Subwoofer Ownership – Your Path to Satisfaction - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 689 Old 07-12-2013, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock 
Why did you have to contact them for the information? Was it not readily available on their website?
Nope. It wasn't on their website, or in the owner's manual.

To their credit, they did provide a very thorough response to my inquiry:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DefTech CS rep 
Thanks for your recent email to Definitive Technology. The published specifications on our loudspeakers (and subwoofers) list their overall frequency response. (This simply means that a given speaker (or subwoofer) will respond to these frequencies.)

Unfortunately, not all ± 3db frequency response specifications you'll read are measured under the same conditions. (Meaning, the measurements from one loudspeaker company may have been conducted under one set of conditions, while the measurements from another company may have been taken under a completely different set of conditions.)

There are no industry standards that all loudspeakers companies follow. Specifically, where do you place the measuring microphone (on the floor, or suspended directly in front of the speaker - and at what distance). Where do you place the speaker, on a stand or on the floor. Do you take room reflections into consideration? If you don't, it's difficult to accurately measure a bipolar speaker.......

So, be careful when you compare specs from one company to another. If at all possible, I'd recommend auditioning our loudspeakers (and any others that you're considering) and trust your ears.

With this in mind, in our anechoic chamber, we've measured the following specification:

ProSub200TL: ± 3db 26hz - 142 hz

This measurement was taken with a microphone placed 1 meter away from the front of the subwoofer (which was placed on the floor). There was no reflective sound from the walls. However, there was a sound reflection from the floor.


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post #362 of 689 Old 07-12-2013, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Don't think I've seen that link....?

Just seen this

http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html

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post #363 of 689 Old 07-12-2013, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Probably this one:
http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html
Note at the top that the calculator is only applicable for a sealed or IB subwoofer.

Didn't see that one either lol!

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post #364 of 689 Old 07-13-2013, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Why would you want a sub with the same response as posted above just with an additional 6db of headroom (at best).

Honestly it depends on what dynamic range it has and how well controlled the bass is. Personally I am not too concerned with bass below 20 Hz, so that extension doesn't bother me very much. I would gladly trade <20 Hz extension for tighter bass and more headroom.
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post #365 of 689 Old 07-14-2013, 11:50 PM
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So I was thinking...right...anyway, shouldn't any basic response graph be measured at max levels? For example the OS graph that I believe is originally from Jeff that plays flat at like 123db down to 25hz then rolls off. Should we see this rather than the typical 85db or so?

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post #366 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

So I was thinking...right...anyway, shouldn't any basic response graph be measured at max levels? For example the OS graph that I believe is originally from Jeff that plays flat at like 123db down to 25hz then rolls off. Should we see this rather than the typical 85db or so?
The standard for measurements is 1w/1m. It may not be the best standard, but it is what it is. The standard for maximum output is 'calculated maximum SPL' which simply adds a linear full power calculation to the base SPL, and that calculation is worthless, as linear response to full power is virtually impossible.
The only company that does a base SPL chart that reflects real world use is Danley. They measure at 10m with 100w, then extrapolate that to a 1w/1m result by deducting 20dB.

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post #367 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 05:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

The standard for measurements is 1w/1m. It may not be the best standard, but it is what it is. The standard for maximum output is 'calculated maximum SPL' which simply adds a linear full power calculation to the base SPL, and that calculation is worthless, as linear response to full power is virtually impossible.
The only company that does a base SPL chart that reflects real world use is Danley. They measure at 10m with 100w, then extrapolate that to a 1w/1m result by deducting 20dB.

Bill,

Respect your input, I do.

Shake your hand one day, I will.

 

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post #368 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

We got guys on the definitive technology speaker forum having the revelation that the powered towers, 10 or 12 inch subs with 300 or 455 watt amps, can't play down to 18hz as DT claims. There was a graph posted of a steep roll of at 35hz...

Seems the #1 "problem" with Definitive Technology is that a percentage of people cannot read...or at least read and comprehend. They simply supply a figure that a loudspeaker will produce down to. Matter of fact, most of what I recollect from their advertisements state that, specifically. Perhaps they wrongly assume that if someone understands what 34hz really is they're also sharp enough to know that a bookshelf speaker the size of a large lunchbox won't be reproducing it at 90+ dbs. rolleyes.gif

That said, their bi-polar series of years back DID have excellent bass (read bass, not subsonic response...especially when you began to consider they didn't house a single driver over 6 1/2". As a guy who has owned DOZENS of makes and models of loudspeakers I am confidently knowledgeable with the fact that they make excellent products that are simply not inexpensive enough for many in the DIY crowd. If they're not at the top of the value ladder in the B&M industry, they're very close.

The methodology of how they list the bass response of a given loudspeaker has been in place for decades and no real news to anyone, but the "re-unearthing" of it over and over again on AVS continues to draw the predictable, staid, and well, dumb: "DT's the most fraudulent, dishonest, and even criminal entity in audio".

Yeah, ok. Go figure.

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post #369 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Seems the #1 "problem" with Definitive Technology is that a percentage of people cannot read...or at least read and comprehend. They simply supply a figure that a loudspeaker will produce down to. Matter of fact, most of what I recollect from their advertisements state that, specifically. Perhaps they wrongly assume that if someone understands what 34hz really is they're also sharp enough to know that a bookshelf speaker the size of a large lunchbox won't be reproducing it at 90+ dbs. rolleyes.gif

That said, their bi-polar series of years back DID have excellent bass (read bass, not subwoofer) response...especially when you began to consider they didn't house a single driver over 6 1/2". As a guy who has owned DOZENS of makes and models of loudspeakers I am confidently knowledgeable with the fact that they make excellent products that are simply not inexpensive enough for many in the DIY crowd. If they're not at the top of the value ladder in the B&M industry, they're very close.

The methodology of how they list the bass response of a given loudspeaker has been in place for decades and no real news to anyone, but the "re-unearthing" of it over and over again on AVS continues to draw the predictable, staid, and well, dumb: "DT's the most fraudulent, dishonest, and even criminal entity in audio".

Yeah, ok. Go figure.

James

James, dishonest information from any manufacturer for any consumer product is not right. It's misleading. This recent discussion of mis-information was due to actual measurement links on the 8080 powered tower falling at 35hz instead of the claimed 18hz. There is no other way to put it than falsified information and leads many people astray due to their lack of research. Whether its regurgitated on avs over and over doesn't matter. Really that's what you who have been on here for years do is talk about the same things over and over with us up and coming learning ones. Or someone more knowledgable than you regurgitates information that helps you learn.

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post #370 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

The standard for measurements is 1w/1m. It may not be the best standard, but it is what it is. The standard for maximum output is 'calculated maximum SPL' which simply adds a linear full power calculation to the base SPL, and that calculation is worthless, as linear response to full power is virtually impossible.
The only company that does a base SPL chart that reflects real world use is Danley. They measure at 10m with 100w, then extrapolate that to a 1w/1m result by deducting 20dB.

Yes I guess with 1watt/1meter we can calculate headroom. I was just thinking it would be helpful that way people would know what the sub is capable of. Of course we don't sit at 1 meter either but we could calculate that as well. For example, this way we would know how loud and if a sub can play reference level bass from the MLP. Like of we seen a graph that an Cap S2 can play 126db at 1watt/1meter from 100hz down to 25hz then begins to roll off. We could then know what we have at our disposal. I feel I have terribly described what I am trying to say smile.gif but this graph of the OS is what got me thinking


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post #371 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Yes I guess with 1watt/1meter we can calculate headroom. I was just thinking it would be helpful that way people would know what the sub is capable of.
You can get a reasonably close calculated maximum output if you have the driver specs and know how to use speaker modeling software. It calculates maximum output based on thermal power handling and excursion capacity, whichever is less. What it cannot do is account for thermal power compression, and that's a big consideration with very high power drivers, which can have as much as 6dB of power compression losses at full power. It would be nice if all manufacturers posted measured maximum output charts, but when few even post 1w/1m charts don't go holding your breath.

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post #372 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

You can get a reasonably close calculated maximum output if you have the driver specs and know how to use speaker modeling software. It calculates maximum output based on thermal power handling and excursion capacity, whichever is less. What it cannot do is account for thermal power compression, and that's a big consideration with very high power drivers, which can have as much as 6dB of power compression losses at full power. It would be nice if all manufacturers posted measured maximum output charts, but when few even post 1w/1m charts don't go holding your breath.

Thanks Bill smile.gif

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post #373 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 02:14 PM
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What do you think about this statement talking about the DT powered tower with a 10, 300 watt amp and an additional 2-10 inch passive radiators

"The subwoofer section of the BP-8060ST is fairly kicking given the speaker’s compact size. Low bass output (40-63 Hz) averages 110.5 dB and ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) output averages just 103.6 dB — numbers that put some midsize subwoofers to shame."

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post #374 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 02:57 PM
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"The subwoofer section of the BP-8060ST is fairly kicking given the speaker’s compact size. Low bass output (40-63 Hz) averages 110.5 dB and ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) output averages just 103.6 dB — numbers that put some midsize subwoofers to shame."
A bit overstated. You can only get so much from a ten. As for passives, they work in the same fashion as ports, it's just a different method of doing it. The output is still limited by the excursion of the driver. I seriously doubt the claimed output levels were measured. Your average 86dB sensitive speaker with 300 watts applied will reach 110dB at full power assuming that there's no thermal power compression and that xmax is not exceeded, but you know what happens when you assume. rolleyes.gif

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post #375 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 03:41 PM
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James, dishonest information from any manufacturer for any consumer product is not right. It's misleading. This recent discussion of mis-information was due to actual measurement links on the 8080 powered tower falling at 35hz instead of the claimed 18hz. There is no other way to put it than falsified information and leads many people astray due to their lack of research. Whether its regurgitated on avs over and over doesn't matter. Really that's what you who have been on here for years do is talk about the same things over and over with us up and coming learning ones. Or someone more knowledgable than you regurgitates information that helps you learn.

Ok, I guess I'll try again.

Show me the claims made by DT. The problem has been- again- that people simply do not properly understand what has (or has not) been contended.

Stating a loudspeaker has "response" at 18hz means just that: it has response. Whether down 3, 5, 10, 20, or 50dbs is really immaterial.

If DT DID indeed make a claim of 18hz output that's -3/6 dbs and it didn't measure as such, that's a different issue entirely. Please show it to me as I'd be anxious to see it myself.

But until then I'm going to continue to assume that people are simply "unhappy" with (or completely fail to understand) the fact that they state that their speakers have response much below the point where they fall off 3dbs. And that's not lying or being dishonest, it's simply not giving you what you want.

And on their own website they list "total frequency response 18hz-30khz".

So again, if it indeed has reponse in that range they're not lying about anything...if you REALLY need the -3db response contact the manufacturer with a 5 second email. If its omittance really bothers you so much, take your business elsewhere.

The consumer has a responsibility to secure the information they need before making a choice. A -3db point of a speaker isn't immune to such a reality.

James

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #376 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Ok, I guess I'll try again.

Show me the claims made by DT. The problem has been- again- that people simply do not properly understand what has (or has not) been contended.

Stating a loudspeaker has "response" at 18hz means just that: it has response. Whether down 3, 5, 10, 20, or 50dbs is really immaterial.

If DT DID indeed make a claim of 18hz output that's -3/6 dbs and it didn't measure as such, that's a different issue entirely. Please show it to me as I'd be anxious to see it myself.

But until then I'm going to continue to assume that people are simply "unhappy" with the fact that they state that their speakers have response much below the point where they fall off 3dbs. And that's not lying or being dishonest.

James

If you tell someone 99% of the truth it is still a lie. Technically if they say there is response at 18hz and it is 29db then no they are not lying. But that is shady information if not specified so. Really if we are honest the -3db point should be required for speakers and subs.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/definitive-technology-bp-8080st-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

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post #377 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 04:05 PM
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^i understand your point James but it doesn't mean there is misleading information given

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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

If you tell someone 99% of the truth it is still a lie. Technically if they say there is response at 18hz and it is 29db then no they are not lying. But that is shady information if not specified so. Really if we are honest the -3db point should be required for speakers and subs.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/definitive-technology-bp-8080st-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

No, it's really not. And what you think should be required is again- irrelevant.

But I'm done trying to convince...think whatever you need to.

James

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post #379 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

^i understand your point James but it doesn't mean there is misleading information given

It's only misleading if you don't understand it.

James

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post #380 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

A bit overstated. You can only get so much from a ten. As for passives, they work in the same fashion as ports, it's just a different method of doing it. The output is still limited by the excursion of the driver. I seriously doubt the claimed output levels were measured. Your average 86dB sensitive speaker with 300 watts applied will reach 110dB at full power assuming that there's no thermal power compression and that xmax is not exceeded, but you know what happens when you assume. rolleyes.gif

If they didn't measure it, where did the figures- to the nearest tenth of a decibel- emanate from? They just pulled them out of the sky?

Seeing that you doubt the claimed output was measured I'd like to know what the more reasonable explanation is.

But here's the results with some of the testing methodology, perhaps you can contact him with your reservations. Butterworth's a long in the tooth respectable guy as far as I know so I'm certain he'd be happy to help.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/review-definitive-technology-bipolar-supertower-speaker-system?page=0,4

James

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post #381 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Ha... Here are the specs for my old DefTech reference:

http://www.definitivetech.com/products/supercube-reference

Yeah...11-200Hz "response." In the overview it states "effortless" extension down to 11Hz.

Here is the actual in room response. Such exaggeration turned me off permanently from ALL of Deftech's products.
DefinitiveTechnologySupercubeReference_zpsf4230e1a.jpg

Send your DefTech friends over this way...

tongue.gif

The response posted about looks NO WHERE near the low-end of their claimed response... at any db level. Non existent...

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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Don't feel bad for them. It would be great if information such as this actually started effecting their bottomline. It would force them to adapt (be honest) or fail.

They, like some other companies, play on the ignorance of their target market. Honestly, how may response graphs have you seen on the DefTech thread? How many owners of DefTech products do you think have truly heard "effortless" response down to 11Hz? What are the chances that anyone within their target demographic/audience would take the time to download an 11Hz sine wave to verify the response? How many DefTech owners do you think actually own measurement gear?

Also, I didn't see an actual output claim associated with their claimed response. <---Something I honestly think might have been removed at some point because I could have sworn to recall seeing something like 121db output claim.

That said, maybe the DefTech Reference can, in fact, effortlessly respond to 11Hz...but at -60db from their max output? Who knows... I don’t care enough to try to investigate. In a way, I have to thank DefTech because my experience with their subs was one of the primary driving forces behind my quest for the truth!
Why did you have to contact them for the information? Was it not readily available on their website? Does one have to call the company for the +/-3db point of all of their products?
I'd be willing to bet their sales reps are extensions of their actual products. No balls...

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So again, if it indeed has reponse in that range they're not lying about anything...if you REALLY need the -3db response contact the manufacturer with a 5 second email. If its omittance really bothers you so much, take your business elsewhere.

In the case of the Supercube Reference... The graph above supports the point (false claim) jlpowell is trying to make ... I guess we would need to test it in several different rooms to validate if we could potentially see any type of response at 11Hz. Maybe it's possible?

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The consumer has a responsibility to secure the information they need before making a choice. A -3db point of a speaker isn't immune to such a reality.

James

Back when I purchased my DefTech subwoofer, I didn't even know what a -3db point was. I would not doubt if that is the case for most casual AVSers that visit the DefTech thread and are exposed to nothing but glowing reviews from other owners of DefTech products.

I understand you are playing devils advocate for arguements sake, but I have to ask you your honest opinion... Value is critical, so do you see any value in DefTech products now that you have gained enough knowledge of the hobby to put DefTech's claims into perspective? Not my intent to get into a pissing contest... For the money, would you recommend a product like the DefTech Reference?

Bottom of this post compares a Submersive HP and the SVS 20-39 PCI response vs the DefTech Reference.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434901/northeast-october-20th-gtg-results-thread/0_100#post_22512892

 

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post #382 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 05:30 PM
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James lets be honest...I have been through nearly the entire Captivator thread...it seems you have a knack for disagreeing. I mean no harm or personal attack. smile.gif

All of America's marketing is essentially false advertising. Partial claims, inflated numbers. I am a researcher when I buy products. Getting most of the truth and then making a decision on what product is the most percentage of the truth that it claims. With speakers though you buy them to "HEAR" them. If a speaker lists its frequency response as 18hz-30khz and is only audible from 28hz-16khZ then that is MISLEADING information. And obviously where it matters as lots of movies have power bass right up the 25hz alley. Yes it can play 25hz technically but -30db down? Again you buy SPEAK-ERS to hear them.
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post #383 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 05:35 PM
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I'm not playing devil's advocate for anyone and certainly not arguing for the sake of it.

I'm telling people to read closer ad understand what they're reading...not what they "expect" to find.

Do I find DTs to offer value? Seeing I have an 11 speaker surround suite of them that should prolly give you your answer. Some of their older BP 10, 20's and 30's and super towers offer super performance on the used market for a relative pittance.

Are they the last word in subwoofers and could they EVER compete with ID and DIY? Of course not.

They have morphed into a bit of a different company in the last 7 or so years. They have scaled back their size and output, generally. Drives the 130db gang nuts, to be sure.

They now make great-performing speakers for folks who have to balance their AV passions with the real world that spouses and offspring live in. In small to medium rooms they perform (and measure) fantastically well. But now I guess we're not even supposed to believe 3rd party measurements.

I owned a DT reference and yes, I could recommend it...to someone who's looking for a good looking, small form factor who doesn't need a ton of output...it can be had far below its msrp so that means little to me.

And ummmm, crucially, it looks like you posted an 85-90db response graph that shows 65-70db response at ~17-18hz. It's clearly nothing near max output which could yield "some" 11hz response. Key word again being "some". But then, subwoofers with substantial 11hz output are up there with 60 homerun seasons.

Does it out-output some ID options? Absolutely not, but some will never understand that different products have different goals and different markets. Some people will never see 90dbs in their room, nevermind 120.

I've since moved on from it and other products that don't fit my needs, but that doesn't mean they don't suit others extremely well.

James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #384 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

James lets be honest...I have been through nearly the entire Captivator thread...it seems you have a knack for disagreeing. I mean no harm or personal attack. smile.gif

All of America's marketing is essentially false advertising. Partial claims, inflated numbers. I am a researcher when I buy products. Getting most of the truth and then making a decision on what product is the most percentage of the truth that it claims. With speakers though you buy them to "HEAR" them. If a speaker lists its frequency response as 18hz-30khz and is only audible from 28hz-16khZ then that is MISLEADING information. And obviously where it matters as lots of movies have power bass right up the 25hz alley. Yes it can play 25hz technically but -30db down? Again you buy SPEAK-ERS to hear them.

Well if you read the entire Captivator thread (one of the best subs I've ever owned) then you really must have a handle on me, lol.

But crucially, it takes two to tango and people who pull that card are usually as guilty of it as anyone...but I'll avoid casting such stones, here.

I don't mean anything other than for people to be more thorough. Fact of the matter is that if I had more money or time for DIY I would dump my DTs and move on. I don't think they walk on water...they just offer a lot for little on the used market. Again, the BP towers.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #385 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 06:05 PM
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^i understand your point James but it doesn't mean there is misleading information given
Actually, it does. The industry accepted definition of useful response is the -10dB point. Claims made for response below that frequency should be considered false and misleading. If you're going to say that they don't list 18Hz as the -10dB point remember that a lie of omission is still a lie.

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post #386 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 06:46 PM
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Please cite me a source for the above. I'm not aware of any figure that's "industry accepted" although 10db's seems pretty reasonable in the "useful" dept...although reference level playback (125+dbs) could still see very useful ULF content that's 10+dbs below the balance. You use what you got when you're reaching the outer limits. You ever heard 110db 25hz content? I can assure you that it's "usable".

Further, the only claims made below the -10db point that are false are the one's that are, well, false.

If a speaker output's -11dbs at 10hz it's not inherently false because it's below 10dbs. That's just ridiculous.

But again- they didn't denote "useful response" anyway.

But we may as well squash it. I realize that DT has become AVS' poor man's bose, lmao.

Drat; if only they advertised their -3db points. Might actually have some good gear and credibility.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #387 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 07:03 PM
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Please cite me a source for the above
Me. Google my name, check out my occupation.

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post #388 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 07:15 PM
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I'd heard of the 10 dB point...but it may have been Bill's post somewhere else for all I know. It makes sense, though. To take frequency response figures from speaker sellers that aren't backed up with a specific spec then it's caveat emptor. Sure, it'd be nice to have certain specs made law but you wanna trust our politicians with that? If we had a serious gubmint agency addressing the content of advertising that's just scary as well as somewhat un-American not to bulls***. Guys wouldn't get laid, products wouldn't get sold.....not good.

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post #389 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 07:18 PM
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^ yes, I'm well aware of you and your occupation. How could anyone who has spent even a modicum of time here, not?

So you represent an entire industry? Good to know...that unfortunately doesn't explain a lot of other folks- apparently mis-representing the industry- quoting other figures.

But this drags off the current point anyway and worse, the point of the thread.

I'll move along now and simply agree to disagree about how evil DT is.

Fact is 90% of us would likely agree on 90% of everything else related...no big deal.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #390 of 689 Old 07-15-2013, 08:28 PM
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James, I own a pair of Definitive 8060 towers. The value they give is unquestionable. I would actually like to keep them for the non main dedicated setup such as a bedroom or a smaller tv setup with just 2 channel. But I am not full of money and need to sell to get to my goal of JTR 212 Noesis speakers. I have continually repeated myself on the DT forums that I really like these speakers. But DT claims they are enough to where you don't need a separate sub or subs. The bass the give is good as well IMO opinion. But as we continually see the graphs on the Master bass movie list thread there is lots of action in the 20-30 hz range. Now you can't claim you don't need a separate sub when your product can't accurately replicate the audio track on the disc. For music yes they are fine. But you can't just decide a 35hz rolloff is adequate bass. Most people will never know and care because what they do hear is good and still lots of action from 35-70 hz. But one day when they learn more they will think to themselves, "Hey, when I bought these the spec sheet said down to 18hz and I expected action there. Not a -40db point."

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