Time to replace my dual subs from 1995? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

One more question:
How will these subs "of the new millenium", even though they have smaller drivers and enclosures, compare to my 17 year old 18" Velodynes? Will they just equal their performance, or will I be blown away by the increase in performance??


The F1800s were outstanding for their day with performance that should still be considered well above average.

Not sure if you are interested but here is a good article outlining the measured differences between each size of the F series.

http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Subwoofers%20How%20Big%20is%20Big%20Enough.pdf

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Old 12-13-2012, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

The F1800s were outstanding for their day with performance that should still be considered well above average.
Not sure if you are interested but here is a good article outlining the measured differences between each size of the F series.
http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Subwoofers%20How%20Big%20is%20Big%20Enough.pdf
Tom V.
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Thanks Tom, I think I actually remember that article.

So, basically you're saying I will not be "blown away" by a comparable sub from today...?

Hmmm...maybe I should just wait on this whole "new sub" thing until I get my new receiver and see if the new Audyssey can bring my old sub back to life. I've been using a <$300 receiver (without Audyssey) for the past 7-8 years due to budget constraints. Before that, when I had a much better income, I was lucky enough to have a Lexicon DC-1 with Carver amps. After some financial problems, I had to sell the seperates. As you can probably guess, the el-cheapo receiver hasn't quite done it for me over the years.

I've got a bit more "fun" money these days and am looking forward to some much better home theater sound again!

AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
CC: Klipsch RC64ii
SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4
SUB: PSA XS15 x 4 (Soon to be replaced with dual T-18s!)
DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

So, basically you're saying I will not be "blown away" by a comparable sub from today...?

---snip---

I've got a bit more "fun" money these days and am looking forward to some much better home theater sound again!

Quite the opposite. Today's subs go much deeper with much more authority and do so at a much better price when inflation is figured into the price.

Old technology vs new technology and yes, there's been a huge improvement since 1997. If you want to hold onto your subs, no need not to. One can add a DSPeaker, Anti-Mode, 8033S II and gain benefit of today's technology for a delivered price of $450.00. Doing it this way you'll get benefit of a subwoofer EQ and be able to continue using your current sub/AVR combination. And when you choose to upgrade either subwoofer or AVR, the Anti-Mode will marry up nicely with whatever it is you choose to go with.

The experience I speak from, I'm just came from your situation. Recently we upgraded the TV, the AVR, the center channel and now using the same subs I purchased back in 94, added an Anti-Mode. The same subs hit with clarity vs without the Anti-Mode. Yes, I'm looking to upgrade the subs. Yes, it's a bundle. No, I can't buy right now and get what I want. So I'm holding off, have bought the Anti-Mode to fill in the interim time and when I can, I'll go the "Full Monte" and pickup a pair of my idea, what subs are all about. Until then, there's the Anti-Mode and the dream of something better.

Hope the above personal ramblings help give insight to your dilemma.

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Old 12-13-2012, 10:47 AM
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How about dual Epik Empires ???
or a JTR Orbir Shifter
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Thanks Tom, I think I actually remember that article.
So, basically you're saying I will not be "blown away" by a comparable sub from today...?
Hmmm...maybe I should just wait on this whole "new sub" thing until I get my new receiver and see if the new Audyssey can bring my old sub back to life. I've been using a <$300 receiver (without Audyssey) for the past 7-8 years due to budget constraints. Before that, when I had a much better income, I was lucky enough to have a Lexicon DC-1 with Carver amps. After some financial problems, I had to sell the seperates. As you can probably guess, the el-cheapo receiver hasn't quite done it for me over the years.
I've got a bit more "fun" money these days and am looking forward to some much better home theater sound again!

Hi Alan,

If the 'reference point" for this comparison is your dual F1800s operating at 100%----then I'm not overly confident you will be "blown away" by anything you can get <$1500. You'l get somewhat similar performance at best I'd guess. That is a $4000 system in the 1990s, and a $10,000 system now(DD18+). So it's tough for even the BEST bang/buck competitors out there to match up performance wise when the budget is $1000-$1500..smile.gif

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Old 12-13-2012, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quite the opposite. Today's subs go much deeper with much more authority and do so at a much better price when inflation is figured into the price.
Old technology vs new technology and yes, there's been a huge improvement since 1997. If you want to hold onto your subs, no need not to. One can add a DSPeaker, Anti-Mode, 8033S II and gain benefit of today's technology for a delivered price of $450.00. Doing it this way you'll get benefit of a subwoofer EQ and be able to continue using your current sub/AVR combination. And when you choose to upgrade either subwoofer or AVR, the Anti-Mode will marry up nicely with whatever it is you choose to go with.
The experience I speak from, I'm just came from your situation. Recently we upgraded the TV, the AVR, the center channel and now using the same subs I purchased back in 94, added an Anti-Mode. The same subs hit with clarity vs without the Anti-Mode. Yes, I'm looking to upgrade the subs. Yes, it's a bundle. No, I can't buy right now and get what I want. So I'm holding off, have bought the Anti-Mode to fill in the interim time and when I can, I'll go the "Full Monte" and pickup a pair of my idea what subs are all about. Until then, there's the Anti-Mode and the dream of something better.
Hope the above personal ramblings help give insight to your dilemma.

Thanks BeeMan, gives me a lot to think about.

Is there a US source for the Anti-Mode? EDIT: Nevermind, I found it: http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=ANTIMODE8033S-II

AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
CC: Klipsch RC64ii
SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4
SUB: PSA XS15 x 4 (Soon to be replaced with dual T-18s!)
DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Hi Alan,
If the 'reference point" for this comparison is your dual F1800s operating at 100%----then I'm not overly confident you will be "blown away" by anything you can get <$1500. You'l get somewhat similar performance at best I'd guess. That is a $4000 system in the 1990s, and a $10,000 system now(DD18+). So it's tough for even the BEST bang/buck competitors out there to match up performance wise when the budget is $1000-$1500..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Yeah, I realize that...things just aren't as good for me these days (money-wise) as in the early '90s. frown.gif

Although now, I don't listen at quite the levels I did back then either...I'm sure I'll find something within budget that will be more than sufficient for my current listening habits.

BTW, thanks for replying here - really gives you a one-up on the competition in my book! smile.gif

AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
CC: Klipsch RC64ii
SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4
SUB: PSA XS15 x 4 (Soon to be replaced with dual T-18s!)
DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Whatever1 View Post

How about dual Epik Empires ???
or a JTR Orbir Shifter

That Orbit Shifter is GIGANTIC! Too big for me....but, the Epiks are definitely a possibility. Sound very interesting with the dual drivers. I will check them out more.

AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
CC: Klipsch RC64ii
SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4
SUB: PSA XS15 x 4 (Soon to be replaced with dual T-18s!)
DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Thanks BeeMan, gives me a lot to think about.
Is there a US source for the Anti-Mode? EDIT: Nevermind, I found it: http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=ANTIMODE8033S-II

That's who I purchased from. He's in Canada but makes runs to the US and posts from the USPS.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Yeah, I realize that...things just aren't as good for me these days (money-wise) as in the early '90s. frown.gif
Although now, I don't listen at quite the levels I did back then either...I'm sure I'll find something within budget that will be more than sufficient for my current listening habits.
BTW, thanks for replying here - really gives you a one-up on the competition in my book! smile.gif

If you contact any manufacturer directly once they know the room environment, intended placement, distance to key seats, and performance expectations it won't be difficult for them to offer their best options. That MAY be within budget. Their best <$1500 system won't "blow away" dual F1800s in any important performance metric in my opinion. But , your current bass requirements may be much lower than the performance dual F1800s offer..smile.gif

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Old 12-13-2012, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Jay I totally get what you're saying and I don't disagree, but at the same time what makes you such a big fan of the LMF1-EX's?

Bang for the buck amongst commercial subs. Obviously I'm a DIY guy, but I respect good deals on the commercial side.
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Value might mean different things to different people. But I suggest looking over the reviews in question very carefully before proclaiming their are no "performance differences".
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I dont see the need to bother with subjective impressions when the measured performance is clear and easily comparable. The biggest difference is if one gets port noise from the EX in 16hz mode, they can open up the 2nd port and remove the issue (sacrificing ULF of course). The same cant be said for the single 4" port on the XV15.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Bang for the buck amongst commercial subs. Obviously I'm a DIY guy, but I respect good deals on the commercial side.
I dont see the need to bother with subjective impressions when the measured performance is clear and easily comparable. The biggest difference is if one gets port noise from the EX in 16hz mode, they can open up the 2nd port and remove the issue (sacrificing ULF of course). The same cant be said for the single 4" port on the XV15.


In regards to "port noise"----anyone who actually reads the review would note this "issue" only occurred with PULSE. One scene of one film....that has a very loud 16hz tone with no/little upper frequency content played back at near maximum levels. How many other scenes have content like this? A handful at most, out of what.....millions of "scenes" in thousands of movies?

All designs contain compromises. But worrying about (literally) the "1 in a 100,000" scenes that MIGHT cause a few seconds of low level port noise(And remember, only at super loud levels) really seems hyper critical. Anyone who thinks this is a real issue with the XV15, please email Josh(The reviewer in question) and ask him for his opinion.

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Old 12-14-2012, 09:46 AM
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That's a bold statement Jay1, if there's no need for reviewers to give comments along with the numbers then why has it been done since the beginning of time? (since reviews have been written) Could the reason be that there's more too it then just the numbers? I guess we'd need some guys that do reviews to comment on that subject. Some how I think there's a lot of other facts that effect the way each sub sounds then just the numbers.
I personally don't know your back with sub reviews but I'll take Tom's opinions over yours given his back ground. And I mean that in the least offensive way possible.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Bang for the buck amongst commercial subs. Obviously I'm a DIY guy, but I respect good deals on the commercial side.
I dont see the need to bother with subjective impressions when the measured performance is clear and easily comparable. The biggest difference is if one gets port noise from the EX in 16hz mode, they can open up the 2nd port and remove the issue (sacrificing ULF of course). The same cant be said for the single 4" port on the XV15.

You're also comparing two subs at 16hz, when the one sub (VX15) is playing 13dB louder then the other sub (EX) with 2 ports open. I'm pretty sure if you only had one port open at 16hz on the EX you'll get port noise at 16hz too.
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Old 12-14-2012, 12:40 PM
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Couple things.

- 2 ex's in 16Hz mode have 6db more output then 1 xv15, that reduces port issues.

- audio reviews have been irrelevant for a long time, the measured data is all that matters.

- Tom's opinion about a product he sells and comparison to a competitor are completely biased, rightfully. It's also kind of out of line on an open audio forum...
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Old 12-14-2012, 01:46 PM
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I'm in the camp that doesn't think you'll be impressed with the improvement over your current setup. Now, options like the Orbit Shifter and DTS10 will be an obvious improvement.

I didn't realize it was a living room application. Even still, the DTS10 has a 16" dimension that I've seen built into a bookcase or hidden behind curtains. So it is easier in alot of ways than a large cube. BTW, the price of the kit is $1100 plus a $300 amp.

If funds are tight, you've got a "good enough" sub system as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't spend money on subs until you could do it without compromise.

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Old 12-14-2012, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Couple things.
- 2 ex's in 16Hz mode have 6db more output then 1 xv15, that reduces port issues.
- audio reviews have been irrelevant for a long time, the measured data is all that matters.
- Tom's opinion about a product he sells and comparison to a competitor are completely biased, rightfully. It's also kind of out of line on an open audio forum...

I have only commented on the XV15. The *only* thing I said in relation to performance comparisons was to "read reviews carefully" That's out of line now? Okay thanks for the warning rolleyes.gif

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Old 12-14-2012, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Couple things.
- 2 ex's in 16Hz mode have 6db more output then 1 xv15, that reduces port issues.
- audio reviews have been irrelevant for a long time, the measured data is all that matters.
- Tom's opinion about a product he sells and comparison to a competitor are completely biased, rightfully. It's also kind of out of line on an open audio forum...

That's funny I don't recall reading anything from Tom where he's being bias about anything he's sold. Actually if you ever had the chance to talk to Tom he'll give you honest answers about any of the product he sells compared to other product on the market. I have quite a few email exchanges with him in regards to a lot of other manufactures and NEVER once did he ever put anyones products down or try to hard sell me on anything from PSA. So I'm a little confused as to why you think Tom's out of line?

And why exactly are you now comparing 2 EX's to 1 XV15?
If you wanted to compared 2 EX's it should be with a single XS30 price wise.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

I'm in the camp that doesn't think you'll be impressed with the improvement over your current setup. Now, options like the Orbit Shifter and DTS10 will be an obvious improvement.
I didn't realize it was a living room application. Even still, the DTS10 has a 16" dimension that I've seen built into a bookcase or hidden behind curtains. So it is easier in alot of ways than a large cube. BTW, the price of the kit is $1100 plus a $300 amp.
If funds are tight, you've got a "good enough" sub system as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't spend money on subs until you could do it without compromise.

Thanks Tony, that's exactly what I've decided to do. I'm going to try and have my second F18 fixed (an enginer at the TV station I work at is gonna give it a shot) and keep my fingers crossed that the other F18 holds out for at least a couple more years!

Thanks for the advice everyone, it's been a learning experience.

AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
CC: Klipsch RC64ii
SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4
SUB: PSA XS15 x 4 (Soon to be replaced with dual T-18s!)
DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:07 PM
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Haha it is pretty funny how every thread like these turns into quite the debates.biggrin.gif
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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OP here: Just wanted to let you all know that I'm seriously losing my memory!

I have two F1500s, not F1800s - them boxes just look soooo big! smile.gif

I've got my new receiver dialed in pretty good, but only have one F1500 up and running (the other is hopefully being repaired next week). Sounds really good, but I'm still experimenting with sub placement (gonna rearrange my living room this weekend).

In light of my recent memory loss, does this change anyone's recommendations as far as replacement subs goes?

Thanks again for all you help!

EDIT: Oh yeah, I figured out my cubic footage - right around 3400 cu. ft. give or take. This does not include the open kitchen though.

Here's my setup:


AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
CC: Klipsch RC64ii
SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4
SUB: PSA XS15 x 4 (Soon to be replaced with dual T-18s!)
DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740
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