Bic F12 is toast. Sub suggestions? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 01-08-2013, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey everyone! First post! I've lurked for a while but have run into a problem, and am now looking for suggestions! I have a BIC F12, that sadly died. The question is...should I just buy another F12 OR is there something else that is leaps and bounds better for a similar price? What I mainly do is Play games and listen to music(though this system will get a center speaker and some rear speakers whhen I want a 5.1 system for watching movies when I have a TV...someday)..so the F12 is nice because it was loud, deep and rumbly. It also looks like BIC/Acoustechs site is down..which worries me. Knowing that the F12 is standard which I am going to measure any other sub that I buy with....should I get another F12? I'd like to keep the price under $250, and even $250 is a bit of a stretch. Any suggestions are appreciated! Thanks:D
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post #2 of 21 Old 01-08-2013, 07:47 PM
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BIC's website worked for me. Perhaps it was just a temporary glitch.

The F12 can be had for around $200, which is a very solid price for it. There's really nothing that's "leaps and bounds" better then the F12 unless you want to pay a lot more. If you were happy with it before then maybe that's the one to go with again.

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post #3 of 21 Old 01-08-2013, 07:50 PM
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You can also get an F-12 off of Amazon. Not sure why the site being down or not is a problem. Great sub for the price. Owned two of them.

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post #4 of 21 Old 01-09-2013, 01:26 AM
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+1 to Jim and Prime

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post #5 of 21 Old 01-09-2013, 04:58 AM
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theres three components in your subwoofer

amp
driver / subwoofer
box

I doubt that the box is defective, so its either the driver or the amp, why not just get a replacement part, assuming you can tell which part is defective.

Both parts can be replaced easily with a screwdriver
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post #6 of 21 Old 01-09-2013, 09:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

Both parts can be replaced easily with a screwdriver

How much do the technicals play in the R-n-R equation? How much trouble can one get into by swapping out a driver or amplifier ? My understanding, everything is supposedly chosen carefully; driver to compliment the box and the Amp to compliment the driver and what each are tuned for and if you don't match each of these three parameters, you'll be messing with the whole space/time continuum thingy. ???
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post #7 of 21 Old 01-09-2013, 09:47 AM
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I assume he means with the proper Bic parts. My question though would be is it worth the time and energy to repair such a cheap sub? Probably have $125 and who knows how much time invested in fixing a $200 sub.

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post #8 of 21 Old 01-09-2013, 09:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

I assume he means with the proper Bic parts. My question though would be is it worth the time and energy to repair such a cheap sub? Probably have $125 and who knows how much time invested in fixing a $200 sub.

The reason for my question, as part of my learning curve lab experience, I have a pair of eighteen year old subs. Top of the line then, today, if that, they'd hardly qualify as a three hundred dollar sub. Just for giggles, which is code for an effort at throwing away good money, I'm looking to replace the current drivers with a pair of new drivers and then do a before and after measurement. In my intellectual travels, I've not been able to find information which will exact the lab results before lighting the candle. So I was curious if anybody could give insight as to what I can expect?

The old subs are tuned 28Hz - 120Hz and the replacement driver I've chosen has what I consider to be, similar sonic/power characteristics.

-
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post #9 of 21 Old 01-09-2013, 10:02 AM
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I see. Thats pretty technical. You should probably start a thread.

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post #10 of 21 Old 01-09-2013, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

In my intellectual travels, I've not been able to find information which will exact the lab results before lighting the candle. So I was curious if anybody could give insight as to what I can expect?

Methinks you haven't looked very hard wink.gif Welcome to the dark side :P
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post #11 of 21 Old 01-09-2013, 11:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

Methinks you haven't looked very hard wink.gif Welcome to the dark side :P

Been there, done that, opened the door, looked in.......no thanks, too scary. I'll stick to this one forum and be happy, thank-you.

I've done some online surfing to see what type of papers I could dig up but so far, nothing that directly addressed my needs. Based on what I've read, coupled with some quick math, there's enough natural (inherent) fudge factor that using the linked driver as a replacement driver, I can get away with a simple R-n-R.
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post #12 of 21 Old 01-09-2013, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Been there, done that, opened the door, looked in.......no thanks, too scary. I'll stick to this one forum and be happy, thank-you.
I've done some online surfing to see what type of papers I could dig up but so far, nothing that directly addressed my needs. Based on what I've read, coupled with some quick math, there's enough natural (inherent) fudge factor that using the linked driver as a replacement driver, I can get away with a simple R-n-R.

Lol. Start a thread - here or there - and I'll help you attempt to "exact the lab results before lighting the candle" smile.gif
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post #13 of 21 Old 01-09-2013, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Been there, done that, opened the door, looked in.......no thanks, too scary. I'll stick to this one forum and be happy, thank-you.
I've done some online surfing to see what type of papers I could dig up but so far, nothing that directly addressed my needs. Based on what I've read, coupled with some quick math, there's enough natural (inherent) fudge factor that using the linked driver as a replacement driver, I can get away with a simple R-n-R.
There is free software available that will model the subwoofer's response with the new driver:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-subwoofers-general-discussion/6330-winisd-pro-tutorial-download-detailed-guide-how-use-winisd-pro.html#axzz2HVirkgoQ
The link you posted to the driver has all the relevant T-S parameters. You already know the box dimensions and port sizes. The program will even allow you to figure out if the driver is adequately protected by the filters in the amp.

If your "intellectual travels" don't include such a trip up the learning curve, you could just wander over to the DIY forum and ask someone there who knows how to use the software to do the modeling for you.

Craig

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post #14 of 21 Old 01-09-2013, 12:36 PM
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I would get a pair of Martin Logan Dynamo 300 Subwoofers.

Here's a mini review of the ML Dynamo 300.

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post #15 of 21 Old 01-09-2013, 06:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

There is free software available that will model the subwoofer's response with the new driver:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-subwoofers-general-discussion/6330-winisd-pro-tutorial-download-detailed-guide-how-use-winisd-pro.html#axzz2HVirkgoQ

That went well, up to where the program wanted the T-S Parameters for the passive sub in the back of the box. tongue.gif

In a bit, when finances are caught up, I'll order the new driver, plug it in and start doing sweeps with REW and see what comes of the effort.
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post #16 of 21 Old 01-09-2013, 06:51 PM
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You selected the wrong alignment. Select "Ported" instead of "Passive Radiator."

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Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #17 of 21 Old 01-10-2013, 03:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You selected the wrong alignment. Select "Ported" instead of "Passive Radiator."

Question? Even though I have a passive radiator, I should choose ported? And if I choose ported, what size port should I enter to offset the exchange between a passive radiator and a port?

This is a bit daunting as I don't have necessary background information or reference material to bring me up to speed fast enough to be useful. That's not a lament but simply a statement of fact that in this case, I have zero background in which to share and work with the program you suggested. I followed the turtorial's instruction on how to enter the data so as to not upset the program requirements but have no information of the passive radiator.

I can turn the computer table into a work bench so as to disassemble one of the subwoofers so as to gain interior measurements but in this case, I'm afraid I'm paddling up against a current of colloquial ignorance.

Would this calculator be a better calculator choice in which to begin with?

Just for giggles, to see what I can see (learn), I'll bench and break the subwoofer down.

-
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post #18 of 21 Old 01-10-2013, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Question? Even though I have a passive radiator, I should choose ported? And if I choose ported, what size port should I enter to offset the exchange between a passive radiator and a port?-

You should really start your own thread instead of hijacking this one...
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post #19 of 21 Old 01-10-2013, 04:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

You should really start your own thread instead of hijacking this one...

Please, stop right there. I didn't hijack anything. At your behest, I was asked a question and civilly responded.accordingly. If you want to be the police, please be so kind as to chew out the individuals who made the suggestions I responded to. That would be you. My situation is directly tied into the OP's question. To maintain context, please reread the thread and you'll see my comments were tied directly to the flow of the OP's question.

Out of polite curiosity, do you have anything to add to the thread's topic? I find it odd that you would ask me a couple of unsolicited questions I didn't want to entertain and then accuse me of hijacking a thread by responding. As to my situation, it directly deals with the OP's question; rebuilding a sub to repair a failed part or buy a new one. Personally, what I'm doing is just that, I'm learning about rebuilding a sub for educational purposes, before buying a new sub. And in the case of replacing a driver, as I'm sure you know, you have incompatibility issues due to changes in the subwoofer's output characteristics, which are directly germane to the OP's question and any follow-up responses..

What would be your response to the OP's question? Buy new or repair the old? Why should the OP do either as what are the upside/downside for each of the possible choices? What complications will the OP run into? How will the OP know what needs to be done? Which is the best choice and why? It's your stage.

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post #20 of 21 Old 01-10-2013, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Question? Even though I have a passive radiator, I should choose ported? And if I choose ported, what size port should I enter to offset the exchange between a passive radiator and a port?
Sorry, you didn't identify which subs you had in this thread, and I thought I remembered you had ported Klipsch subs. Which subs are they?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

This is a bit daunting as I don't have necessary background information or reference material to bring me up to speed fast enough to be useful. That's not a lament but simply a statement of fact that in this case, I have zero background in which to share and work with the program you suggested. I followed the turtorial's instruction on how to enter the data so as to not upset the program requirements but have no information of the passive radiator.
Without the T-S parameters of the PR, you won't be able to proceed. Try contacting Klipsch and see if they'll give them up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I can turn the computer table into a work bench so as to disassemble one of the subwoofers so as to gain interior measurements but in this case, I'm afraid I'm paddling up against a current of colloquial ignorance.

Would this calculator be a better calculator choice in which to begin with?

Just for giggles, to see what I can see (learn), I'll bench and break the subwoofer down.

-
If you are replacing the driver in a sub with a PR, this is a much more involved design process than a simple sealed box, or even a ported design with a known port size and length. A PR is tuned by adding or removing mass. To tune a PR for use with a different driver would require the ability to add or remove mass from the PR. I doubt the Klipsch PR allows that functionality. Unless you want to delve seriously into PR-tuned subwoofer design, I suggest you forgo attempting to replace the drivers in your existing subs.

If you do want to pursue this further, then I echo Lennon's advice that you should start your own thread, preferably in the DIY forum. You will get more specifically directed responses in your own, dedicated thread.

Craig

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post #21 of 21 Old 01-10-2013, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Please, stop right there. I didn't hijack anything. At your behest, I was asked a question and civilly responded.accordingly. If you want to be the police, please be so kind as to chew out the individuals who made the suggestions I responded to. That would be you.

Um whoa... the only thing I asked you in this thread was to create a new thread so I could guide you through your experiment. These are my only posts in this thread rolleyes.gif
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Methinks you haven't looked very hard wink.gif Welcome to the dark side :P
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Lol. Start a thread - here or there - and I'll help you attempt to "exact the lab results before lighting the candle" smile.gif
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Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

You should really start your own thread instead of hijacking this one...


The rest of your unreasonably angry rant seems to boil down to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

To maintain context, please reread the thread and you'll see my comments were tied directly to the flow of the OP's question....

Actually (since you brought it up) you might want to check out what the OP actually asked in this thread... He doesn't ever mention repairing his sub or ask what would be required. The only one asking questions about that was you to which someone else responded "I see. Thats pretty technical. You should probably start a thread.".

I don't really care that much it just doesn't make sense to have this large conversation about your specific situation in this thread where the guy just wants a recommendation on a cheap subwoofer. Starting a new thread really isn't difficult I assure you. If you'd genuinely like to make an educated attempt at replacing the driver in the sub you mentioned (PR and all) start one up and I'll help if I can.
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