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post #1 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Its time to make a decision.
I currently have a Elemental Designs A3-300 that has been great, but cannot cut it my new home, so its moving to the master bedroom.

Room dimensions are 20 x 16 x 15 with two openings to kitchen and family room.
Mostly 90% movies, 10% music.

I guess my question is, with the budget I have allowed myself, what would most people go with?

Obviously I am looking at Seaton Submersive HP, which would be at the upper end of my budget.

But with that in mind, and I know this is probably a dumb question, but how big of a difference is there
between lets say a submersive HP, and a PSA XS30, which is half the cost? I know the seaton has almost 120% more power output, but is there really a $1500 difference that I will be able to feel?
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post #2 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 03:16 PM
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I would seriously consider getting two Rythmik FV15HP's. If you got them with the 550 amp instead of the 600 (.5db difference between the two) shipped you would be looking right around $2600

I just got one last week and have been very impressed so far.

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post #3 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkashoe View Post

Its time to make a decision.
I currently have a Elemental Designs A3-300 that has been great, but cannot cut it my new home, so its moving to the master bedroom.
Room dimensions are 20 x 16 x 15 with two openings to kitchen and family room.
Mostly 90% movies, 10% music.
I guess my question is, with the budget I have allowed myself, what would most people go with?
Obviously I am looking at Seaton Submersive HP, which would be at the upper end of my budget.
But with that in mind, and I know this is probably a dumb question, but how big of a difference is there
between lets say a submersive HP, and a PSA XS30, which is half the cost? I know the seaton has almost 120% more power output, but is there really a $1500 difference that I will be able to feel?

What are your listening habits? Reference level, or below? Are you looking for a single only or would you consider duals?
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post #4 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
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walke, thanks for the response.
The room is huge, so i usually listen close to reference so i get that in your face sound.
I'm open to either, though single probably would be preferable due to space constraints in the room (couch location, wiring). Duals would be hard to pull off, but if its worth it, then I would make it happen.
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post #5 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkashoe View Post

walke, thanks for the response.
The room is huge, so i usually listen close to reference so i get that in your face sound.
I'm open to either, though single probably would be preferable due to space constraints in the room (couch location, wiring). Duals would be hard to pull off, but if its worth it, then I would make it happen.
JTR passive cap...or a few more hundred(on top of your budget) and u can get an active one.tons of output more than any listed here.

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post #6 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 04:47 PM
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Dual XS30s?
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No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

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post #7 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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JTR also crossed my mind, an 18" driver would be crazy coming from a 12" (as-300). I think the Captivator 2400 is $2499, doesn't specify if shipping is included though. Thats an option thats on the table too.

Now the dual xs30's is intriguing, but is a single 2400 watt submersive better than 2 750 watt xs30's? I guess thats the question I am asking. Is the extra wattage of the submersive better?

Any other insight on this? Thanks for your responses guys.
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post #8 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkashoe View Post

JTR also crossed my mind, an 18" driver would be crazy coming from a 12" (as-300). I think the Captivator 2400 is $2499, doesn't specify if shipping is included though. Thats an option thats on the table too.
Now the dual xs30's is intriguing, but is a single 2400 watt submersive better than 2 750 watt xs30's? I guess thats the question I am asking. Is the extra wattage of the submersive better?
Any other insight on this? Thanks for your responses guys.
I believe the thought of going with duals is to cancel out any nulls in the room. If you collocate the subs then I think there is some worthy comparisons. If you are going with one in each corner then I believe you are gaining headroom but not necessarily with output...
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post #9 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I guess im looking purely for output.
But still no one has answered my underlying question, specifically, is it worth $1500 more to go with a seaton subversive vs lets say a PSA xs-30, where both are dual sealed 15's but the seaton has a 1675 watt advantage. Is that wattage advantage going to give me a dramatic and discernible difference in perceived output. Am i going to feel a $1500 difference? Is it output, extension, accuracy?
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post #10 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 06:05 PM
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if it's output at reference you want call Jeff at JTR Speakers and ask him if he has any year end model closeout or overstock or b stock on a pair of passive captivators. A pair of passive caps is unbeatable outside of DIY for output for $. I have a pair and they are my single favorite purchase I've ever made.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #11 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkashoe View Post

I guess im looking purely for output.
But still no one has answered my underlying question, specifically, is it worth $1500 more to go with a seaton subversive vs lets say a PSA xs-30, where both are dual sealed 15's but the seaton has a 1675 watt advantage. Is that wattage advantage going to give me a dramatic and discernible difference in perceived output. Am i going to feel a $1500 difference? Is it output, extension, accuracy?

Goto the PSA website and send a message to Tom or Jim and talk it over with them. They are great at taking the time to explain things and answering any questions you have. I bet they respond immediately, not tonight on Christmas of course. Considering you could get dual XS-30's for under your budget, they might be something to consider. I have dual XV-30's and they are insane!! Considering you have a larger room with openings, you may consider a ported sub. Dual XV-15's would be perfect and at $799 a piece shipped, they are a heck of a sub for the buck. If you want to raise the roof, consider dual XV-30's, a few hundred over budget and a $1000 under budget for a single and they do require some room considering their size, but well worth it, ask my neighbors biggrin.gif

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post #12 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 06:30 PM
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+1 to the above comment. I have dual XV-15's in an 1800cu ft room. Plenty of woofage, that's
for sure. Deep and clean. I know I could of got away with one in that room easily, but I
feel two balances out the bass nicely, Deep with great output. You get a 5% discount if
you order duals also. The black/dark gray sand like finish is certainly acceptable in most
households.

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post #13 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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What exactly is the difference between passive and active on the JTR's? I thought passive just meant it came with no amp or am I wrong.
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post #14 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Im leaning towards the PSA route, but I doubt I will have enough room to put two XV30's, as they are huge! Twin XS30's is more likely due to my location constraints, but at what cost or what am I really giving up, how much output.
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post #15 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkashoe View Post

What exactly is the difference between passive and active on the JTR's? I thought passive just meant it came with no amp or am I wrong.


passive is the same - just sans amp and eq.

a single EP4000 ($275 at wal-mart http://www.walmart.com/ip/Behringer-Stereo-Power-Amplifier/17656014) will do wonders on a pair of caps (if on a tight budget) this combo hit 125dB on rat shack meter before clipping in my 3500 cubic foot basement at the main listening position while my pair of SVS PB13 Ultras could only hit 115dB (same day testings/same dubstep song material), but to really take it to the limits you need something like this CV5000 -- $680 after coupon and a mic2200 or some other DSP option. This setup will get into the low 130dBs at listening position.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/cerwin-vega-cv-5000-high-performance-professional-power-amplifier
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/behringer-ultragain-pro-mic2200

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #16 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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archaea, just for argument's sake, lets assume i want to go with a single passive captivator, using the EP4000 amp. Would I still need a DSP if I am using a DENON 4311 receiver with audessy xt32?
Am i reading this correctly, that amp puts out 4000 watts????
For now I would go with a single, then pursue a second one down the road if I feel its not enough.

This has me very curious your suggestion. Im assuming this will be a giant upgrade in terms of out put from my current A3-300 12 inch sub in my space. I would imagine day and night!

Ive never had a sub that didn't come with an amp. Does the amp sit separate from the sub? or would it be like my a3-300 where i would attach the amp to the box itself?
Now I am getting excited.
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post #17 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 08:51 PM
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lol

yes

does your ED do this?



a single cap with an EP4000 will knock your socks off - but why go single when you can go dual? and knock both socks off. tongue.gif

A EP4000 amp isn't powerful enough to damage the JTR 18" driver.

The EP4000 is rated at 4000 watts peak, and the JTR driver is rated at 7,200 watts peak.

I'd recommend something like the MIC2200 to apply a HPF if you are putting close to recommended wattage to it (with an amp like my Crown XLS-5000 or the Cerwin Vega CV-5000) but I used an EP4000 single amp on my pair of JTR caps without a HPF and it was fine. I never once bottomed out the drivers on the EP4000. You'd be fine too.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #18 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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archaea, i've seen your video before.. No way my A3-300 even puts out 1/25th of that much air. LOL

You pretty much have sold me on this set up. So i have a few more questions if you don't mind.
As for the single vs double, I will get one and then decide if I even need a second, as it will be hard to find a space for the second one in my setup.

Assuming I go with the EP4000, your saying I don't need the MIC? Looks like the MIC is only $100, so I can swing that, but what exactly does it do for the set up?
Wouldn't the Denon apply a HPF in the LFE?

Also, can you elaborate on the amp location. Would it have to sit on my entertainment rack, or does it get attached to the sub box. This is the only part i am not familiar with.

Assuming I am looking at this correctly, I can get the passive captivator for $1499 (does that include shipping), then the amp for $275? So I would be in under $2000. Wow.
Whats the catch?
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post #19 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkashoe View Post

archaea, just for argument's sake, lets assume i want to go with a single passive captivator, using the EP4000 amp. Would I still need a DSP if I am using a DENON 4311 receiver with audessy xt32?
Am i reading this correctly, that amp puts out 4000 watts????
For now I would go with a single, then pursue a second one down the road if I feel its not enough.
This has me very curious your suggestion. Im assuming this will be a giant upgrade in terms of out put from my current A3-300 12 inch sub in my space. I would imagine day and night!
Ive never had a sub that didn't come with an amp. Does the amp sit separate from the sub? or would it be like my a3-300 where i would attach the amp to the box itself?
Now I am getting excited.
A passive sub just doesn't have the amp built into the enclosure. The amp sits separate from the sub.

For my vote, Id say either the Passive JTR Caps w/ an EP4000 (maybe EP2500 would work fine in his set up? Archae?) or dual XS30s

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post #20 of 106 Old 12-25-2012, 10:57 PM
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the Mic2200 provides two parametric eq functions if you want them, and an hpf. your denon/audyssey will not apply an hpf. a hpf rolls of frequencies below port tune which can help prevent over excursion of the driver and distortion. my personal exp is that you won't need a hpf with a ep 4000 on real world material. it doesn't have enough guts to bottom out the JTR driver even on tracks like war of the world's. though it is still crazy loud.

you can mount the amp any where you choose. I've seen guys put it on the sub, in the av rack, or in an adjacent room.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #21 of 106 Old 12-26-2012, 12:11 AM
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I'm running dual XS30s in a 2100cubic/ft theater room and its pretty amazing. I'm more then happy with the results. I was originally going to go with a single JTR Captivator S1, but for less money I was able to get the dual XS30s. Not to mention that PSA's customer service is over the top and Tom was awesome to deal with. The subs also have a 5 year warranty, and it's nice to see that the warranty is transferable because PSA stands behind the sub no matter if you're the first owner of it or not! That's alway a plus.
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post #22 of 106 Old 12-26-2012, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Jbrown, im closer to 4000 cubic feet.

So now the question is, like you have said many times achaea, do i prefer the sealed sub sound or ported sub sound.

Im thinking getting rid one of the cabinets, and centering the other one, and having two subs on each side. hmmmmm

Archaea, you have twin captivators with what amp? If I am going to do it, i want to do it right! I think you mentioned the cerwin amp

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post #23 of 106 Old 12-26-2012, 04:14 PM
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I use the crown xls-5000 because I got it at a steal on closeout, but the cerwin vega cv-5000 is the same thing, and has a few more bells and whistles over my crown. Both of these amps offer 2,500 watts per channel at 2ohm, which is plenty to bring down the dust from the ceiling in your theater room, even perhaps do structural damage to your home if you should want tongue.gif. Tell Jeff to wire your Captitvators for 2ohm and you can run 2,500 watts to each one. You WON'T be disappointed with SPL capability or sound quality. Buy a mic2200 and put a HPF in place at around 17hz for the 2012 models and you'll be golden.

http://www.cerwinvega.com/pro-audio/high-performance-amplifiers/cv-5000.html

it can be had for $680 at musiciansfriend or guitarcenter after a 15% off coupon -- which they constantly run on their site or send out to e-mail list subscribers. (they only have 10% off right now advertised, but my buddy has had good luck just contacting live chat support and asking for a 15% off coupon.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/cerwin-vega-cv-5000-high-performance-professional-power-amplifier)

Guitar center has it for $699 right now after the $100 off $500 or more coupon.
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Cerwin-Vega-CV-5000-High-Performance-Professional-Power-Amplifier-H69833-i1688723.gc


The age old question of Ported vs. Sealed sound was rendered somewhat less relevant at the 2012 KC blind meet thread linked in my signature, when all the nine blind voters couldn't even distinguish which audition was ported and which was sealed.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #24 of 106 Old 12-26-2012, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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So I am looking at $699 for the amp, $100 for the mic2200, and $2800 for both captivators (not sure if shipping is included).
I cant swing that much right now, it will have to be one sub at a time.

I may just go with the EP4000 and one captivator for now.

Not sure what I was thinking, i totally forgot each captivator is $1499

Also pushing 2500 watts per channel, do i need to run a separate circuit for that amp????
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post #25 of 106 Old 12-26-2012, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkashoe View Post

Jbrown, im closer to 4000 cubic feet.
So now the question is, like you have said many times achaea, do i prefer the sealed sub sound or ported sub sound.
Im thinking getting rid one of the cabinets, and centering the other one, and having two subs on each side. hmmmmm
Archaea, you have twin captivators with what amp? If I am going to do it, i want to do it right! I think you mentioned the cerwin amp

Even at 4000cubic/ft dual XS30s should have too much troule pressurizing your room. Go to the Power Sound Audio webpage and email Tom, give him a quick drawing of your room and he'll give you a good idea of what to expect from the subs they offer. He doesn't try to sugar coat things about his subs and he'll give you an honest opinion how the PSA subs compare to other subs. I seem to recall him telling me that two Cap S1's from JTR would probably give me more output then dual XS30s. But a single Cap S1 was more then dual XS30s.

If you read in the Power Sound Audio thread I'm pretty sure there was someone else that just bought dual XS30s that had a room over 5000cubic/ft.
The only thing that might be a down side for you; is the PSA subs aren't too flashy.
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post #26 of 106 Old 12-26-2012, 06:04 PM
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you need a 20 amp circuit for the 5000 watt amps.


consider a pair of caps + a single ep4000 with no Mic2200. that setup hit 125dB in my room on dub step before the clip lights started tapping. 125dB bass at listening position is still plenty and you might find it more than enough. if you want to buy a bigger amp later to get to the low 130dB level you can sell the ep4000 on craigslist for little or no loss. I sold mine for 275 on craigslist.


I'm serious about talking to Jeff and see if he has any b stock, closeouts, or year end sales. no promises, but he may have something available at a discount.

shipping is usually not included in the price, but Jeff ships via freight truck so it's the same basic cost to ship one or two.

his shop is based close to Chicago. if you are close go visit, he has a demo room.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #27 of 106 Old 12-27-2012, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigro View Post

I would seriously consider getting two Rythmik FV15HP's. If you got them with the 550 amp instead of the 600 (.5db difference between the two) shipped you would be looking right around $2600
I just got one last week and have been very impressed so far.

Actually, you can get duals of the FV15HP with the regular (600) amp for $2574 shipped. You get a 10% discount when purchased in pairs (discount on shipping does not apply).

 

I too would recommend two FV15HPs. What's rare about this sub is the large output it has at very low frequencies. I can't think of another ported commercial sub that gives you 12hz extension with significant output (98.5db) at that frequency like these. Additionally, they sound, look, and 'feel' amazing. You'll love the low stuff. smile.gif



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post #28 of 106 Old 12-27-2012, 03:36 PM
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If you can't swing the caps (overbudget?) - I too recommend the Rythmik FV15HP pair.

You can read comparisons on a pair of caps vs. a single FV15HP in this thread as noted by a bunch of attendees. For what it's worth I think the FV15HP is a winner too.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434901/northeast-october-20th-gtg-results-thread/

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post #29 of 106 Old 12-27-2012, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

lol
yes
does your ED do this?

a single cap with an EP4000 will knock your socks off - but why go single when you can go dual? and knock both socks off. tongue.gif
A EP4000 amp isn't powerful enough to damage the JTR 18" driver.
The EP4000 is rated at 4000 watts peak, and the JTR driver is rated at 7,200 watts peak.
I'd recommend something like the MIC2200 to apply a HPF if you are putting close to recommended wattage to it (with an amp like my Crown XLS-5000 or the Cerwin Vega CV-5000) but I used an EP4000 single amp on my pair of JTR caps without a HPF and it was fine. I never once bottomed out the drivers on the EP4000. You'd be fine too.
Who are you fooling, there are just a few cats under that sleeping bag. tongue.gifwink.gif

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post #30 of 106 Old 12-27-2012, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Even at 4000cubic/ft dual XS30s should have too much troule pressurizing your room. Go to the Power Sound Audio webpage and email Tom, give him a quick drawing of your room and he'll give you a good idea of what to expect from the subs they offer. He doesn't try to sugar coat things about his subs and he'll give you an honest opinion how the PSA subs compare to other subs. I seem to recall him telling me that two Cap S1's from JTR would probably give me more output then dual XS30s. But a single Cap S1 was more then dual XS30s.
If you read in the Power Sound Audio thread I'm pretty sure there was someone else that just bought dual XS30s that had a room over 5000cubic/ft.
The only thing that might be a down side for you; is the PSA subs aren't too flashy.
+1, but I will add if you go with the XS-30's I would order them sooner than later. They are selling faster than they can make em.

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