the Power Sound Audio Triax Giveaway discussion thread.

Therefore your previous post that was silly to begin with, was moved to the discussion thread and answered. If you are having this much of a problem grasping this, I am afraid this forum won't be for you. We simply cannot do common sense thinking for folks."

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