The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread. - Page 12 - AVS Forum
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post #331 of 374 Old 07-22-2014, 10:53 AM
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Mission Impossible 4 Ghost Protocol+Crowson=. It's that simple.

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post #332 of 374 Old 07-22-2014, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post
I live in an apartment, with neighbors to the right, left and under me.
Will something like the Auralex isolation platform work?
I've had my subs on top of the Auralex and liked it but they wouldn't apply in this instance. The mini riser I mentioned would eliminate the only possible offense which was vibrations to the neighbors below while not compromising the performance of Crowson. Otherwise they are unobtrusive and only YOU will feel the tremors.
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post #333 of 374 Old 07-23-2014, 04:04 PM
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vs. Buttkickers

Is there much difference between the Buttkickers and the Crawsons? The BK seems to be a bit cheaper (BKA300 wireless kit is what I'm looking at), but I'm wondering if Crawsons offer something the Buttkicker doesn't.

I've seen a few threads about both but they are very old threads and none that really compare the two with a definitive answer.

I was actually set on buying the BKA300 (it was recommended in a thread about reducing subwoofer output) but since its on backorder started to venture out.

FYI I don't have a couch, I have power recliners.
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post #334 of 374 Old 07-23-2014, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mbuck View Post
Is there much difference between the Buttkickers and the Crawsons? The BK seems to be a bit cheaper (BKA300 wireless kit is what I'm looking at), but I'm wondering if Crawsons offer something the Buttkicker doesn't.

I've seen a few threads about both but they are very old threads and none that really compare the two with a definitive answer.

I was actually set on buying the BKA300 (it was recommended in a thread about reducing subwoofer output) but since its on backorder started to venture out.

FYI I don't have a couch, I have power recliners.
I had the BKA300 at one point and I liked it, great bang for the buck and solid entry into the world of transducers. My main short coming was that it bottomed on deep/demanding material (maybe that could be remedied with a high pass filter) and although not bad, it at times would draw attention to itself with the sound of the internal piston hitting the metal housing and the transient response sometimes felt a tad behind. The Crowson is more expensive but it will handle the lowest frequencies without issue and has spot on transient response, very seamless in operation and will fool you into thinking your subs are doing the deed until you stand up.

I'd still take the BKA 300 over nothing for sure as it adds another dimension and it's fun when things start blowing up. It's just not as articulate as the Crowson nor will it handle the ultra low frequencies with the same authority. Just my opinion hope it helps.
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post #335 of 374 Old 07-23-2014, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post
I had the BKA300 at one point and I liked it, great bang for the buck and solid entry into the world of transducers. My main short coming was that it bottomed on deep/demanding material but maybe that could be remedied with a high pass filter and although not bad, it at times would draw attention to itself. The Crowson is more expensive but it will handle the lowest frequencies without issue and has spot on transient response, very seamless in operation and will fool you into thinking your subs are doing the deed until you stand up.

I'd still take the BKA 300 over nothing for sure as it adds another dimension and it's fun when things start blowing up. It's just not as articulate as the Crowson nor will it handle the ultra low frequencies with the same authority. Just my opinion hope it helps.
I would agree with this statement too.
I have owned 2 Crowson systems and 1 Buttkicker system in my life.
Buttkicker is great if you're on a budget but doesn't approach the accuracy and depth of motion that you will get from the Crowson system.
In this example, you really do get what you pay for.
I heartily recommend saving the extra dollars and investing in the Crowsons - they will last you a lifetime.
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post #336 of 374 Old 07-23-2014, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mimioguy View Post
I would agree with this statement too.
I have owned 2 Crowson systems and 1 Buttkicker system in my life.
Buttkicker is great if you're on a budget but doesn't approach the accuracy and depth of motion that you will get from the Crowson system.
In this example, you really do get what you pay for.
I heartily recommend saving the extra dollars and investing in the Crowsons - they will last you a lifetime.
Very helpful. So with the Crowson, do I need on actuator for each seat, and then one amp to power all 7 (ultimately) of them? And buy them direct or is there a better source?

Seems with the BKA300 I get one for each set of seats though I've been told I could get one and while the one seat would get the most, the others would be pretty great too.
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post #337 of 374 Old 07-24-2014, 04:33 AM
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Very helpful. So with the Crowson, do I need on actuator for each seat, and then one amp to power all 7 (ultimately) of them? And buy them direct or is there a better source?
I currently have three actuators on a three seater and one actuator on a recliner. Previously I've used two actuators on a three seater and everything worked fine.

The construction of your seating can make a difference. My three seater has solid wood frame and transmits the motion well. My single seat recliner has an internal metal spring frame that it sits on and so the motion felt there isn't as intense due to it traveling through three different materials (metal, wood, padding). This is by comparison though and not a bad thing - my three seater gets very, very intense.

I have bought mine direct from Randolph Crowson. Very efficient and helpful service. Always just a phone call away.
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post #338 of 374 Old 07-26-2014, 07:46 PM
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I read about bypassing/disabling Audyssey earlier on this thread when using the Crowsons so I decided to A/B my setup to see what differences there were. I have never had any problems with the depth and range of the motion I've been feeling previously but wanted to check if I was legitimately missing out on frequencies of sound through my Crowsons with the Audyssey circuitry enabled.

After testing I can definitely say that Audyssey technology actually enhances the sensation of motion a little rather than limits or restricts it. Every setup and room is different so I think this definitely points to the fact that people should A/B test their setups to determine what the right mix of options are for them.

Thanks to the original posters that bought this to my attention.

More dramatically, while A/B testing for motion, I also heard the difference between Audyssey being on and off during audio playback. This is not something I've done previously as it's always just been on. The difference in audio quality is startling.
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post #339 of 374 Old 07-27-2014, 11:12 AM
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I hate how there appears to be no standardization with these transducers.

No "T/S" parameters, like we can find on speakers. No real information on the motor tech used (LMT, XBL^2, etc...).

I get the impression that the Crowson is like a pistion moving up and down, where items like the buttkicker and arua have a weight that spins to make the effect.

Why can I not find any pics or CAD drawings of the internals of any of the transducers?

Besides personal feedback from owners (which I appreciate), how can we really objectively break these products down?

Has anyone taken the time to tear one of these guys apart to check out the internals? When I get settled in my new place, I'm going to rip open one of my Aruas and post some pics for everyone.

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post #340 of 374 Old 07-27-2014, 01:50 PM
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"Has anyone taken the time to tear one of these guys apart to check out the internals?"


Here's several cross sections/images from Crowson's patent.


http://www.google.com/patents/US7069787
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post #341 of 374 Old 07-27-2014, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post
"Has anyone taken the time to tear one of these guys apart to check out the internals?"


Here's several cross sections/images from Crowson's patent.


http://www.google.com/patents/US7069787


wish I was smart enough to know what all those diagrams mean and to understand the accompanying text. For those who can understand all this, what are your thoughts on the different operating principles (vs buttkickers, clarks etc.) ?
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post #342 of 374 Old 07-28-2014, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimioguy View Post
More dramatically, while A/B testing for motion, I also heard the difference between Audyssey being on and off during audio playback. This is not something I've done previously as it's always just been on. The difference in audio quality is startling.

So you find with Audyssey on, the audio quality is better?

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post #343 of 374 Old 07-28-2014, 10:30 AM
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So you find with Audyssey on, the audio quality is better?
Definitely.
There are obvious limitations when you don't have a dedicated room geared for home theater. Audyssey seems to help fix these anomalies and make a soundtrack pop aurally - improving the ability to notice separate items sonically in the mix and generally making the sound clearer.
I'm not an audio engineer - so that's as technical as I get.

Something else I learned is that Audyssey Phase Matching Bass adds some punch to your Crowsons too. I'm still evaluating the setting but the difference is noticeable so if you have that feature available it might be worth experimenting with in your space.
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post #344 of 374 Old 07-28-2014, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimioguy View Post
More dramatically, while A/B testing for motion, I also heard the difference between Audyssey being on and off during audio playback. This is not something I've done previously as it's always just been on. The difference in audio quality is startling.
Heard or felt? I've heard some versions of the Clark transducers actually make sound, that is not the case for the Crowson's is it?

I'm assuming you are just splitting the signal from your AVR into your transducer amp and it sounds like audy was attempting to compensate for your sub roll by boosting the lowend a bit.

I'd venture to say that if you had a setup like some of these nuts on here (4 x 18's or something), audy would be cutting the lowend vs. boosting. Make sense?

Nothing to be startled about. If you were to invest in a standalone DSP, you could manipulate your signal where it would REALLY "startle" you.
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post #345 of 374 Old 07-28-2014, 10:56 AM
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I just watched Inception again. I haven't watched it in a while but having the Crowson really made the movie much more involving. I am only using one for one of my Chairs powered by a Butt Kicker BKA-1000N amp. I have never experienced a Butt Kicker transducer so I can't compare. I just know that the Crowson is plenty good for me. Once I had Craig test it on my chair I knew I was getting it.

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post #346 of 374 Old 07-28-2014, 12:48 PM
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Heard or felt? I've heard some versions of the Clark transducers actually make sound, that is not the case for the Crowson's is it?
Heard with my ears. Completely unrelated to my Crowsons.
My old buttkicker used to make sounds of protest when things got intense. I never hear a peep out of my Crowsons but I know they are there.
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post #347 of 374 Old 07-28-2014, 06:51 PM
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Is a Buttkicker BKA-1000 and a pair of Crowsons (plus cables) all you need to integrate these transducers into your HT? I've seen mention of preamps and just want to make sure I'm not missing something.

Also, what's the best way to wire two Crowson transducers with the BKA-1000? I'm assuming parallel but wanted to confirm.
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post #348 of 374 Old 08-03-2014, 12:36 AM
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Anyone know if you can or need to use Crowsons with D-Box?


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post #349 of 374 Old 08-03-2014, 10:12 AM
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D Box moves in various planes while crowsons are just up and down. Movies encoded for D Box tells the chairs which direction to move based on the action up down, side to side, front to back. With only vertical movement you'd miss all that.
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post #350 of 374 Old 08-03-2014, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone know if you can or need to use Crowsons with D-Box?
They're not compatible to work together.

Have you actually experienced D-Box? If you haven't, I strongly suggest you do so ...BEFORE... you make a commitment to D-Box. I really enjoyed the effect of D-Box... for about 5 minutes. It's like a Disneyland ride... lots of forward/back, left/right, up/down motion. It's a fun ride.. for about 5 minutes. Beyond that, I found it to be a major distraction to my experience of the movie. It became the primary focus instead of a device to add to the "suspension of disbelief." In fact, after about 5 minutes, I started to feel slightly nauseous and motion sick. The biggest distraction is that you end up having to move your head to keep your eyes on the screen while your position is constantly being slid around. Thats probably what lead to the motion sick feeling. I couldn't imagine having to experience that every time I wanted to watch a movie. Personally, I would not find that enjoyable. OTOH, if I had spent multi-thousands of $$$ for the D-Box seats, I certainly wouldn't want to turn it off because it made me motion sick.

My Crowson's are so well integrated with my subs that they *increase* the immersiveness, (aka the "suspension of disbelief"), without ever being a distraction. I wouldn't trade my Crowson's for D-Box, even if I could get D-Box for free. I know lots of people love D-Box, and that's great for them. Me... I'll pass. You should make up your own mind... and you should TRY them before you buy them.

Craig

Edit: I also experienced D-Box with a auto racing game chair. Now THAT experience was really cool. You actually "felt" the stiffness of the suspension of the car, and you could feel the cornering forces and the "grade" of the hills. For that application, I could see it being a very beneficial addition to the experience.
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post #351 of 374 Old 08-04-2014, 07:50 AM
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They're not compatible to work together.

Have you actually experienced D-Box? If you haven't, I strongly suggest you do so ...BEFORE... you make a commitment to D-Box. I really enjoyed the effect of D-Box... for about 5 minutes. It's like a Disneyland ride... lots of forward/back, left/right, up/down motion. It's a fun ride.. for about 5 minutes. Beyond that, I found it to be a major distraction to my experience of the movie. It became the primary focus instead of a device to add to the "suspension of disbelief." In fact, after about 5 minutes, I started to feel slightly nauseous and motion sick. The biggest distraction is that you end up having to move your head to keep your eyes on the screen while your position is constantly being slid around. Thats probably what lead to the motion sick feeling. I couldn't imagine having to experience that every time I wanted to watch a movie. Personally, I would not find that enjoyable. OTOH, if I had spent multi-thousands of $$$ for the D-Box seats, I certainly wouldn't want to turn it off because it made me motion sick.

My Crowson's are so well integrated with my subs that they *increase* the immersiveness, (aka the "suspension of disbelief"), without ever being a distraction. I wouldn't trade my Crowson's for D-Box, even if I could get D-Box for free. I know lots of people love D-Box, and that's great for them. Me... I'll pass. You should make up your own mind... and you should TRY them before you buy them.

Craig

Edit: I also experienced D-Box with a auto racing game chair. Now THAT experience was really cool. You actually "felt" the stiffness of the suspension of the car, and you could feel the cornering forces and the "grade" of the hills. For that application, I could see it being a very beneficial addition to the experience.
I saw Godzilla at IMAX the other day, and I loved the experience. I am guessing that D-Box for home is as good or even better as those chairs were not the best. Talking about nauseous, my screen is 14ft wide and sit 10 ft from it, and I sometimes get a little nauseous from Gravity, cloverfield and movies like that. I found that D-Box did not distract me me, but did keep me on the edge of my seat.


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post #352 of 374 Old 08-12-2014, 05:39 PM
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Well, after months of reading and researching all the different kinds of bass "shakers," I have pulled the trigger on Some Crowson Actuators. I ordered three actuators as well as the Crowson 501 Amplifier. I only have a three-seater sofa and a single chair, so three should be enough for now. I'd like to thank Craig John for taking the time to answer all of my questions and a big shout out to Notnyt for his "thoughts" on how his Crowsons contribute to his world class system. As noted several times in this thread, Mr. Randolph Crowson was a pleasure to deal with. He is obviously very knowledgeable and, clearly, very helpful. And, he even gave me a sweet "AVS" discount

I can't wait to receive them and start the process of integrating them into my system.

Cheers
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post #353 of 374 Old 08-13-2014, 04:58 AM
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post #354 of 374 Old 08-29-2014, 06:50 PM
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Well, after months of reading and researching all the different kinds of bass "shakers," I have pulled the trigger on Some Crowson Actuators. I ordered three actuators as well as the Crowson 501 Amplifier. I only have a three-seater sofa and a single chair, so three should be enough for now. I'd like to thank Craig John for taking the time to answer all of my questions and a big shout out to Notnyt for his "thoughts" on how his Crowsons contribute to his world class system. As noted several times in this thread, Mr. Randolph Crowson was a pleasure to deal with. He is obviously very knowledgeable and, clearly, very helpful. And, he even gave me a sweet "AVS" discount

I can't wait to receive them and start the process of integrating them into my system.

Cheers
Well, my Crowsons will be picked up from Buffalo and should be delivered to me on Sunday. I will run Anthem Room Correction and take a look at the graphs to see what kind of boosts/cuts are applied. In the event that there are any unacceptable cuts, I will have to think about getting a Blu ray player with analog outs to ensure an unmolested signal gets to the Crowson Amp. The Oppo is really a large chunk of change just to get those analog outputs so I was wondering if this Bluray player will suffice. http://www.amazon.ca/Samsung-BD-F750...A3B09Q3X7YELPQ

It has 7.1 analog outs but I just want to be sure that the analog and HDMI outs are both active simultaneously.

thanks
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post #355 of 374 Old 09-07-2014, 05:30 PM
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Well, I finally got my Crowson (501D) Amp and (3) Crowson Attenuators all installed and running. At first I had it running through my Anthem (ARC) processing, which was “good” but it still left me wondering what kind of effect the processing had on the impact of the Attenuators. I hated that the Crowson's intensity was directly tied into the master volume control of the Anthem Receiver and that my sub-woofer trim was -6 db. I have never had such deep trims before (usually my sub trim is -1 or -2 at most), so I will have to figure out what went wrong this time. In this configuration, I really felt that I regained the impact lost from having a concrete room with concrete walls. However, to feel that impact I had to turn up the Crowson Amp as well as the Anthem receiver. Not sure if that’s a good thing but it bothered me enough that I went out and bought a blu-ray player with 7.1 analog outs just so I can by-pass the processing of my receiver and be able to control the Crowsons separately. I got this BD player.

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00B...A3B09Q3X7YELPQ

I really wanted the Oppo 103D but (1) I couldn’t afford it and, (2) if I was getting it solely for the analog outs, then a cheaper player similarly equipped will suffice. Anyway, I hooked up the Samsung and used the analog sub out and BAM, everything fell into place. I could now control the Crowsons independent of my receiver and I don’t have to crank either amp to get the impact. With this setup, I am absolutely and completely blown away. In fact, I wish I had done this before (get the crowsons that is, and of course a means to independently control them). I can’t imagine ever going back to just sub-woofers—especially in an all-concrete basement. For those who have Crowsons and are running them through their receivers without some means of bypassing any room correction processing, then you are really missing out on their true level of performance.

My problem now is that I really want to re-watch my entire library of movies just to experience the impact I have been missing in my room. Don’t get me wrong, I have five subs in my room and they really dig deep and tight, bug gawd those Crowsons add a whole other dimension to the experience. Thanks to Craig John for starting this thread, without which I might not have chosen the Crowsons. In all fairness, I haven’t experienced any other “shaker” but I am still glad I went with Crowsons despite their substantially higher price. And thanks to the folks who have also contributed and helped along the way. I am just surprised more people are not on the Crowson bandwagon. As a biased owner, I am not ashamed to say they are worth every penny.
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post #356 of 374 Old 09-07-2014, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I finally got my Crowson (501D) Amp and (3) Crowson Attenuators all installed and running. At first I had it running through my Anthem (ARC) processing, which was “good” but it still left me wondering what kind of effect the processing had on the impact of the Attenuators. I hated that the Crowson's intensity was directly tied into the master volume control of the Anthem Receiver and that my sub-woofer trim was -6 db. I have never had such deep trims before (usually my sub trim is -1 or -2 at most), so I will have to figure out what went wrong this time. In this configuration, I really felt that I regained the impact lost from having a concrete room with concrete walls. However, to feel that impact I had to turn up the Crowson Amp as well as the Anthem receiver. Not sure if that’s a good thing but it bothered me enough that I went out and bought a blu-ray player with 7.1 analog outs just so I can by-pass the processing of my receiver and be able to control the Crowsons separately. I got this BD player.

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00B...A3B09Q3X7YELPQ

I really wanted the Oppo 103D but (1) I couldn’t afford it and, (2) if I was getting it solely for the analog outs, then a cheaper player similarly equipped will suffice. Anyway, I hooked up the Samsung and used the analog sub out and BAM, everything fell into place. I could now control the Crowsons independent of my receiver and I don’t have to crank either amp to get the impact. With this setup, I am absolutely and completely blown away. In fact, I wish I had done this before (get the crowsons that is, and of course a means to independently control them). I can’t imagine ever going back to just sub-woofers—especially in an all-concrete basement. For those who have Crowsons and are running them through their receivers without some means of bypassing any room correction processing, then you are really missing out on their true level of performance.

My problem now is that I really want to re-watch my entire library of movies just to experience the impact I have been missing in my room. Don’t get me wrong, I have five subs in my room and they really dig deep and tight, bug gawd those Crowsons add a whole other dimension to the experience. Thanks to Craig John for starting this thread, without which I might not have chosen the Crowsons. In all fairness, I haven’t experienced any other “shaker” but I am still glad I went with Crowsons despite their substantially higher price. And thanks to the folks who have also contributed and helped along the way. I am just surprised more people are not on the Crowson bandwagon. As a biased owner, I am not ashamed to say they are worth every penny.
Congrats on your successful implementation of the Crowsons!!!

I'm glad the thread was helpful to you! As you've found, RC algorithms are not always useful or beneficial to the output of tactile transducers. In addition, tying the output of the tactile transducers to the MVC is not always the optimal solution. I'm glad you've found ways to circumvent both of these problems.

Please continue to enjoy your system and your Crowson transducers. As you've found, they add a whole different level of immersiveness and integration, especially in rooms that don't inherently provide tactile response on their own, (i.e., concrete floors, basements, etc.)

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."


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post #357 of 374 Old 09-08-2014, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Congrats on your successful implementation of the Crowsons!!!

I'm glad the thread was helpful to you! As you've found, RC algorithms are not always useful or beneficial to the output of tactile transducers. In addition, tying the output of the tactile transducers to the MVC is not always the optimal solution. I'm glad you've found ways to circumvent both of these problems.

Please continue to enjoy your system and your Crowson transducers. As you've found, they add a whole different level of immersiveness and integration, especially in rooms that don't inherently provide tactile response on their own, (i.e., concrete floors, basements, etc.)

Craig
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post #358 of 374 Old 09-08-2014, 01:56 PM
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So where do you guys recommend to go to get the best prices on this stuff?? I'm thinking of trying out a level 2 kit pretty soon.
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post #359 of 374 Old 09-08-2014, 03:00 PM
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You will want to call them and ask them to apply the 10% Powerbuy or 10% AVS discount and they will be able to do so over the phone. I don’t think you can apply this discount yourself on their webpage.


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post #360 of 374 Old 09-08-2014, 04:46 PM
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You will want to call them and ask them to apply the 10% Powerbuy or 10% AVS discount and they will be able to do so over the phone. I don’t think you can apply this discount yourself on their webpage.
Thanks!

So has everyone bought their kits directly from Crowson? I guess I was wondering if perhaps there were some vendors out there offering better pricing.

I'll give my local vendors a call tomorrow and see what they say.

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