LFE or LFE+Main for my setup - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello all, ran audyssey and am trying to tweak my bass settings to get a little more and make it less muddy.

Equipment:

Denon 1612
Jamo S426HS3 set with front towers
Dayton Audio SUB-1000 10" sub

Should I set my settings to LFE or LFE+Main? Also what frequencies would you recommend everything at? Also should my front towers be set to large or small?
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post #2 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 08:03 AM
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Run Audyssey, then set all speakers to "small". Since the FR specs in the owner's manual are not qualified with a +/-ndB variance, assume the true extension figures to be higher than the ones stated (48Hz for the mains, 90Hz for the CC and surrounds), and adjust the crossover settings as follows:
- mains: 80Hz
- CC and surrounds: 120Hz

You can also experiment with different crossover settings, and go with the ones that sound best to you.
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post #3 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Great thanks for the advice! And how about the LFE or LFE+mains? From what I understand if I choose the LFE+mains the subwoofer will also help with any bass sent to the mains? So should I choose that? ALso, should I let the subwoofer frequency go all the way up to 120HZ? I want my subwoofer to be able to help with the punch bass such as gunshots, I felt like testing last night the gunshots weren't quite what I wanted them to be but the low end carrier bass such as thunder were great.
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post #4 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshgfeller View Post

Great thanks for the advice! And how about the LFE or LFE+mains? From what I understand if I choose the LFE+mains the subwoofer will also help with any bass sent to the mains? So should I choose that? I want my subwoofer to be able to help with the punch bass such as gunshots, I felt like testing last night the gunshots weren't quite what I wanted them to be but the low end carrier bass such as thunder were great.

LFE + Main will only take effect if your speakers are set to large. With that setting, your speakers will receive a full range signal, and the subwoofer will get the same signal it would get if the speakers were set to small.

This 'double bass' is enjoyable to some, overbearing to others, and potentially subject to a few interference problems depending on the physical position of your sub and speakers as well as the sub's phase setting. The general recommendation seems to be not to use it.

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post #5 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshgfeller View Post

Great thanks for the advice! And how about the LFE or LFE+mains? From what I understand if I choose the LFE+mains the subwoofer will also help with any bass sent to the mains? So should I choose that? ALso, should I let the subwoofer frequency go all the way up to 120HZ? I want my subwoofer to be able to help with the punch bass such as gunshots, I felt like testing last night the gunshots weren't quite what I wanted them to be but the low end carrier bass such as thunder were great.

LFE is the way to start, not LFE+mains. Your sub will handle the LFE far better than your mains and you will minimize the risk of phase cancellation issues.

Nothing wrong with experimenting with the crossover, but you may find that setting it over 80hz makes your subwoofer localizable.
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post #6 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

LFE + Main will only take effect if your speakers are set to large. With that setting, your speakers will receive a full range signal, and the subwoofer will get the same signal it would get if the speakers were set to small.

This 'double bass' is enjoyable to some, overbearing to others, and potentially subject to a few interference problems depending on the physical position of your sub and speakers as well as the sub's phase setting. The general recommendation seems to be not to use it.


+1


Ian

The best way to succeed in life is to act on the advice you give to others

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post #7 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshgfeller View Post

Great thanks for the advice! And how about the LFE or LFE+mains? From what I understand if I choose the LFE+mains the subwoofer will also help with any bass sent to the mains? So should I choose that? ALso, should I let the subwoofer frequency go all the way up to 120HZ? I want my subwoofer to be able to help with the punch bass such as gunshots, I felt like testing last night the gunshots weren't quite what I wanted them to be but the low end carrier bass such as thunder were great.

Just choose LFE. Not LFE+mains. Like eljay said try different crossover points to what sounds best to you.

 

Nevermind. I'm late to the party again.


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post #8 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

LFE + Main will only take effect if your speakers are set to large. With that setting, your speakers will receive a full range signal, and the subwoofer will get the same signal it would get if the speakers were set to small.

This 'double bass' is enjoyable to some, overbearing to others, and potentially subject to a few interference problems depending on the physical position of your sub and speakers as well as the sub's phase setting. The general recommendation seems to be not to use it.

Another potential issue with LFE+Main is that assuming the sub goes deeper, flatter than the mains, when the mains stop contributing the sub will be 3 to 6 dB lower in teh remaining bass frequencies. So you can either have the midbass too loud and the lower bass correct (this is where autosetup will leave you), or the mid bass correct and the low bass constricted. Audyssey does not fix because it is not implemented to allow it to test main plus sub. It'll set the sub flat, and when you add the mains, something won't be right.
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post #9 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 08:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

...assuming the sub goes deeper, flatter than the mains, when the mains stop contributing the sub will be 3 to 6 dB lower in teh remaining bass frequencies.

Excellent point. Didn't know that as in our case, Audyssey is all over the map with how our speakers are set up and sets our speakers to large. I'm sure I'm the only one who doesn't know this. tongue.gif

(Mains were set to large. All speakers are now set to small and crossovers are all set to 60Hz so as to not lose any directional content.)

-
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post #10 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Excellent point. Didn't know that as in our case, Audyssey is all over the map and sets our speakers to large. I'm sure I'm the only one who doesn't know this. tongue.gif

Audyssey doesn't set speaker size, the AVR does and reports it to Audyssey.
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post #11 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

For probably the millionth time on AVS: Audyssey doesn't set speaker size, the AVR does and reports it to Audyssey.

My understanding:

Audyssey determines -3dB cutoff point

Audyssey reports cutoff point to AVR

AVR sets 'large' or 'small' based on the manufacturer's fool notions of what the cutoff point means

User has to set size to 'small' manually if the AVR was silly enough to decide that it can provide sub-80ish Hz signals more effectively than a dedicated subwoofer amplifier can do.

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post #12 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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All great info guys. Thanks for the help I am going to re-run audyssey tonight with my sub gain set at 3/4, my sub am set at 120HZ crossover. Then I will set the fronts to small, set the sub to LFE, and adjust the frequencies a little bit and hopefully I will be good to go.
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post #13 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 09:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by XStanleyX View Post

Just choose LFE. Not LFE+mains. Like eljay said try different crossover points to what sounds best to you.

When I set things up as you suggest in your above, I find the front channels become thin in sound quality as the bass is no longer shared.

I do have to acknowledge that I become the problem in that many times we listen to the television with the subs turned off because we don't have an auto on feature and for regular TV viewing, it's not worth getting up to turn the subs on.

-
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post #14 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 10:01 AM
 
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dbl post
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post #15 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

When I set things up as you suggest in your above, I find the front channels become thin in sound quality as the bass is no longer shared.

I do have to acknowledge that I become the problem in that many times we listen to the television with the subs turned off.

-

If you turn off your sub(s), that's the time to set your mains to "large" so that they receive the full frequency range. I believe that some AVRs support doing this automatically when two channel modes are selected.

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Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

If you turn off your sub(s), that's the time to set your mains to "large" so that they receive the full frequency range. I believe that some AVRs support doing this automatically when two channel modes are selected.

Thanks for the above suggestion. I'm the problem as we usually listen to television cable provided content in Dolby Digital format. Having the auto on feature will go a long way in fixing the complications my laziness causes. tongue.gif
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post #17 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 11:26 AM
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As I understand it, Audyssey applies correction to each speaker, including the sub, essentially from the measured low frequency -3 dB point fo the measured upper frequency -3 dB point. Period. With the possible exception of Pro, Audyssey does not re-assign filters based on the selected crossover points. That's why you can raise crossovers and still have the sub corrected correctly. SO Audyssey probably does not get the auto setup-chosen crossover points, because it would nto do anythign with them. It's also why, if you lower crossovers from the AVR-selected frequency, you at least risk leaving part of the spectrum (below the non-subs' measured -3 dB point uncorrected.
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post #18 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 02:32 PM
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Believe it or not, the reason AVR manufacturers don't let Audyssey set your front speakers to "small" is because of complaints from users - usually something along these lines; "I've got some big-a** tower speakers! There is NO way MY speakers are gonna be set to SMALL!". rolleyes.gif
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post #19 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 10:06 PM
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Audyssey doesn't set the crossovers at all. But IMO a simple change of label would fix the size paranoia thing. Don't call em small, call em bass managed. Call it "activate sub" or something. Silly to prevent yourself from proper-er setup because you chose the wrong word to describe a function.
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post #20 of 27 Old 01-16-2013, 06:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Audyssey doesn't set the crossovers at all. But IMO a simple change of label would fix the size paranoia thing.

My trouble was getting over the fact that what we have are "LARGE" floor standing speakers and to call them small meant someone wasn't using their head. Yes, agreed, for market acceptability, a new descriptor needs to be found. Personally, in this case, I think no matter what descriptor one tries to come up with, there will be confusion and troubles as bass management, the frequency range/capbility of one's speaker system, coupled with the LFE channel output alone causes a great deal of consumer confusion for neophytes.
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post #21 of 27 Old 01-16-2013, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I have mine set right as far as crossovers and speaker sizes now. My trouble is I like to have my bass turned down a little bit when watching sportscenter or something like that but then when I'm watching master and commander or Saving Private Ryan I like my sub cranked up a few notches to really "wake the neighbors". I wish it was easier to raise and lower the gain on the subwoofer on the AVR without having to go into channel levels every time.
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post #22 of 27 Old 01-16-2013, 07:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by joshgfeller View Post

I think I have mine set right as far as crossovers and speaker sizes now. My trouble is I like to have my bass turned down a little bit when watching sportscenter or something like that but then when I'm watching master and commander or Saving Private Ryan I like my sub cranked up a few notches to really "wake the neighbors". I wish it was easier to raise and lower the gain on the subwoofer on the AVR without having to go into channel levels every time.

That's the easiest way to make the changes. Just before one starts the movie, grab the remotes, go into the AVR's main menu, find speakers, subwoofer, jack the gain up a few dB's, close the deal, start movie. When the movies is over, what ever. Next time the telly is used for cable mash, back into the menu and reverse the process. Sorry, agreeing with you as I haven't found a better way.

The alternative which I followed was get a DSPeaker, Anti-Mode, 8033S II that does an excellent job of leveling the bass, take the time to learn a real time room analyzer and dial the system in so the bass is strong and not weak in the first fifty or sixty Hz of a subs capability.

(The new drivers and radiators should be delivered today)

The point, I see you're using a single 10" sub who's specs are 30Hz to 140Hz which means, for your stated desires, unfortunately, the sub being used, needs to be upgraded to a more capable configuration. Can you upgrade the subwoofer you currently have?
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post #23 of 27 Old 01-16-2013, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes I can, I need a better range of HZ?
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post #24 of 27 Old 01-16-2013, 07:33 AM
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Yes I can, I need a better range of HZ?

"Need" is an interesting word, but the simple fact is that many movies have significant output below 30 Hz, many of us can hear down to 20 if the SPL is high enough, and there's not much like the gut feeling you get from deep and powerful bass extension. Naturally you reach a point of diminishing returns, as cabinet size and expense begin go up fairly dramatically as you dig lower and lower beyond the low 20s. Enter the rotary subwoofer. biggrin.gif

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post #25 of 27 Old 01-16-2013, 07:35 AM
 
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Yes I can, I need a better range of HZ?

^ Agreeing with JD in NJ. ^

Using the Master and Commander example, if you want the chest thumping feel of the canon fire, you'll need a sub that can dig deeper with more authority; down to <20Hz so you'll need more range; digging deeper into the lower frequencies. The sub you're currently using just doesn't have the necessary amplifier energy and can't move enough air to give you this feel.

How much can you budget?
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post #26 of 27 Old 01-16-2013, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Can one be had for less than 300?
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post #27 of 27 Old 01-16-2013, 07:43 AM
 
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Can one be had for less than 300?

The current reining standard at that price point is the Klipsch, RW-12d but (my guess) due to shipping problems, the on sale price has gone up from $300.00 > $350.00. If you can get this, you're on your way. My recommendation would be to buy a second one, as soon as you're able to both boost the output of the first sub and to smooth out the bass in the room.

What are your room dimensions? Is it an open architecture such as a living room that opens up to the second floor rooms or a family room that opens up to the dining room and kitchen areas? The point, basically, one is pressurizing the room and the larger the space, the more energy is needed to energize the listening area.
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