The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread. - Page 22 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #631 of 858 Old 04-27-2016, 12:54 PM
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Anybody use these with a three seat couch that has built in electric recliners? I'm worried about the vibrations damaging the motors.
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post #632 of 858 Old 04-27-2016, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Anybody use these with a three seat couch that has built in electric recliners? I'm worried about the vibrations damaging the motors.
All 4 of my chairs have electric recline. The Crowsons haven't damaged them in 5 years of use.

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post #633 of 858 Old 04-27-2016, 01:27 PM
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Anybody use these with a three seat couch that has built in electric recliners? I'm worried about the vibrations damaging the motors.
I have a couch with 4 reclining seats and 4 transducers (one for each seat). I've running this configuration for well over a year. I can't imagine the vibrations being a problem for the reclining mechanism. They just don't seem strong enough compared to the strain of moving the seat itself.

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post #634 of 858 Old 05-20-2016, 11:45 AM
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The Ultimate Four Octave Experience. Thats what I call it. My goal is to have perfect, balanced, response of all three LF/ULF components, Frequency, Pressure, Tactile.

I have all the key components that assist in this area, floated riser multiple sealed subs with kilowatt power and nearfield placement. I have a dedicated, sealed home theater with an Internal volume of 1400 cubic feet. I'm have 3xBehringer EP4k's, 4xDayton HF15's and 8xStereo Integrity HT18 subs in sealed cabs in a front/rear array. I can hit reference or above from 5hz up. Pressurization of the room is very strong. Tactile response is strong to a lesser level. Actually what I mean is below 10hz. Maybe I have unrealistic goals, but I wanted more TR, especially in the 5-10hz octave. What I mean is I want 5-10hz to hit like 20-30hz does. I don't consider myself a basshead, in fact, I resent it. When I hear that term, peaky boomy bass comes to mind. I remember Bassheads from my car audio days when it was subs and tweets only and 40hz was considered ULF. There's plenty of guys here with big systems that are very sophisticated when it comes to what they want out of their LF/ULF systems. For me, from day one, it's was always about finding that perfect balance between SPL and TR(tactile response). I'm running 12 subs for TR not SPL. This became a quest and a very frustrating one. Unrealistic expectations? Maybe.

Then came a series of unfortunate events. First, my nephew comes running in one day all excited showing me this video of the mirror shaking and his truck buzzing as he approached the house from down the street. I acknowledge he got his system hooked and cool. He says "no, no , that's you testing in your room, listen." Sure enough it's EOT. An ”OH NO" hits me. It's been bombs away for six months with Sines and EOT among other things with little thought to what effect it has on my neighbors. I have good neighbors. It don't wanna be the troublemaker so it really hit home and it bothered me. Time passes and I think I'm good, then I see, my neighbors on the theater side, have a newborn. That coupled with comments from my sons friends about feeling an earthquake while visiting were having an effect on me. Seems like my ULF/ULFTR response was better outside my room than inside, despite using the DD+GG+Rockwooll approach. Next, the mother in law moved in. That definitely put a kibosh on things until we get a granny flat built. Lastly was the effect all the high db testing was having on my ears. One bad case of Tinnitus, coupled with all the above and it was time to find a new approach to finding LF/ULF bliss. Do I really have to have playback in the 130db+ range AND subs touching the seat backs to have satisfying TR? There's got to be a better, more efficient way.

So, once again, I turned to Tactile Transducers, to explore that option, hoping to find an equitable solution. I attempted to roundup a few different TT's for comparison. This has been done many many times before but the plan was to use objective testing(vibsensor) this time. I have the Aura Pro TT's and would purchase the Buttkicker LFE and Crowson Shadow 8 for this eval. That didn't work out. I couldn't find the BK's anywhere but on eBay. So I just decided on purchases the Crowson MA's. Crowson has a great return policy if they didn't work for me. These MAs will never leave my room. In fact, I will be adding more. I'm pretty confident in saying for the first time in a long, long time, I'm satisfied with my system. Yes there's plenty of eye candy I can add to my room as it's built more for business/performance. But from a ULF performance POV, I'm satisfied with my ULF frequency, pressure and tactile response. I now have true Infrasonic response that I'm content with. To the testing.

I used individual sines from 1-20hz to check out performance in the ULF band specifically the 5-15hz region. These things took a beating and gave one in return. Using a Behringer EP4K with one MA’s per channel, the 8ohm load receives 450wrms. These tracks far exceed any real world bluray in duration and ULF content. It's very cool feeling the direct coupled response versus acoustic coupling. While I can hit above reference @5hz, it's @6hz(123db with 10sec sines)and above that I start to feel it. With the MA's though, you feel everything with far greater intensity and dynamics. I want to see just how low I could feel the effects. The effect was strong at 5hz. 4hz was less intense though still strong. I could feel 3hz as well even with roll off 3hz felt about to what I got@6hz with acoustic coupling of my 18's less than 2 inches from the seat back. It's in that 1-10hz region where the MA's excel compared to my 18's. Actually theres no comparison TR-wise. Running both a 5hz and 6hz 10sec sines consecutively, yielded a peak over the first two seconds of .3-.4gs, and thats with a -20db test signal which can be turned up, but in my experience is never the same. Preamp voltage is what it is. You need it to drive the load. So their able to handle long, sustained bursts with great displacement is remarkable. Nothing's wasted. Testing the differences of having the MA’s placed on carpet then a sheet of plywood demonstrated the need to be placed on a hard surface. Carpet backed measured .15g. On plywood su flooring over carpet it measured .17g. I figure that directly on my riser floor would improve that more and concrete still more. I also believe there would be a bigger gap at increased levels. Motion actuators are one device that works better with hard media/floors/platforms above and below, just the opposite of typical shakers. I've constructed my riser like a standard subfloor, with the addition of decoupling rubber between the bottom and concrete slab, or floated as I call it. It's rigid, so an actuator should provide a better solution. Another asset in favor of MA’s was the ability to integrate seamlessly. With or without eq, time alignment or gain matching, they work great. It's even better with proper adjustment. When it's set there's no fidgeting. Even when cranked they remain quick and tight and extremely dynamic. Amazing agility for the weight and slam being produced.

I moved on to watching/experiencing movie clips using 4 ULF juggernauts, HTTYD, TIH, ST and WOTW. These LFE tracks can get very complex in design, the micro dynamics of multiple tracks and layers combined I never really think of these aspects coming into play with LF/ULF content. I guess it could but If you run hot 6, 10, 15db or more, resolution of any detailed textures or layers will surely be masked, right? The first demo was HTTYD-Final Battle. The demo was very different than the other hundred plus times I've played it. You feel individual pockets of the billowing explosion. Then, as it peaks, with the Alpha Dragon exploding, I get two powerful, very distinct ULF waves, something I've never felt before. I play it back several more times just to check. It's there each time. I'm guessing 3-4hz, as it's a slow wave. My go to reference for these demo's, @maxmercy states on the DB site that there's a 2hz@117db goodie thrown in. That's remarkable. Micro dynamics I've never felt before. Likewise with WOTW. I learned the hard way just how insane this effects track is. I still suffer PTSD from that experience and it's one of the few soundtracks I test with my hand on the volume. All of the scenes here, Lightening Strike, Pod Emergence, Weapon Discharge, Overpass/Getaway and on and on are extremely well crafted. This is one of the Alpha Dogs of ULF soundtracks. I guess a prerequisite of making a great ULF experience is being named Randy. You think that's what Austin Powers meant? The Raygun was more visceral than ever before, the sound now reminding me of arc-welding crackle. Hard hitting midbass reminiscent of a good MBM that's all the rage these days, a byproduct of flat extended response from using pressure and tactile response from the direct mechanical coupling, but with wide deep bandwidth. The speed, quickness and agility of the MA's were highlighted with Star Trek and Hulk. The Warp Jump was further heightened from what was already incredible dynamics. Its was sharper and snappier. TIH was just ridiculous. The dynamic swing of the .50 cal, sonic guns and final battle, was just stupid. I finely, truly get and now experience ULFTR that's on these soundtracks, one that matches my pressure response. The best way to describe it is it's like going over whoopdeedoo's in a roller coaster, automobile or bike. Or being in a small boat going over choppy waves. I was experiencing weightlessness. I do experience weightlessness, in a chair, sitting on the ground. There's a strong rapid mechanically coupled positive/negative G's pull.Thats the key difference between this actuator and other TT’s and drivers. The mechanical coupling of the actuator accelerates the body. Remarkable. I’ll watch and breakdown each of these movies in detail with VS data. I’ve found some interesting things random testing the above mentioned TIH clips.

Now to get back on track. We have FR, or Frequency Response, PR, Pressure Response and TR, Tactile Response. In the ULF thread, @dominguez1 calls attention to the pressure component of the ULF whole. A sub has an all three of these component, to varying degrees, primarily due to its surroundings and placement. Transducer only have one, Tactile. I guess you could say and measure an FR because of vibrational noise which can be measured, but really there just one component. On a scale of 1-10 I'd say my FR is 10. FR is flat and extended and above reference level at all freqs. My PR feels like my FR measures. My TR on the other hand, is good to about 14hz or so. Even moving subs to all nearfield with four within inches of the seats was underwhelming. I have good tactile response at 10hz but it's nowhere near what I have with 15hz and 20hz TR. I didn't have the weight I think it should have had. This was based on a hunch as I didn't know what it should feel like. Now that I'm have the MA's Now I know. It's everything I was hoping it could be. It's a truly incredible experience. I now have achieved a reference balance of FR, PR AND TR and the ability to adjust these independently. Now the fun starts, the testing, the fine tuning, the component comparisons but mostly enjoying the LF/ULF experience with friends and family. We can't forget that.
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post #635 of 858 Old 05-20-2016, 08:12 PM
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I don't praise these things and tell people to get em for no reason Bothering the neighbors less is also a huge bonus.
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post #636 of 858 Old 05-22-2016, 09:09 AM
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Hi guys,

Im using a Mede8er x1000 media player....I hardly ever use my Oppo anymore as every bluray I have is now stored digitally on my NAS. Is there a way to hook up the Crowsons so they go up in Tactile Feedback with the increase of the MV without Audyssey playing with the signal?...............like how u guys have it set in the Oppo's?

Im using an Integra DHC 80.3 and have 4 Submersives going into a Mini DSP 2x4 Balanced Im using both balanced sub outputs on the Integra.

I want to make sure it all works the way I need it to before I plunge my money lol.
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post #637 of 858 Old 05-22-2016, 11:02 AM
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Hi guys,

Im using a Mede8er x1000 media player....I hardly ever use my Oppo anymore as every bluray I have is now stored digitally on my NAS. Is there a way to hook up the Crowsons so they go up in Tactile Feedback with the increase of the MV without Audyssey playing with the signal?...............like how u guys have it set in the Oppo's?

Im using an Integra DHC 80.3 and have 4 Submersives going into a Mini DSP 2x4 Balanced Im using both balanced sub outputs on the Integra.

I want to make sure it all works the way I need it to before I plunge my money lol.
Yes there's a way. I'll post the process I use later.
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post #638 of 858 Old 05-22-2016, 06:42 PM
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Yes there's a way. I'll post the process I use later.
Thanks, coolrda!

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post #639 of 858 Old 05-22-2016, 08:48 PM
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How to setup Crowson MA's using Audyssey SubEQ and MiniDSP.

The goals are to use the second subwoofer to provide a flat unaltered(no EQ) channel that's needed to drive the MA's, to allow main volume to control the complete subwoofer/TT system and separate volume control of subwoofer 1(all subwoofers)and subwoofer 2(tactile motion actuators)to further fine tune to reference level or personal choice.

Gear needed.
Pre/Pro or Receiver with Audyssey XT32 with SUBEQ, MiniDSP 2x4 Bal with 2.1 Way Crossover Advanced plugin, Omnimic/REW measurement system,Two or more subwoofers and Crowson MA's.

I'm using Marantz 7702mk2, MiniDSP 2x4 Bal, Omnimic, 4x Subs front array, 4x Subs rear array, 4x MA's.

This setups purpose is to turn on both sub channels and eliminate Audyssey from EQing the sub channels or have a very minimal touch so to have flat FR of subs and an uneq'd MA channel available. Second is to eliminate the delay settings guesswork. All .1 components will have same signal path. Together this will provide seamless integration of .1 components as all equalizing and delay settings are auto set with main volume control.

First, plug closest sub/s into ch1 and furthest sub/s into ch 2 of the Minidsp. Set Minidsp from mono to stereo. Zero or bypass all function, xover, eq, delays, etc. Run Audyssey, 3 positions only. Make note of sub1 and 2 distance settings. Then turn Audyssey Eq off. Next, take Omnimic FR from the MLP. Save that FR and then load it. Click average curve, then auto equalize from 5-70hz then save this biquad file. Load this Biquad Eq file to the Minidsp, making sure its applied to ch 1 and 2. Record Omnimic FR. Next, rerun Audyssey, 3 positions is fine. Record an Omnimic FR and compare to one taking after Minidsp biquads were loaded. Should be a minimal difference if any. If there's a big difference start over. There may be a small change to the distance so write down the new numbers. Next unplug sub from ch 2 of MiniDSP and plug into ch 3. Next using a ms(milliseconds) to distance calculator, figure out the distance difference in ms and load to delay of ch 1(minidsp). An alternate way is to view your latest FR in Omnimic and change delay until it overlays perfectly. Next, in Audyssey, change Sub 1's distance to match Sub 2's you last wrote down. Sub 1(Audyssey)should now display distance to furthest sub. You've now achieved proper delay of each sub as set by Audyssey. Now change Sub 2's(Audyssey) distance to zero and now the subs and MA's are time aligned. Next plug MA's amp into ch 2 on Minidsp. Lastly, unequalize ch 2 on the Minidsp by bypassing each Biquad. You should see a flatline. Your done and you have one properly set up .1 system with main volume control and separate gain control over subs and MA's as needed.

Last edited by coolrda; 08-28-2016 at 04:00 PM.
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post #640 of 858 Old 05-22-2016, 10:07 PM
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Wow thanks man!.... A lot of to do.... But as long as I can get it working in my setup. This Should be bookmarked somehow in this thread! thanks again!

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post #641 of 858 Old 05-23-2016, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
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This Should be bookmarked somehow in this thread!
I put a link to this procedure in the first post. Thanks coolrda for posting it.

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post #642 of 858 Old 05-23-2016, 06:20 AM
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Thanks Craig. I'm looking forward to getting some Crowsons too and have read ur review over and over... I also experienced Mintys crowsons a year ago and they blew me away.

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post #643 of 858 Old 05-23-2016, 12:59 PM
 
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How to setup Crowson MA's using Audyssey SubEQ and MiniDSP.

The goals are to use the second subwoofer to provide a flat unaltered(no EQ) channel that's needed to drive the MA's, to allow main volume to control the complete subwoofer/TT system and separate volume control of subwoofer 1(all subwoofers)and subwoofer 2(tactile motion actuators)to further fine tune to reference level or personal choice.
Thx for the detail. This got me thinking if my setup is correct??? I don't use Audyssey. I use Dirac which comes in chain after AVR. So basically, all the preouts from avr goes to Dirac device including sub channel.

my avr has 2 outputs for subs. I use one output that goes into Dirac and other that goes to MA. Since AVR has no correction applied, the output that is going into MA is a unaltered(no EQ) channel but its not 100% flat thought. Also, I don't have any delay set on it thought it should be fairly easy to do so.

After reading your post, its seems like I need to set the delay for the channel that is feeding MA but I'm a bit confused about flat response. Does the response need to be flat as well?
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post #644 of 858 Old 05-23-2016, 02:26 PM
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Thx for the detail. This got me thinking if my setup is correct??? I don't use Audyssey. I use Dirac which comes in chain after AVR. So basically, all the preouts from avr goes to Dirac device including sub channel.

my avr has 2 outputs for subs. I use one output that goes into Dirac and other that goes to MA. Since AVR has no correction applied, the output that is going into MA is a unaltered(no EQ) channel but its not 100% flat thought. Also, I don't have any delay set on it thought it should be fairly easy to do so.

After reading your post, its seems like I need to set the delay for the channel that is feeding MA but I'm a bit confused about flat response. Does the response need to be flat as well?
If your not using your AVR's EQ or RC your good. Now you just have to focus on the delay. Since a distance of zero feet is zero delay in the AVR, you need to make up the difference in your Dirac processor. Use a LF click track or something like Omnimic test cd trk 2.
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If your not using your AVR's EQ or RC your good. Now you just have to focus on the delay. Since a distance of zero feet is zero delay in the AVR, you need to make up the difference in your Dirac processor. Use a LF click track or something like Omnimic test cd trk 2.
Thx. I use REW. What should the delay be set to match? Dirac sets its own delay. After Dirac calibration, when I run AVR room correction (just so that it can measure the distance for ceiling speakers since they are not being calibrated by Dirac), my subs/LCR and all the channels driven by Dirac comes to 26 Ft. So I'm assuming I should set the same delay for Sub 2 line that is driving MA? Also, I added 3 feet to Sub distance to tweak the crossover region b/w subs and main and therefore now the distance of subs is 29Ft while the distance of Mains is 26. I think this means that I should be setting 2nd Sub Channel to a distance of 29Ft to be precise?
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post #646 of 858 Old 05-23-2016, 04:14 PM
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Thx. I use REW. What should the delay be set to match? Dirac sets its own delay. After Dirac calibration, when I run AVR room correction (just so that it can measure the distance for ceiling speakers since they are not being calibrated by Dirac), my subs/LCR and all the channels driven by Dirac comes to 26 Ft. So I'm assuming I should set the same delay for Sub 2 line that is driving MA? Also, I added 3 feet to Sub distance to tweak the crossover region b/w subs and main and therefore now the distance of subs is 29Ft while the distance of Mains is 26. I think this means that I should be setting 2nd Sub Channel to a distance of 29Ft to be precise?
I'm not sure I understand your footage of delay. Is Dirac setting each channel to 26ft or are you adding each channel footage. You don't want that. The farthest sub has the least amount of electronic delay. Here's my method that will take the guess work out. Zero bypass all dsp in the Dirac. Using two exact subs exactly equal distances plug one into AVR like you do now and other in unaltered Dirac. Run AVR's auto setup. The distance difference BETWEEN the AVR direct sub vs the AVR/Dirac sub is your delay. The AVR's footage to sub should be closer, maybe much closer than the sub plugged into the Dirac processor.
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post #647 of 858 Old 05-23-2016, 05:29 PM
 
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I'm not sure I understand your footage of delay. Is Dirac setting each channel to 26ft or are you adding each channel footage. You don't want that. The farthest sub has the least amount of electronic delay. Here's my method that will take the guess work out. Zero bypass all dsp in the Dirac. Using two exact subs exactly equal distances plug one into AVR like you do now and other in unaltered Dirac. Run AVR's auto setup. The distance difference BETWEEN the AVR direct sub vs the AVR/Dirac sub is your delay. The AVR's footage to sub should be closer, maybe much closer than the sub plugged into the Dirac processor.
I don't add the distance on All channels. Dirac in audio chain is after avr. When system is calibrated with Dirac, it sets the delay appropriately. In other words, the distance for all the channels in avr is set to 0 since dirac sets the delay.
So What r we trying to achieve here? Are we trying to make sure that MA shakes exactly when sub sound reaches to MLP So that it shakes exactly when we hear the low frequency? If yes, then simplest way I can think of to calculate the delay for MA is to place a sub at MLP and connect it directly with avr only (no pre out to dirac) and run 1 point calibration. This will set the distance on the sub that appropriately. Agreed?
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post #648 of 858 Old 05-23-2016, 06:35 PM
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I don't add the distance on All channels. Dirac in audio chain is after avr. When system is calibrated with Dirac, it sets the delay appropriately. In other words, the distance for all the channels in avr is set to 0 since dirac sets the delay.
So What r we trying to achieve here? Are we trying to make sure that MA shakes exactly when sub sound reaches to MLP So that it shakes exactly when we hear the low frequency? If yes, then simplest way I can think of to calculate the delay for MA is to place a sub at MLP and connect it directly with avr only (no pre out to dirac) and run 1 point calibration. This will set the distance on the sub that appropriately. Agreed?
I think of it as tactile distortion when there not time aligned properly. I think that the lack of sync between sub and MA is just as bad as MA's gain being set to high. IT smears the TR and cost you peak amplitude. As far as MA goes they should be set for zero distance making it the last component firing. You can only delay the signal you can't advance it. That makes the closest speaker the most delayed. You need your sub at its position and working through the Dirac so AVR can take into account the Dirac natural processing function delay. So if the subs shows 26ft, what's the physical distance by tape measure?
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post #649 of 858 Old 05-23-2016, 07:28 PM
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Delay settings are all relative.

It is not a requirement at all to "set for zero distance". If the output for the TT is it's own then it doesn't matter what number it is as the delay amount is dependent on all the other speaker outputs. It doesn't have to be 'zero' it just has to be the lowest distance relative to the rest.
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post #650 of 858 Old 05-23-2016, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
When system is calibrated with Dirac, it sets the delay appropriately. In other words, the distance for all the channels in avr is set to 0 since dirac sets the delay.
Oops, I missed this and that completely changes the equation as my above method takes into account all processor internal processing delays no matter how many processors are used. My above method works if you use your AVR to set distances. You could try using your AVR to set levels and distances then shutoff RC only off after autocal is complete and use Dirac for RC only. Then use your Dirac to set distances and if they're all the same you can bypass that in the Dirac.
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post #651 of 858 Old 05-23-2016, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Delay settings are all relative.

It is not a requirement at all to "set for zero distance". If the output for the TT is it's own then it doesn't matter what number it is as the delay amount is dependent on all the other speaker outputs. It doesn't have to be 'zero' it just has to be the lowest distance relative to the rest.
Let me clarify. It is a requirement ONLY in the above calibration method. This will give you perfect tactile alignment of all subs with the Crowson MA's. Using this method the proper distance for the MA is zero as all electronic processor delay is accounted for. The MA has zero mechanical and electronic delay, therefore zero delay or zero distance. Which actually means its signal is delayed the most, ugh:roll eyes:. I'm not saying that changing the distances a few feet will be noticeable. It may not be, but following the above method will give you perfect tactile alignment according to the ability of your Pre/Pro or AVR. You certainly can increase the distances of the TT's as long as all subs are adjusted the same. This can be done to help peaks and null at main/sub crossover. Then again anyone can set their system however they want. Technically I'm delaying four subs with each Minidsp channel and they're more than a few feet apart so even thats an average. I'll use the term best instead of perfect tactile alignment until each has they're own delay.
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post #652 of 858 Old 05-26-2016, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
How to setup Crowson MA's using Audyssey SubEQ and MiniDSP.

The goals are to use the second subwoofer to provide a flat unaltered(no EQ) channel that's needed to drive the MA's, to allow main volume to control the complete subwoofer/TT system and separate volume control of subwoofer 1(all subwoofers)and subwoofer 2(tactile motion actuators)to further fine tune to reference level or personal choice.

Gear needed.
Pre/Pro or Receiver with Audyssey XT32 with SUBEQ, MiniDSP 2x4 Bal with 2.1 Way Crossover Advanced plugin, Omnimic/REW measurement system,Two or more subwoofers and Crowson MA's.

I'm using Marantz 7702mk2, MiniDSP 2x4 Bal, Omnimic, 4x Subs front array, 4x Subs rear array, 2x MA's.

This setups purpose is to turn on both sub channels and eliminate Audyssey from EQing the sub channels or have a very minimal touch so to have flat FR of subs and an uneq'd MA channel available. Second is to eliminate the delay settings guesswork. All .1 components will have same signal path. Together this will provide seamless integration of .1 components as all equalizing and delay settings are auto set with main volume control.

First, plug closest sub/s into ch1 and furthest sub/s into ch 2 of the Minidsp. Set Minidsp from mono to stereo. Zero or bypass all function, xover, eq, delays, etc. Run Audyssey, 3 positions only. Make note of sub1 and 2 distance settings. Then turn Audyssey Eq off. Next, take Omnimic FR from the MLP. Save that FR and then load it. Click average curve, then auto equalize from 5-70hz then save this biquad file. Load this Biquad Eq file to the Minidsp, making sure its applied to ch 1 and 2. Record Omnimic FR. Next, rerun Audyssey, 3 positions is fine. Record an Omnimic FR and compare to one taking after Minidsp biquads were loaded. Should be a minimal difference if any. If there's a big difference start over. There may be a small change to the distance so write down the new numbers. Next unplug sub from ch 2 of MiniDSP and plug into ch 3. Next using a ms(milliseconds) to distance calculator, figure out the distance difference in ms and load to delay of ch 1(minidsp). An alternate way is to view your latest FR in Omnimic and change delay until it overlays perfectly. Next, in Audyssey, change Sub 1's distance to match Sub 2's you last wrote down. Sub 1(Audyssey)should now display distance to furthest sub. You've now achieved proper delay of each sub as set by Audyssey. Now change Sub 2's(Audyssey) distance to zero and now the subs and MA's are time aligned. Next plug MA's amp into ch 2 on Minidsp. Lastly, unequalize ch 2 on the Minidsp by bypassing each Biquad. You should see a flatline. Your done and you have one properly set up .1 system with main volume control and separate gain control over subs and MA's as needed.
I'm slightly confused...does this all mean that in the end you are running your system with Audyssey OFF while EQ'ing the sub(s) only with the MiniDSP?
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post #653 of 858 Old 05-26-2016, 05:56 PM
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I'm slightly confused...does this all mean that in the end you are running your system with Audyssey OFF while EQ'ing the sub(s) only with the MiniDSP?
No because I need Audyssey for the mains. By "pre -eqing" the subs with the Minidsp I have a flat FR to the sub channels. Then during autocal Audyssey eq'd all channels but leaves the sub channels untouched. So I'm using Audyssey to handle all autocal functions. It's set to Reference, not Off.
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post #654 of 858 Old 05-27-2016, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
No because I need Audyssey for the mains. By "pre -eqing" the subs with the Minidsp I have a flat FR to the sub channels. Then during autocal Audyssey eq'd all channels but leaves the sub channels untouched. So I'm using Audyssey to handle all autocal functions. It's set to Reference, not Off.
Sorry if I'm being thick, but why not just split the signal to one of the subs to feed the MAs (bypassing the MiniDSP entirely)? Wouldn't that accomplish the same thing (Audyssey EQ'ed flat signal going to MAs)??

In my setup I have 4 subs and XT32. I have the front two subs on Sub Out 1 and the back two subs on Sub Out 2. Couldn't I just take the cable that is feeding one of the rear subs, y-split it, and run a single cable to the MAs amp?

Oh wait, I think I finally get it!! Using the MiniDSP is so you can control the level of the MAs independently, right (with one of the AVR's Sub Outs)?? But...couldn't you also do that with the controls on the MA amp?

To be completely honest, I just recently became interested in the Crowson's and have not read the entire thread.
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post #655 of 858 Old 05-27-2016, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Sorry if I'm being thick, but why not just split the signal to one of the subs to feed the MAs (bypassing the MiniDSP entirely)? Wouldn't that accomplish the same thing (Audyssey EQ'ed flat signal going to MAs)??

In my setup I have 4 subs and XT32. I have the front two subs on Sub Out 1 and the back two subs on Sub Out 2. Couldn't I just take the cable that is feeding one of the rear subs, y-split it, and run a single cable to the MAs amp?

Oh wait, I think I finally get it!! Using the MiniDSP is so you can control the level of the MAs independently, right (with one of the AVR's Sub Outs)?? But...couldn't you also do that with the controls on the MA amp?

To be completely honest, I just recently became interested in the Crowson's and have not read the entire thread.
Yes to all the above would be fine except you would lose the auto cal of the distance/delay feature. Doing it this way assures all components have same sigpath and I don't have to guess if my Minidsp has 1ms or 10ms of processing delays. I will have proper time alignment. As you know even small delays change FR, so now peaks and nulls are introduced as well as smearing of tactile response and it can quickly get away from you. I'd rather Audyssey do its thing and auto calculate and calibrate for me.

Last edited by coolrda; 05-27-2016 at 12:56 PM.
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
Yes to all the above would be fine except you would lose the auto cal of the distance/delay feature. Doing it this way assures all components have same sigpath and I don't have to guess if my Minidsp has 1ms or 10ms of processing delays. I will have proper time alignment. As you know even small delays change FR, so now peaks and nulls are introduced as well as smearing of tactile response and it can quickly get away from you. I'd rather Audyssey and do its thing and auto calculate and calibrate for me.
It finally clicked after reading that....I get it now. Thanks!
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post #657 of 858 Old 05-27-2016, 04:44 PM
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So, in order for me to get me some MA love, I've got a couple questions about trying to save some $$$ on yet another HT purchase (I've been busy lately ):

These will only be going under one recliner (mine ), how many do I really need? Can I get away with one, or is two required?

Do I have to use the amp that Crowson sells, or can I get away with something cheaper without giving up any options/performance?
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post #658 of 858 Old 05-27-2016, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
So, in order for me to get me some MA love, I've got a couple questions about trying to save some $$$ on yet another HT purchase (I've been busy lately ):

These will only be going under one recliner (mine ), how many do I really need? Can I get away with one, or is two required?

Do I have to use the amp that Crowson sells, or can I get away with something cheaper without giving up any options/performance?
I'll measure that this weekend. These are real powerful so ones enough, BUT, it will localize to that side of the chair. So I would mount in the middle back of the chair. You could put a 2x6 across your chair bottom to span the gap. In that case make sure to order four rubber feet with the Crowson.

As far as amps go. Any good home stereo amp like Emotiva Parasound and the like is a great option. Likewise with the inuke and others. Here's the thing though make sure its good to 5hz +-3db. My EP4k is strong to 5hz through independent tests run here. Probably the most popular amp used today the bk1000 was down 12db@5hz. Now I'm not saying don't use that as it tested 780 and 1100watts into 8 and 4 ohm(all tests done by same individual), but I don't want to pay the price for a 1hz MA then compromise its performance in the sigchain. I bought this specifically for the 1-10hz. Your gonna love it.

Last edited by coolrda; 05-28-2016 at 11:48 AM.
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post #659 of 858 Old 05-31-2016, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
I'll measure that this weekend. These are real powerful so ones enough, BUT, it will localize to that side of the chair. So I would mount in the middle back of the chair. You could put a 2x6 across your chair bottom to span the gap. In that case make sure to order four rubber feet with the Crowson.

As far as amps go. Any good home stereo amp like Emotiva Parasound and the like is a great option. Likewise with the inuke and others. Here's the thing though make sure its good to 5hz +-3db. My EP4k is strong to 5hz through independent tests run here. Probably the most popular amp used today the bk1000 was down 12db@5hz. Now I'm not saying don't use that as it tested 780 and 1100watts into 8 and 4 ohm(all tests done by same individual), but I don't want to pay the price for a 1hz MA then compromise its performance in the sigchain. I bought this specifically for the 1-10hz. Your gonna love it.
Cool. My chair already has a crossbar that spans the 2 back feet, so that should work great!

Is this the amp you have? Does Behringer have a comparable single channel amp that would save me even more money??
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post #660 of 858 Old 05-31-2016, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Cool. My chair already has a crossbar that spans the 2 back feet, so that should work great!

Is this the amp you have? Does Behringer have a comparable single channel amp that would save me even more money??
That's the amp. There's a EP2000. Price difference is minimal. The fan is noisy but you can change it for around $20 more shipped. It's an easy mod.
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