What's your subwoofer level relative to Reference Level? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 89 Old 01-27-2013, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Makes sense. I don't like it but your above makes sense. Based on your above, it reads as if the makers of Audyssey need to make according adjustments to allow for speaker systems that have high speaker sensitivity. Our "Klipsch" mains and center channel have a sensitivity of 100dB for the mains and 99dB for the center channel.
You're not at the end of the range, so it's not a problem. Just don't change them them by using the SPL meter and the manual test tones. When you do that, you are changing the relative calibrations and the Reference Level calibration.

If you want to change them, change them all by the same amount. IOW, turn ALL the trims up by 5 dB. That will put you closer to the middle of the trim ranges. The only difference this will make is that now RL will be at -5 instead of 0.

Once you've run Audyssey, the only thing you should do with your SPL meter is hook it up to REW and run FR measurements and waterfalls to verify Audyssey has done it's job.

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post #62 of 89 Old 01-27-2013, 08:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If you want to change them, change them all by the same amount. IOW, turn ALL the trims up by 5 dB. That will put you closer to the middle of the trim ranges. The only difference this will make is that now RL will be at -5 instead of 0.

Complex issues are taking place that need to be taken into consideration. One being the conflict nulls cause in the listening experience (trying to use the volume control to compensate for the null) and second, no worries as the highest master volume setting we use while Home Theater listening is -10 to -15dB. As always, one's mileage will vary accordingly. In our case, the internal, AVR speaker gain settings are left alone.

Currently, television listening is in the -50 to -40dB range. Before dealing with subwoofer related null issues, television listening levels were set to -25dB. I find the better subwoofer nulls are corrected for, the less volume is needed to achieve satisfying listening levels.

Interestingly, as nulls are corrected, I find organ music and violins are less harsh on the ears. Currently using Bach's, "Toccata and Fugue: in D Minor for Organ" to monitor bass and treble changes. The next problem, the better sound reproduction quality becomes, the more revealing a system becomes to poorly mastered recordings and playback decks. It never stops.
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post #63 of 89 Old 01-27-2013, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Complex issues are taking place that need to be taken into consideration. One being the conflict nulls cause in the listening experience (trying to use the volume control to compensate for the null) and second, no worries as the highest master volume setting we use while Home Theater listening is -10 to -15dB. As always, one's mileage will vary accordingly. In our case, the internal, AVR speaker gain settings are left alone.
You've stated on numerous occasions that you use your SPL meter and the AVR test tones to re-balance the levels after running Audyssey. How are you doing that if, as you say, "In our case, the internal, AVR speaker gain settings are left alone"?
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Currently, television listening is in the -50 to -40dB range. Before dealing with subwoofer related null issues, television listening levels were set to -25dB. I find the better subwoofer nulls are corrected for, the less volume is needed to achieve satisfying listening levels.

Interestingly, as nulls are corrected, I find organ music and violins are less harsh on the ears. Currently using Bach's, "Toccata and Fugue: in D Minor for Organ" to monitor bass and treble changes. The next problem, the better sound reproduction quality becomes, the more revealing a system becomes to poorly mastered recordings and playback decks. It never stops.
Since acoustic treatments are against the rules at your house, and EQ can't fix nulls, the only tools in your toolbox for fixing nulls is subwoofer positioning and listening position adjustment. You should be optimizing those two FIRST, before running Audyssey. Once you've achieved the best in room response you can get with sub and LP placements, run Audyssey on the result. The better the starting point Audyssey is given, the better the final result will be.

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post #64 of 89 Old 01-27-2013, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

@ bowmah
Play Cloverfield...start from time 19:50 ...watch for 3 minutes.

Just checked out this movie on YouTube. Looks like a keeper thanks for sharing.

Also just watched Avengers again with +2dB. Oh my goodness. Almost feeling nauseous with 2 hours of seat shaking and room rattling. Lol. Love it!
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post #65 of 89 Old 01-27-2013, 07:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You've stated on numerous occasions that you use your SPL meter and the AVR test tones to re-balance the levels after running Audyssey. How are you doing that if, as you say, "In our case, the internal, AVR speaker gain settings are left alone"?

Simple, I only changed the subwoofer settings and not the L/C/R or surround speaker settings because my current focus is on the subwoofer's acoustic interactions.

Today, one of the subs was moved, phase and frequency limit potentiometer setting changes were made and the measured seventeen dB, 28Hz null, is gone. Then Anti-Mode was run. biggrin.gif Audyssey was not run today. frown.gif

The good news, I didn't need to hang any wall treatments on the wall (which would quite literally make my wife cry) in an effort to get rid of the 28Hz null. Now the frequency graph extends flat to the driver's 25Hz frequency limit before expectedly beginning to roll off.

Tomorrow, I'll play some more with the subwoofers to see what sort of positive changes I can effect and then Anti-Mode and Audyssey will hopefully be given a final run. Currently, I'm now down to -55dB on the main listening volume from an original volume setting of -25dB. Pretty soon, the subwoofer system will be so efficiently dialed in, I'll be able to shut the AVR off and still be able to hear the dialogue just fine. tongue.gif

Once again, the point, having a properly integrated subwoofer system in one's listening venue, negates the need to run one's subs "hot" to compensate for the short comings of bad subwoofer related acoustics. The key is getting subwoofers out of their own way by creating a straight frequency graph line.

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post #66 of 89 Old 01-27-2013, 08:45 PM
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For movies and TV watching, I run mine 3dB higher than Audyssey set mine at when listening from -25 to -5, or so. Higher than -5 to Reference (or above), I turn it (sub level) down to the -2, where Audyssey has them set. I only have 2EQ and run two Outlaws, so I don't really have sub-eq. Plus, I have a dreaded square room with some crap-tastic openings.

For music, I usually bump the sub level up to +5 to as high as it will go, depending on what type of music and how loud I'm listening. The Onkyo 608 doesn't seem to do stereo music as well as other receivers.

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post #67 of 89 Old 01-29-2013, 01:13 PM
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@Skylinestar , have not watched Cloverfield yet. But did enjoy 2 hours of Avengers seat shaking and felt a little queasy afterwards lol. Maybe +2dB is too much? lol
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post #68 of 89 Old 01-29-2013, 05:46 PM
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For me this has been one of the best threads on here. I learned a lot about what Audyssey is trying to do and what the settings are referencing and that attenuators will help my system. My one remaining question is why does Audyssey get my LCR to -12, rears to -3 and sub to -9 yet the LCR's will be at 75db, rears at 71db and the sub at 61db. The LCR's are at the correct volume but why are the rears not boosted up 4db and why is the sub soooo low? The gain is at about noon on the sub amp...
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post #69 of 89 Old 01-30-2013, 03:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post

For me this has been one of the best threads on here. I learned a lot about what Audyssey is trying to do and what the settings are referencing and that attenuators will help my system. My one remaining question is why does Audyssey get my LCR to -12, rears to -3 and sub to -9 yet the LCR's will be at 75db, rears at 71db and the sub at 61db. The LCR's are at the correct volume but why are the rears not boosted up 4db and why is the sub soooo low? The gain is at about noon on the sub amp...
May I know what SPL meter are you using? Perhaps the meter is not accurate in the low frequency region.
Are you sure the sub level is too low? Have you tried playing Underworld:Awakening to verify the bass level? biggrin.gif
Perhaps you'll get better answer in the dedicated Audyssey thread.
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post #70 of 89 Old 01-30-2013, 07:44 AM
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Here is what I have for a SPL meter.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/American-Recorder-Technologies-Sound-Level-Meter-102671419-i1133997.gc
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post #71 of 89 Old 01-30-2013, 08:13 AM
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are you connecting commercial AV receiver to pro amp that used to drive your sub? perhaps there is a mismatch in signal level
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post #72 of 89 Old 01-30-2013, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by WereWolf84 View Post

are you connecting commercial AV receiver to pro amp that used to drive your sub? perhaps there is a mismatch in signal level

Onkyo PRSC886 ->XLR->Crest CC4000 amp (or inuke6000dsp)

Didn't matter what amp I use, if I put gain to about noon it sets the sub at -9db on level calibration yet yields a 61-63db output.
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post #73 of 89 Old 01-31-2013, 05:02 PM
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Level matched my subs to 75db this afternoon and it is insanely loud. So much so that at -10 on the volume control is was out of control. There is no way that is how the source material should have sounded. Did nothing fancy but backed them down to 63db and it sound so much more even and matched with the main speakers.
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post #74 of 89 Old 01-31-2013, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post

Level matched my subs to 75db this afternoon and it is insanely loud. So much so that at -10 on the volume control is was out of control. There is no way that is how the source material should have sounded. Did nothing fancy but backed them down to 63db and it sound so much more even and matched with the main speakers.

What spl meter are you using? I always use 72db (RS SPL Meter) and it works perfect for me. Are you set to LFE+MAIN on your receiver? Your meter might not be accurate? What settings are you using on your meter? I believe you are supposed to use C-band and Slow (if you have those settings)

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #75 of 89 Old 01-31-2013, 06:19 PM
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What spl meter are you using? I always use 72db (RS SPL Meter) and it works perfect for me. Are you set to LFE+MAIN on your receiver? Your meter might not be accurate? What settings are you using on your meter? I believe you are supposed to use C-band and Slow (if you have those settings)

I will look again at the receiver settings. Post Audyssey at 61-61db it sounds like a good blend with the mains. At 75db something is way off. Here is the spl meter I use.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/American-Recorder-Technologies-Sound-Level-Meter-102671419-i1133997.gc?CJAID=10449560&CJPID=6146852&CJSID=1fk4q52z7ix9q
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post #76 of 89 Old 01-31-2013, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post

Level matched my subs to 75db this afternoon and it is insanely loud. So much so that at -10 on the volume control is was out of control. There is no way that is how the source material should have sounded. Did nothing fancy but backed them down to 63db and it sound so much more even and matched with the main speakers.

What spl meter are you using? I always use 72db (RS SPL Meter) and it works perfect for me. Are you set to LFE+MAIN on your receiver? Your meter might not be accurate? What settings are you using on your meter? I believe you are supposed to use C-band and Slow (if you have those settings)

THANK YOU!!!

Changed to C band and that did it. Just reran Audyssey and got -15 on the subs but 74db on C band. Backed the gain down on both sub amps and now have it set at 75db and -14 level calibration.

Love this site....
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post #77 of 89 Old 01-31-2013, 09:03 PM
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I would turn down the sub amp more so your trim levels are not so close to the limits. Do the same for your LCR's if possible.
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post #78 of 89 Old 01-31-2013, 09:17 PM
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Trying to figure out how to match the inuke6000 and the crest amp.

LCR's are now level calibrated to +1 and the subs at -8.5.

Feeling the drivers I think the Crest powering the 4 18.1's is driving harder. I'd rather the 18.2's be pushing slightly more if I can't get everything level.
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post #79 of 89 Old 01-31-2013, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post

THANK YOU!!!

Changed to C band and that did it. Just reran Audyssey and got -15 on the subs but 74db on C band. Backed the gain down on both sub amps and now have it set at 75db and -14 level calibration.

Love this site....

SeaNile, -14 still seems high. When you run the test tone make sure you set the trim level in the receiver to 0 first. If you don't and you run the test tone with the trim at -14 and adjust the gain (back of sub) to 75dB you could see the issue at hand (might actually be higher than 75dB !) . Yea this is a great site but becareful....it's going to make you want to upgrade a lot lol

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #80 of 89 Old 01-31-2013, 09:33 PM
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Turned the gain down on both subs amps and got -8.5. That seems like a reasonable number. Now I have to try and figure out how to get the same output from 2 different sub amps.
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post #81 of 89 Old 02-07-2013, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

@ bowmah
Play Cloverfield...start from time 19:50 ...watch for 3 minutes.

Just watched this scene. What are you trying to do? Blow my sub lol. Good scene.

Total recall was just ok. Story and audio. Kung Fu Panda has great bass effects. Kung Fu Panda 2 was weak however.

Will watch Hotel Transylvania soon.
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post #82 of 89 Old 02-07-2013, 08:47 PM
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I have tired the subs on the hot side and the subs on the reference trim. I feel the overall SQ is better and more synergistic with the rest of the systems with the subs at reference trim. From reading these forums, I am not a bass head. I actually cut the trim on preset I use for TV and music. That is the great thing about this hobby, different taste for different people and the ability to setup your system so it sounds good to you.

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post #83 of 89 Old 07-13-2013, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Running your subs hot and running your subs at reference are two different things. Many run their subs hot but listen at below reference. I listen at reference and run my subs hot. So I hit over 126 dBs at times.
Thanks for the info.
My first post is updated. smile.gif
I change the topic title from "Is your subwoofer / LFE HOT?" to "What's your subwoofer level relative to Reference Level?"
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post #84 of 89 Old 07-13-2013, 08:37 PM
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Good point MK. I listen at about 10 below reference 80% of the time. I have boosted them +5 to coincide with my listening habits. If I'm feeling randy, I go as far as +10.

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post #85 of 89 Old 07-13-2013, 11:03 PM
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Yes I watch movies with my subs 10 dBs over reference, I can't help myself.
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post #86 of 89 Old 07-14-2013, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Yes I watch movies with my subs 10 dBs over reference, I can't help myself.

biggrin.gif lol... Make note> I expect to see MK in tinnitus thread, or have I? smile.gif

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post #87 of 89 Old 07-14-2013, 04:48 PM
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Nope, 42 and hearing is -3 dBs at 20khz. I have not been to many concerts. Like I said, my bass does not hurt your ears as I know what level I can take until the bass bothers me.
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post #88 of 89 Old 07-16-2013, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Yes I watch movies with my subs 10 dBs over reference, I can't help myself.

I just visited the Audiologist last week out of curiosity (BTW, my hearing is great for my age group). He said high SPL(irrespective of frequency) is very harmful even if it doesn't feel uncomfortable and Your 10db over reference subs are a very risky proposition as far as your hearing is concerned.

HToM

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post #89 of 89 Old 07-16-2013, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I just visited the Audiologist last week out of curiosity (BTW, my hearing is great for my age group). He said high SPL(irrespective of frequency) is very harmful even if it doesn't feel uncomfortable and Your 10db over reference subs are a very risky proposition as far as your hearing is concerned.

An interesting line from this research paper seems to support your statement:
Quote:
Exposure to narrow-band noise typically raises hearing thresholds at frequencies corresponding to the exposure stimulus (tonotopic) and at frequencies higher than the stimulus
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