Subwoofer Ownership – Your Path to Satisfaction - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 689 Old 06-15-2013, 08:02 PM
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Someone asked me to post pics of my two DIY subs...



If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #242 of 689 Old 06-17-2013, 08:40 AM
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Just thinking out loud here. If someone was down to Dual S2 captivators or dual Submersive F2's, perhaps for aesthetic reasons, then would there be any reason to get the Submersives over the captivators? It just seems on paper captivators numbers are superior in every way.
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post #243 of 689 Old 06-17-2013, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Just thinking out loud here. If someone was down to Dual S2 captivators or dual Submersive F2's, perhaps for aesthetic reasons, then would there be any reason to get the Submersives over the captivators? It just seems on paper captivators numbers are superior in every way.

You would be ridiculously happy with either choice. I could name a few reasons one would pic the SubM over the S2.

1. Inert (vibration free) design
2. Cheaper (save what, $400 or so each IIRC)
3. Seaton DSP magic

No matter what shootout you read up on, if a SubM was in the mix, it ALWAYS tested well in both music and movies.

You might be giving up some output, but you are still getting one of the best performers available. And if you aren't playing full out all of the time, I doubt you would really be able to tell a difference between the two.

I gotta be honest though man, I'm kinda bummed that Dual OS aren't on your radar anymore. You would have been in some elite company right there. I think I know of maybe 5 people in the world that have Dual OS in their HT. Would have blown your socks off!

 

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post #244 of 689 Old 06-17-2013, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

You would be ridiculously happy with either choice. I could name a few reasons one would pic the SubM over the S2.

1. Inert (vibration free) design
2. Cheaper (what $400 or each IIRC)
3. Seaton DSP magic

No matter what shootout you read up on, if a SubM was in the mix, it ALWAYS tested well in both music and movies.

You might be giving up some output, but you are still getting one of the best performers available. And if you aren't playing full out all of the time, I doubt you would really be able to tell a difference between the two.

I gotta be honest though man, I'm kinda bummed that Dual OS aren't on your radar anymore. You would have been in some elite company right there. I think I know of maybe 5 people in the world that have Dual OS in their HT. Would have blown your socks off!

Oh no! They are number one on my list! I'm just taking care of all the questions in my head. I mentioned briefly before that the fiancé and I (yea she is all in on the sub purchase) will be renting a house for a bit until we buy prob about 3 years from now. We are still deciding on a permanent place of residence, not sure if Eugene, OR is it. Number one right now is Redding, CA. Wouldn't that be funny moving more OS's to northern Cali! So I just feel better having 2nd place covered. But I will get to demo all of them. Actually I don't have a dual cap s2 demo yet but it may not be necessary. So yea the Orbit Shifters (dual) are still number one based solely off of reviews, very good descriptive reviews!
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post #245 of 689 Old 06-17-2013, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

You would be ridiculously happy with either choice. I could name a few reasons one would pic the SubM over the S2.

1. Inert (vibration free) design
2. Cheaper (save what, $400 or so each IIRC)
3. Seaton DSP magic

No matter what shootout you read up on, if a SubM was in the mix, it ALWAYS tested well in both music and movies.

You might be giving up some output, but you are still getting one of the best performers available. And if you aren't playing full out all of the time, I doubt you would really be able to tell a difference between the two.

I gotta be honest though man, I'm kinda bummed that Dual OS aren't on your radar anymore. You would have been in some elite company right there. I think I know of maybe 5 people in the world that have Dual OS in their HT. Would have blown your socks off!

Either choice is great. Both are fantastic designs that are very capable. The dual Orbit Shifter option is really great, too.

Point #1 is important, and is the reason I built dual opposed subs. #2 is also important, but I think you definitely lose output - two smaller drivers, with less throw, and less amplifier on the SubM. I would think in terms of sheer CEA-passing output, the S2 is likely close to double. As for #3, both designs come with DSP in the amp to get the flattest response, but the SubM has selectable curves. I think everyone I've ever heard or read about uses the lower extension DSP setting.

One other big thing, for me, is the 7hz HPF built into the SubM. The S2 has no such high pass, so you'll still get big output on the absolutely lowest content - things like the TIH cop car smash, the laser warp to the grid in T:L, the lightning strikes in WOTW, etc.
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Oh no! They are number one on my list! I'm just taking care of all the questions in my head. I mentioned briefly before that the fiancé and I (yea she is all in on the sub purchase) will be renting a house for a bit until we buy prob about 3 years from now. We are still deciding on a permanent place of residence, not sure if Eugene, OR is it. Number one right now is Redding, CA. Wouldn't that be funny moving more OS's to northern Cali! So I just feel better having 2nd place covered. But I will get to demo all of them. Actually I don't have a dual cap s2 demo yet but it may not be necessary. So yea the Orbit Shifters (dual) are still number one based solely off of reviews, very good descriptive reviews!

Man, Eugene is a super nice place to live. Redding is also nice, but I haven't spent nearly as much time there. Good luck!

In terms of any rental, just make sure you're not too close to your neighbors with two of these subs. Otherwise, they'll feel like they're in the theater with you on movie nights!
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post #246 of 689 Old 06-17-2013, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Either choice is great. Both are fantastic designs that are very capable. The dual Orbit Shifter option is really great, too.

Point #1 is important, and is the reason I built dual opposed subs. #2 is also important, but I think you definitely lose output - two smaller drivers, with less throw, and less amplifier on the SubM. I would think in terms of sheer CEA-passing output, the S2 is likely close to double. As for #3, both designs come with DSP in the amp to get the flattest response, but the SubM has selectable curves. I think everyone I've ever heard or read about uses the lower extension DSP setting.

One other big thing, for me, is the 7hz HPF built into the SubM. The S2 has no such high pass, so you'll still get big output on the absolutely lowest content - things like the TIH cop car smash, the laser warp to the grid in T:L, the lightning strikes in WOTW, etc.
Man, Eugene is a super nice place to live. Redding is also nice, but I haven't spent nearly as much time there. Good luck!

In terms of any rental, just make sure you're not too close to your neighbors with two of these subs. Otherwise, they'll feel like they're in the theater with you on movie nights!

Yea it's funny we were talking yesterday about rentals in which I was telling her I want somewhere out of town for the future subwoofers. Like no house close for at least a couple hundred yards. She says, "we'll it's not gonna cause molding to crack is it?" In reference to popa locks pics. It was a true lol moment. I said no honey it's not 16x18's...

So yea my whole search which will begin in August after we get back from Oahu and will be based around the future most likely dual OS's.
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post #247 of 689 Old 06-17-2013, 12:07 PM
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Hi Guys,

Just quick jumping in to clarify a few things...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

You would be ridiculously happy with either choice. I could name a few reasons one would pic the SubM over the S2.

1. Inert (vibration free) design
2. Cheaper (save what, $400 or so each IIRC)
3. Seaton DSP magic

No matter what shootout you read up on, if a SubM was in the mix, it ALWAYS tested well in both music and movies.

You might be giving up some output, but you are still getting one of the best performers available. And if you aren't playing full out all of the time, I doubt you would really be able to tell a difference between the two.

I gotta be honest though man, I'm kinda bummed that Dual OS aren't on your radar anymore. You would have been in some elite company right there. I think I know of maybe 5 people in the world that have Dual OS in their HT. Would have blown your socks off!

Either choice is great. Both are fantastic designs that are very capable. The dual Orbit Shifter option is really great, too.

Point #1 is important, and is the reason I built dual opposed subs. #2 is also important, but I think you definitely lose output - two smaller drivers, with less throw, and less amplifier on the SubM. I would think in terms of sheer CEA-passing output, the S2 is likely close to double. As for #3, both designs come with DSP in the amp to get the flattest response, but the SubM has selectable curves. I think everyone I've ever heard or read about uses the lower extension DSP setting.

I'd say PGM2 use is closer to 50/50 or 60/40 overall vs. those who are most active or visible on the forums that probably create such a perception. Those using a correction system like Audyssey are more likely to use this as by having the 2 response curves allows calibration with the original response and using the second response to effectively insert a mild tilt to the bottom end. This most common use of PGM2 is not possible without both response programs available. I believe popalock was also referring to how I put the DSP to use, not just the possible uses. I do know Jeff & I put the DSP to use differently, and some functions we create/define ourselves, so there really is a huge range of how things can be put to use.
Quote:
One other big thing, for me, is the 7hz HPF built into the SubM. The S2 has no such high pass, so you'll still get big output on the absolutely lowest content - things like the TIH cop car smash, the laser warp to the grid in T:L, the lightning strikes in WOTW, etc.
There is no specific high pass in the SubMersive. The amplifiers have some roll off in the single digit range which will be present on all designs using this family of SpeakerPower amplifiers. Over the years I have pushed SpeakerPower to lower this further. I don't recall where the exact roll off is in the current amplifiers, but it's well below 10Hz, I believe in the 5-7Hz range, and fairly shallow. Without a DC coupled reference, accurate measurements of this can be a little tricky, as small variations in measurement can shift things a few Hz either way.

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post #248 of 689 Old 06-17-2013, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for weighing in Mark. You beat me to the punch. I feel kinda bad that you have to repeat yourself so much. How many times have you had to address the 7Hz HPF question/comment this year alone...lol. Regardless, it's always great to hear it directly from the designer and your unwavering PC approach always gives me a chuckle...

biggrin.gif

With that said...
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Originally Posted by nube View Post

One other big thing, for me, is the 7hz HPF built into the SubM. The S2 has no such high pass, so you'll still get big output on the absolutely lowest content - things like the TIH cop car smash, the laser warp to the grid in T:L, the lightning strikes in WOTW, etc.
Man, Eugene is a super nice place to live. Redding is also nice, but I haven't spent nearly as much time there. Good luck!

The S2 has something going on in the lowest of the lows. Albeit amp roll or some other protection. I had a chance to experience Dual S2's play my favorite reference scene, F'in Irene. A scene I'm intimately familiar with, which goes full ULFTard @ 6Hz. We played the scene a few times back-to-back. The cones were moving pretty good, but no where near their full potential or at all what I was expecting. I have no idea what DSP setting was enabled, or if anything else could have been done to change response that low. That said, it did have me scratching my chin when it came digging below 7Hz. First thing that came to mind was the Speakerpower amp roll, because Jeff doesn't seem like the type to wear/build-in protection...

tongue.gif

Not my intent to base my impressions off of one spirited demo session, but that's all I got!!!!

IMHO to get response even worth mentioning below 7Hz would take either a much smaller space than where we demoed the S2's, or a notable amount more displacement/lowend boost than what dual S2 exhibited during our demo session.

Honestly, if I would have never experienced that scene in full-on ridiculous mode with my various DIY setups, I doubt I would even be making this comment.

 

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post #249 of 689 Old 06-17-2013, 12:53 PM
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Thanks for the update, Mark. I always appreciate your thoughtful input.

You know, I swear I've read that you said that there was a specific 7hz HPF...

Actually, I found the reference from the Oct. 20, 2012 GTG at Gorilla's house:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Someone asked how deep these subs went. Here is a capture of the Submersive HPs triple setup in program 2 with 5hz being the starting point on the x axis. Mark confirmed he has a HPF setup on the Submersive DSP at 7hz in the plate amp he uses.
SeatonSubmersivetriplesprogram2-graphto5hz_zps4fb743a6.jpg

Just for clarification, did Jonathan misinterpret what you're saying about the rolloff in the amp? I didn't see any correction of it in that thread (big thread, easy to miss), so I thought I'd better ask!
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post #250 of 689 Old 06-17-2013, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I recall playing the SubM with and without the miniDSP HPF activated and having a blind vote if anyone could tell a difference... I'll defer to Mark on the specifics to his product...

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post #251 of 689 Old 06-18-2013, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nb67 View Post

In the town of Fontana of all places, there is some serious competition when it comes to LFE. Within a 2 mile radius of me there are now 3 guys who have really good systems that I know of. I thought 1 SubM would do it but when I visited one of them I realized that even 4 Subm’s would only put me in their ballpark. Now there is crazy talk of multiple G horns. I hate them rolleyes.gif

Yeah man, you are surrounded by enablers. Glad I wasn't into HT and didn't get a chance to meet the LA Crew when I lived in Santa Clarita back in 2010. Would have been horrible for the pocket book for sure...

Rumor has it that everyone is going to be loading up their subs/amps and bringing them by Mike's to see if he can be the first HT in the world to hit 150db @ 30Hz.

When was that going down again?

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post #252 of 689 Old 06-18-2013, 12:24 PM
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What processors or avr's do y'all run? I have a Denon 3313 but have been wondering if I should upgrade to xt32. I can sell my 3313 for 650 and get the new X4000 for 1100 shipped. But someday I want to run full 11 channel setup. But that could be 5 years down the road. I know the 4520 for 1900 shipped but I can't swing that gap with our wedding coming up. So I was thinking the X4000 to get XT 32 with SubEQ Ht whatever you call it! If I keep the 3313 with new dual subs they would essentially have to be equidistant on the front wall from the MLP.
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post #253 of 689 Old 06-18-2013, 12:46 PM
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MK, I have heard you mention you have a small room. What are the dimensions and cu ft space?
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post #254 of 689 Old 06-18-2013, 01:02 PM
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Well, not that small but a short ceiling basement makes the cubic feet smallish. It measures 21 x 15 x 7. The ceiling is closer to 78 inches after all the treatments and sound board. So 2047.5 cubic feet.
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post #255 of 689 Old 06-18-2013, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well, not that small but a short ceiling basement makes the cubic feet smallish. It measures 21 x 15 x 7. The ceiling is closer to 78 inches after all the treatments and sound board. So 2047.5 cubic feet.

I see, thanks!
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post #256 of 689 Old 06-18-2013, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Yea it's funny we were talking yesterday about rentals in which I was telling her I want somewhere out of town for the future subwoofers. Like no house close for at least a couple hundred yards. She says, "we'll it's not gonna cause molding to crack is it?" In reference to popa locks pics. It was a true lol moment. I said no honey it's not 16x18's...

So yea my whole search which will begin in August after we get back from Oahu and will be based around the future most likely dual OS's.

Man, dual OS will get a lot closer to what I have than you think... If you don't crack your molding, you will probably crack the grout in your tile or separate your wood flooring above your theater. Your future spouse is bound to get pissed off at you at some point.

wink.gif

 

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post #257 of 689 Old 06-18-2013, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

What processors or avr's do y'all run? I have a Denon 3313 but have been wondering if I should upgrade to xt32. I can sell my 3313 for 650 and get the new X4000 for 1100 shipped. But someday I want to run full 11 channel setup. But that could be 5 years down the road. I know the 4520 for 1900 shipped but I can't swing that gap with our wedding coming up. So I was thinking the X4000 to get XT 32 with SubEQ Ht whatever you call it! If I keep the 3313 with new dual subs they would essentially have to be equidistant on the front wall from the MLP.

I like the 3313. I say hold on to it for now and scoop up a miniDSP to take care of sub eq duties. I wouldn't rule out an XT32 enabled AVR in the long run, but a miniDSP is an upgrade that will benefit you regardless of your AVR choice. I see you have already started to dabble with REW. Good. REW and miniDSP make a very potent combo.

 

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post #258 of 689 Old 06-18-2013, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Man, dual OS will get a lot closer to what I have than you think... If you don't crack your molding, you will probably crack the grout in your tile or separate your wood flooring above your theater. Your future spouse is bound to get pissed off at you at some point.

wink.gif

Whatever it takes to get that bass experience!
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post #259 of 689 Old 06-18-2013, 02:16 PM
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I use a Meridian 861 with DCX.
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post #260 of 689 Old 06-18-2013, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post


Rumor has it that everyone is going to be loading up their subs/amps and bringing them by Mike's to see if he can be the first HT in the world to hit 150db @ 30Hz.

When was that going down again?

biggrin.gif

I hope I'm very, very far away when that happens.

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post #261 of 689 Old 06-18-2013, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I hope I'm very, very far away when that happens.

Well, they are going to need your gear so... I don't know if you really want to leave those guys alone with your subs...haha.

 

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post #262 of 689 Old 06-18-2013, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Consolidated list updated.

 

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post #263 of 689 Old 06-19-2013, 07:15 AM
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What do y'all know about the ftw 21" subs?
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post #264 of 689 Old 06-19-2013, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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What do y'all know about the ftw 21" subs?

I know 4 of them can make an upstairs coffee table walk across a floor.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1426716/my-ftw21-build-thread/200_100#post_22462785

 

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post #265 of 689 Old 06-19-2013, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I know 4 of them can make an upstairs coffee table walk across a floor.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1426716/my-ftw21-build-thread/200_100#post_22462785

Hmmm. It's just a photo now. Maybe cuz it's my iPhone...
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post #266 of 689 Old 06-19-2013, 09:46 AM
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Yea I'll check it out at home
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post #267 of 689 Old 06-19-2013, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I like the 3313. I say hold on to it for now and scoop up a miniDSP to take care of sub eq duties. I wouldn't rule out an XT32 enabled AVR in the long run, but a miniDSP is an upgrade that will benefit you regardless of your AVR choice. I see you have already started to dabble with REW. Good. REW and miniDSP make a very potent combo.

Yea I've been reading/following the REW thread. Honestly a lot of that stuff is over my head. I understand the theories, but once my UMM-6 arrives from being back ordered I can start playing around. Yea I like the 3313 and want to wait and just go straight to the top when the time comes. Where can I learn about the mini dsp, what it does, use, setup, etc. from here on out any purchases will be slow and methodical and straight to the top.
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post #268 of 689 Old 06-19-2013, 09:56 AM
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You can click on the photo and it'll take you to the image hosting site, where the video plays. (At least on my phone.)

As for REW & the MiniDSP, it's a powerful combo, and pretty easy to use. It's certainly going to allow finer granularity of adjustment, and user control over them. Highly recommended.

I sure wish Mark would have responded to what I last wrote, because I really want clarification - other SubM owners, such as Craig John in the SubM thread, have mentioned this 7hz HPF, but I haven't seen it corrected. This was one of the only negative aspects of the SubM in my mind. They still perform great!
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post #269 of 689 Old 06-19-2013, 04:16 PM
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^^^Mark commented on one thread I read this week that the SubM does not have a 7Hz HPF, the amplifier rolloff is all that is there. He was rather definitive on the subject.

He who does not punish evil commands it to be done.  Leonardo DaVinci

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post #270 of 689 Old 06-19-2013, 04:24 PM
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It was this thread post 247
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