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post #1 of 38 Old 12-14-2012, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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so after months and months and years of debating and researching and drooling... I think it is time to add the .1 to my sig rolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif I am, however, rather nervous about adding the sub. I am in an apartment and have neighbors next to and below me. I like to think I am rather conservative with my listening volume as it is, and I work office hours so my "late night" sessions don't exactly extend into the wee small hours of the morning, but I still have concern. Based on my unofficial android DB meter placed on my coffee table (5' ish from each speaker), I usually don't exceed 60db when listening. In fact, most of my listening is done in the -60something to -50db range on my receiver, which although my speakers are 90db efficient, I still feel is rather conservative.


I still haven't quite narrowed down the options. I found deals via AV websites and Audiogon that seem appealing, but these subs I'm looking at are really all over the place...

The electronics nerd and audio snob in me wants to get some high watt beast, but I know that would be bad temptation, as well as primarily unused potential. Example: vanns has the Klipsch SW308 on major sale these days, but I'm afraid that a 300W/600W peak under-30hz-rated sub just might be a one-way ticket to eviction eek.gif

I have also found smaller subs that I have considered. Example: audiogon has a listing for a 10" 150W B&W sub which is the same series/generation/finish I have, which would be nice (I love me some matching gear!). Not quite the lil' a$$ beater that the Klipsch is, but I feel like this might be a more... logical choice.


All of these choices have caused a few general questions to pop up my head. Specifically....

Ported VS sealed? Given the fact that my goal is not to rattle buildings and melt faces, I am thinking I should go for a sealed design. Although I am no physics expert, I am under impression that ports work best (or at all?) when the driver is pushed hard, aka the higher I turn it up, the stronger effect the port has. True story? This also makes models like the Klipsch with passive radiators appealing. Do these designs still work well at lower levels?

High watts VS low? Given that I am in a smallish apartment and my intended uses, it's pretty obvious I don't need a lot of watts. But hey, if I only got things I needed I never would've joined AVS in the first place wink.gif but I feel like if I get a sub with 200W or less, I could use more of the subs.... potential? This may be a foolish question, but would a low watt sub driven hard sound or wok "better" than a high watt sub barely driven? I know there is all kinds of debates about watts VS watts for speaker amps, but I'm curious to hear the sub angle.

Sub Dude? Regardless of what I get, I will without question get a Sub Dude or a DIY project with a dense foam platform. I see a few AVS users using similar products... how much do these work? Does this legitimately cut down on vibrations/rattling, or is this a band aid on a gun shot wound?

Bass travel at "low" volumes? I know I've mentioned this a few times, but I feel like I am somewhat cautious with my listening levels. I know bass travels through walls well, but is it still stronger than other frequencies when at lower volumes?

So, all of that said....................... any thoughts?

I know I didn't really ask much specific, and just ranted all over the place, but any feedback and discussion is welcomed! smile.gif

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post #2 of 38 Old 12-14-2012, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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also, because I know it will be one of the first questions asked.... budget needs to stay under $500. I would be much happier spending in the $3XX range, and have found a few appealing subs in that range, but the money is there regardless.

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post #3 of 38 Old 12-14-2012, 12:31 PM
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At your low listening volumes you'll have no issues even if the walls are thin.

Regardless, make nice with your neighbors if you haven't already, and do a sound test. Put on the most hard hitting electronic music track you can find, turn it up past the loudest point you think you'll ever go, and go have a listen from inside their apartment. You might be surprised what you can get away with.

 




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post #4 of 38 Old 12-14-2012, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanglo View Post

at your low listening volumes you'll have no issues even if the walls are thin.... you might be surprised what you can get away with.

thanks for the encouraging feedback! wink.gif I have noticed that a LOT of noise bleeds into the common hallway/entryway, but that happens with everyone's noise, not just my music. That said, I rarely hear my neighbors within my walls. Interesting.....

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post #5 of 38 Old 12-14-2012, 01:34 PM
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I've been in my apartment for over a year now. I have a Bic F12. Nothing extreme, but easily shakes the dishes in my cabinet.

Living on top of someone was scary at first, but I slowly worked my way up with the volume over the course of a few weeks. The complaints never came. I have yet to receive a complaint despite being able to feel the bass in my chest.

Now, I try to only play it loud at reasonable times. But regardless, I thought by now someone would've felt it annoying enough to complain.

I say go for it. Don't worry about having too much power, as you can always turn it down if you start to worry.

Keep an eye on this. I've heard good things about the RW-12d, and it regularly goes on sale for $299 on newegg.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882780078

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I am in an apt also. I had a Bic F12 for about a year and it did fine but I decided I wanted to get something that would go a little lower and be more accurate for music. The Klipsch RW-12d fit the bill perfectly. You can do a little better for $500 but in an apt why? Save the other $200 or spend it to upgrade something else where you will really notice the difference. Especially if this is your first sub I think you would be very happy with the RW12.

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post #7 of 38 Old 12-14-2012, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 600th post!!! AVS RULES!!! biggrin.gifcool.giftongue.gif

thanks for the feedback everyone! Lou and 007, either of you use a Sub Dude or any type of riser for your sub?

I've been a fan of Klipsch subs for a while now. A good friend of mine has a XW-500D that he gives a serious workout almost daily, and it is always up to the task and usually begs for more. His unit has the digital controls like the RW12, which are really nifty and neat, if not mandatory.

but this still seems very temping, and is currently on sale...
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/549185018/klipsch-sw308?s_c=site_search
I also kind of like the smaller size of teh 308, that RW12 is huge!


Please keep the feedback coming.

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post #8 of 38 Old 12-14-2012, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaphile View Post

Bass travel at "low" volumes? I know I've mentioned this a few times, but I feel like I am somewhat cautious with my listening levels. I know bass travels through walls well, but is it still stronger than other frequencies when at lower volumes?
Bass travels through walls, floors and ceilings because the wavelengths are 12 to 60 feet long. The only thing that stops them is mass in floors/ceilings, as in a foot or more of solid concrete, and the same or complex double studded constrained layer double thickness sheet rock walls. And because room modes can cause phase cancellation nulls in the room, based on the sub and listening position placements, a sub can be louder in a adjoining apartment than it is in your own. That being the case, don't go overboard...or buy a house.
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post #9 of 38 Old 12-14-2012, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Bass travels through walls, floors and ceilings because the wavelengths are 12 to 60 feet long. The only thing that stops them is mass in floors/ceilings, as in a foot or more of solid concrete, and the same or complex double studded constrained layer double thickness sheet rock walls. And because room modes can cause phase cancellation nulls in the room, based on the sub and listening position placements, a sub can be louder in a adjoining apartment than it is in your own. That being the case, don't go overboard...or buy a house.

+1. I've been on the receiving end of a neighbor with a sub when I used to live in an apartment. NOT pleasant.

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post #10 of 38 Old 12-14-2012, 03:27 PM
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That Klipsch sw-308 sub is very nice for an 8" sub. 300w Bash amp and all. But
what is the size of your listening area? 8" woofer might be small for your area.
What are your main speakers? And how long do you plan staying in an apt?

Although I've never heard this, the specs look nice, and SVS subs have good
quality, 5 yr bumper to bumper guarantee, superb customer service, maybe this
would be a nice fit.......http://svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb-1000.
$500 shipped. Top of your budget I know.

The Klipsch RW-12D is a fantastic deal when on sale. But if you are staying
in your apartment for a long length of time, I think the SVS would serve
you well.

There are a lot of subs in the $500 category. I just feel a small
sealed sub would suit you best.

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post #11 of 38 Old 12-14-2012, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vardo View Post

what is the size of your listening area? 8" woofer might be small for your area. What are your main speakers?

Speakers are B&W 602.5 which use a 6" woofer. Given a good recording and good volume, they produce semi descent bass, although I'm sure I just got laughed at for saying that tongue.gif Listening room is not too big, quick estimates say... my living/dining/kitchen area are apx 2800 cubic feet. Stand by for pics and layout!

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post #12 of 38 Old 12-14-2012, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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here is the a rough floor plan of my apartment. I would show you a floor plan of my life, but I think I just proved I don't have one. and now some pics....



family room/listening area. the blue square taped out is 15"x15"



bakc of the room. there is a lot of open wall/space back behind the couch, the next step after the sub is room treatments. I want to stay low on the sub budget to allow for treatments to happen faster



system shot. the other sub spot I was thinking about would be behind the palm on the left in the corner


SOOOO, now that room size (apx2800 cubic ft) has been established, have the opinions changed?

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post #13 of 38 Old 12-14-2012, 05:27 PM
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Only reinforces my thoughts. I thought that the RW might be a little too much but now I think that you will need it. With that much open space I think an 8" or 10" in your budget will disappoint you. Like someone stated earlier, it is better to get an overachiever that you can turn down than spending good money on something you can't hear.

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post #14 of 38 Old 12-15-2012, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Bass travels through walls, floors and ceilings because the wavelengths are 12 to 60 feet long. The only thing that stops them is mass in floors/ceilings, as in a foot or more of solid concrete, and the same or complex double studded constrained layer double thickness sheet rock walls. And because room modes can cause phase cancellation nulls in the room, based on the sub and listening position placements, a sub can be louder in a adjoining apartment than it is in your own. That being the case, don't go overboard...or buy a house.

thanks for the info! Slightly silly question... does bass travel the same distance regardless of volume?

Also, an additional question for everyone; if I were to use a smaller "undersized" sub for the area, what would be the loss? Overall volume, low freq. extension, or both? As mentioned before, I'm not looking to knock down pictures or shake the seats, I really just want to hear all of the upright bass when listening to jazz and more audible bass guitar kick drum with rock music.

If the sub I get is rated down to 30hz or so, and has "only" 200W maximum, would that still get me the sound I'm looking for with 2800cu ft.?

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post #15 of 38 Old 12-15-2012, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

I thought that the RW might be a little too much but now I think that you will need it. With that much open space I think an 8" or 10" in your budget will disappoint you

interesting..... you would even say that given the specs of the SW308? It has a 300W/650W peak uses two 8" passive radiators, which to my understanding helps the sub give a larger output and more volume to work with, giving the effect of larger drivers or ports.... any truth there? I know this is a very non-AVS thing to say, but I'm not exactly a fan of how big that RW12 is physically, my speakers aren't even 36" tall, I don't want them to be dwarfed too much! redface.gif

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post #16 of 38 Old 12-15-2012, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaphile View Post

thanks for the info! Slightly silly question... does bass travel the same distance regardless of volume?
It's not a matter of distance, it's a matter of level. Outdoors the level drops by 6dB per each doubling of distance from the source. Lets say that distance is 64 meters. If you start with a 100dB level at 1 meter it will be 64dB at 64 meters. That's a difference of 36dB. If you start with a 120dB level at 1 meter it will be 84dB at 64 meters. That's a difference of 36dB. The difference at 64 meters versus 1 meter is always 36dB, no matter what the level is at the source.
Quote:
If the sub I get is rated down to 30hz or so, and has "only" 200W maximum, would that still get me the sound I'm looking for with 2800cu ft.?
That depends on the sensitivity of the sub. Volume isn't measured in watts, it's measured in decibels. How many decibels you will get per watt is the speaker sensitivity. Most subs run around 85dB sensitivity, and if rated for 200w might get to 105dB at full power. Large horn loaded subs can do 105dB with one watt. eek.gif
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post #17 of 38 Old 12-15-2012, 04:27 PM
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I think that the Klipsch http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/549185018/klipsch-sw308?s_c=site_search&SSAID=389818
is a good deal, and probably what you are gonna buy. The speakers you have are very nice, and I think the Klipsch SW-308, with
dual passive radiators, will complement them nicely.....if placed near field. 2800 cu ft is a lot of area. You're in an apartment, so you
have to keep the level of the speakers and sub at a volume you enjoy, but not so loud as to bother the neighbors.

Most guys here listen at ref level, or just a little bit lower. I have a Rel T1 sub (currently in storage) and it a 10" sub, with a 10" passive
radiator, 300 watt amp. I used it for a while, but in a space that is 1800 cu ft enclosed. It was placed about 9' away from me and it
did OK. (This is not a sales pitch).

The Klipsch RW at $299 is getting harder and harder to find. Most sites they are sold out. I don't know about "newegg" because
the site doesn't show a price. It just keeps loading and loading info.

If I were you I would get the RW-12, but for an apartment it is overkill. Just my opinion.

Also Bills info is very valuable. He knows his stuff.

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post #18 of 38 Old 12-15-2012, 04:33 PM
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I could have sworn that I read that Klipsch will not honor the warranty from Vanns due to the recent bankruptcy issues. I would confirm this, and I myself would get the sealed SVS sub SB1000.
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post #19 of 38 Old 12-15-2012, 05:10 PM
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I was in a similar situation as you were about a week ago. I live in an apartment open Floor plan roughly 3000 cubic feet, ended up purchasing a Klipsch RW12d. I live above some one as well and also living in the middle of 3 other apartments. I normally listen to my music around 65-68db. I have not had one complaint from my neighbors. I am actually tempted to purchase a 2nd. If you have any questions feel free to shoot me a message. My 2.1(for now) consists of a Denon 3312 polk lsi9's and a rw12d if it matters to you.

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post #20 of 38 Old 12-17-2012, 06:42 AM
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I'm also an apartment dweller here and I've never recieved complains about my bass. I have someone on all sides on the 3rd floor of a 4 story building. The insulation between units is ok, i can easily hear the person above me walking around on his hardwood floor. The only time I had a complaint was when I had a few friends over and we were playing Rock Band. I think the banging on the drums is what did it. LOL

I have a Denon AVR-1610, Infinity P163 Fronts, Infinity PC251 Center, Infinity P143 Rears & SVS PB10-NSD Sub... I usually keep the volume for movies at around -25db to -20db and -35db to -30db for TV and Video Games. Sometimes higher during the summer if the A/C is running.
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post #21 of 38 Old 07-29-2013, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

I've been in my apartment for over a year now. I have a Bic F12. Nothing extreme, but easily shakes the dishes in my cabinet.

Living on top of someone was scary at first, but I slowly worked my way up with the volume over the course of a few weeks. The complaints never came. I have yet to receive a complaint despite being able to feel the bass in my chest.

Now, I try to only play it loud at reasonable times. But regardless, I thought by now someone would've felt it annoying enough to complain.

I say go for it. Don't worry about having too much power, as you can always turn it down if you start to worry.

Keep an eye on this. I've heard good things about the RW-12d, and it regularly goes on sale for $299 on newegg.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882780078

The phrase "I have yet to receive a complaint" may only tell you that the neighbors are afraid to complain or just don't want the hassle. It seems unlikely that bass at those chest-felt levels wouldn't transmit to other units. Do you ever talk to them about other things where noise topics might come up?

Due to the insidious music-less bumping that even low-volume subwoofers produce for non-active listeners, they're a potential form of evil in any apartment. Music is only music when one is in control of it. Otherwise it's noise. The bass only needs to be loud enough to barely be felt/heard to cause a chronic nuisance.

I'm glad you're more conscientious than ghetto dregs, but it's still not appropriate for all but the best-built apartments. Many apartments were constructed before subwoofers existed, and I doubt they build most these days to specifically block bass.
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post #22 of 38 Old 07-29-2013, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscorv58 View Post

I was in a similar situation as you were about a week ago. I live in an apartment open Floor plan roughly 3000 cubic feet, ended up purchasing a Klipsch RW12d. I live above some one as well and also living in the middle of 3 other apartments. I normally listen to my music around 65-68db. I have not had one complaint from my neighbors. I am actually tempted to purchase a 2nd. If you have any questions feel free to shoot me a message. My 2.1(for now) consists of a Denon 3312 polk lsi9's and a rw12d if it matters to you.

"I have not had one complaint from my neighbors" means little in terms of whether they are actually hearing or feeling the bass. It just tells you that they are too meek to speak up, or apathetically write off bump, buMP, BUMP as a fact of modern life.

If you stand outside your front door and can hear/feel the bass, it could be substantially worse inside neighboring units. The idea that non-directional bass magically gets absorbed in a (typical) apt. building is wishful thinking and probably self-serving. There are numerous articles that say subwoofers simply don't belong in apartment buildings, and I know it firsthand.
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post #23 of 38 Old 07-29-2013, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Bass travels through walls, floors and ceilings because the wavelengths are 12 to 60 feet long. The only thing that stops them is mass in floors/ceilings, as in a foot or more of solid concrete, and the same or complex double studded constrained layer double thickness sheet rock walls. And because room modes can cause phase cancellation nulls in the room, based on the sub and listening position placements, a sub can be louder in a adjoining apartment than it is in your own. That being the case, don't go overboard...or buy a house.

That pretty well sums up why subwoofers in all but bunker-like apartments are nothing but a nuisance to people trying to relax or sleep in their own places. All they get is endless bumping and thudding, like a burglar who never quite breaks in. It literally creates a sense of dread. How can anyone rationalize that as common decency?

These threads can be found in various forums and they all reek of denial and self-absorption disguised as audio minutia. Decibel measurements of subwoofers are nearly useless since all but the finest meters aren't sensitive in that range and can't pick up gut-felt bass even if they were. There are some things it's just not cool to do in a shared-wall/floor situation.

It's a lot like the problem with wind turbines and infrasonic noise. You can't get away from it inside. It's like a bad smell that seeps through every crack.
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post #24 of 38 Old 07-30-2013, 02:56 AM
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^I agree with what you're saying, but was a necro bump and a triple post really necessary?
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post #25 of 38 Old 07-30-2013, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec Sevins View Post

That pretty well sums up why subwoofers in all but bunker-like apartments are nothing but a nuisance to people trying to relax or sleep in their own places. All they get is endless bumping and thudding, like a burglar who never quite breaks in. It literally creates a sense of dread. How can anyone rationalize that as common decency?

I'm sure you realize that you don't speak for everyone. Naturally your likes and dislikes aren't the same as the rest of the human population.

I happen to know for a fact that some people find loud noises soothing, and are most uncomfortable when there is silence. What is a sense of dread to you is not the same for others.

In shared environments, it's always a good idea to know who and what you're dealing with. So talk to your neighbors, do sound tests from inside their apartments to see what sound levels they're ok with, and check in every once in awhile as a precaution and to just be friendly. Your neighbors may work different shifts than you, might not be home during certain times of the day, and other things you can take into consideration. But you won't know this unless you talk to them, so don't assume everything is ok because no one has complained.

 




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post #26 of 38 Old 07-31-2013, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Alec Sevins View Post

The phrase "I have yet to receive a complaint" may only tell you that the neighbors are afraid to complain or just don't want the hassle. It seems unlikely that bass at those chest-felt levels wouldn't transmit to other units. Do you ever talk to them about other things where noise topics might come up?

Due to the insidious music-less bumping that even low-volume subwoofers produce for non-active listeners, they're a potential form of evil in any apartment. Music is only music when one is in control of it. Otherwise it's noise. The bass only needs to be loud enough to barely be felt/heard to cause a chronic nuisance.

I'm glad you're more conscientious than ghetto dregs, but it's still not appropriate for all but the best-built apartments. Many apartments were constructed before subwoofers existed, and I doubt they build most these days to specifically block bass.

Yikes, this is old.

But, I've actually upgraded from the Bic F12 to something more..sinister..I suppose. cool.gif

I've actually been in the neighbor's apartments while playing music loudly. I rarely listen at the ridiculous levels anyways, so it hasn't been a problem. The bass was very minimal in their apartments while it was pounding away in my apartment above them.

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post #27 of 38 Old 07-31-2013, 02:51 PM
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Yes, even I think you having an 18" sub in an apartment is ridiculous. wink.gif

 




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post #28 of 38 Old 08-01-2013, 04:39 AM
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I run a PB12-Plus/2 in a 20'x14'x7'8" apartment wink.gif


Concrete block construction, double glazing, thick doors and a lot of insulation means that sound tranmission is remarkably low given the output of the sub! smile.gif

I still exercise common sense, though; I only really crank it up when downstairs and the adjacent neighbours are out, and I always try to finish watching films by around midnight. Films are 'better' than music IMO - in that it is not a regular thumping beat, more the occasional rumble during a noisy scene.


Downstairs can't really complain anyway - he and his orange girlfriend subjected me to 6 months of repetitive banging late at night till he moved his bed away from the wall... LOL



Is it bad that I'm hoping to build a 4xSI18 sealed setup, run off probably 2xEP4000s? tongue.gif
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post #29 of 38 Old 08-01-2013, 10:48 AM
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It actually sounds like you have the right apartment, neighbors, and decency to pull off 4 18's. I consider you extremely lucky.

 




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post #30 of 38 Old 08-02-2013, 08:36 AM
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I do consider myself lucky too! smile.gif

I always try to remember to take time to appreciate the fact I can 'get away' with what I do - now I've had the decent bass experience it would be a struggle to go back!
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