Single subwoofer for 6300 cubic feet?? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 04:27 PM
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So, you are correct. Two co-located subs is double the output (not quadruple). To equal the output of the two colocated subs for the same single sub, you'll need quadruple the power. This is the way I understand it, anyhow... 
Thanks for the input, dominguez1. But look again at what craig john said: "6 dB is 4X the output. 200 x 4 = 800. You won't get 800 watts, you'll get the equivalent output of 800 watts." I read that to mean: "Two co-located subs of 200W/ea. will provide a 6dB increase above what a single 200W sub will deliver, and that 6dB increase is equal to what a single 800W sub in that location would provide (over a 200W sub)."

IOW, 2 x 200W subs co-located = 6dB = 1 x 800W sub.

Maybe I misunderstood craig john. Perhaps he'll chime in to clarify. smile.gif
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post #32 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

 

 

 

Eljay,

 

Another way to look at it: For every doubling of power, you get a 3db increase. I believe the assumption is the driver size stays the same (so you don't get any displacement gains); therefore 200 x 2 = 400w (3db), 400w x 2 = 800w (6db).

 

It would take the same sub powered by 800w (6db gain) to equal the output of 2 of those sames subs collocated at 200w each (6db gain). This is of course assuming the driver can handle the extra power.

 

So, you are correct. Two co-located subs is double the output (not quadruple). To equal the output of the two colocated subs for the same single sub, you'll need quadruple the power. This is the way I understand it, anyhow... smile.gif

 

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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post


Thanks for the input, dominguez1. But look again at what craig john said: "6 dB is 4X the output. 200 x 4 = 800. You won't get 800 watts, you'll get the equivalent output of 800 watts." I read that to mean: "Two co-located subs of 200W/ea. will provide a 6dB increase above what a single 200W sub will deliver, and that 6dB increase is equal to what a single 800W sub in that location would provide (over a 200W sub)."

IOW, 2 x 200W subs co-located = 6dB = 1 x 800W sub.

Maybe I misunderstood craig john. Perhaps he'll chime in to clarify. smile.gif

I think you and I just said the same thing, didn't we?

 

Where's the misunderstanding?

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post #33 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 04:40 PM
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I think you and I just said the same thing, didn't we?

Where's the misunderstanding?
The misunderstanding is entirely in my head. confused.gif* Thanks for clarifying that. Me not so S-M-R-T! biggrin.gif

(*I couldn't find an emoticon of a head with stars spinning around it. wink.gif )
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post #34 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by limsilas View Post

Thanks for all your input so far, shadyJ. However, I'm a little confused by the response above. For a large space such as mine, would you recommend two RW-12Ds, or a single beefy sub (such as the HSU VTF-3.4 or PSA XV15)? Also, by "beefy" do you mean a 15"? Because I saw you recommended the VTF-3.4, which is a 12"...

I recommend the VTF3 if you can use near-field placement, that is placing the sub next to or behind your seat. I don't think even the VTF3 could really take on that entire room if you put it off in a corner away from the listening position. Same thing does for the XV15. Don't get too hung up on driver sizes, sometimes a subwoofer with a smaller driver can be more powerful than one with a larger driver. By "beefy", I mean a sub which has a lot of output through out the entire bass range, that is 20 to 80 hz. I think those subs really start at around $1k, the VTF15h, PSA XS30, Rythmik FV15, etc. If you do not want to spend that much, I think two Klipsch RW-12ds are the next best thing on a modest budget in a large room. But, like I said above, if you can accommodate near-field placement, I would skip the Klipsch subs and get either a Hsu 12" or the vented PSA 15".
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post #35 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I recommend the VTF3 if you can use near-field placement, that is placing the sub next to or behind your seat. I don't think even the VTF3 could really take on that entire room if you put it off in a corner away from the listening position. Same thing does for the XV15. Don't get too hung up on driver sizes, sometimes a subwoofer with a smaller driver can be more powerful than one with a larger driver. By "beefy", I mean a sub which has a lot of output through out the entire bass range, that is 20 to 80 hz. I think those subs really start at around $1k, the VTF15h, PSA XS30, Rythmik FV15, etc. If you do not want to spend that much, I think two Klipsch RW-12ds are the next best thing on a modest budget in a large room. But, like I said above, if you can accommodate near-field placement, I would skip the Klipsch subs and get either a Hsu 12" or the vented PSA 15".

How about a Premier Acoustic PA-150. Would that be a good 15 to buy? I was thinking about getting this to compliment my Polk LSi15s, however, someone said they thought it wouldnt hit the range the LSis couldnt. I was going to get this sub for larger room as welll
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post #36 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by MNaudioguy View Post

How about a Premier Acoustic PA-150. Would that be a good 15 to buy? I was thinking about getting this to compliment my Polk LSi15s, however, someone said they thought it wouldnt hit the range the LSis couldnt. I was going to get this sub for larger room as welll

If you look at the PA-150's frequency response, it doesn't really start packing a punch until 50 hz and above. I think it would be a good sub, but it is more suited to bookshelf speakers which don't have a lot of bass extension. I just don't think it would contribute a whole lot to a system with tower speakers that already have upper and mid bass covered.
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post #37 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

If you look at the PA-150's frequency response, it doesn't really start packing a punch until 50 hz and above. I think it would be a good sub, but it is more suited to bookshelf speakers which don't have a lot of bass extension. I just don't think it would contribute a whole lot to a system with tower speakers that already have upper and mid bass covered.

Thanks for confirming that for me! Would two RW-12Ds get me what I need or am I better trying to save up for a HSU 15?
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post #38 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 07:28 PM
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I would not overlook a near field sub placement if possible if you are only going to go with one sub.

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post #39 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I would not overlook a near field sub placement if possible if you are only going to go with one sub.

the only problem is the basement is a large room with a big secional couch so it would be hard to do NFP
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post #40 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Really? I thought the best you could get from two co-located subs was a 6dB increase. How does a combined 400W (2 x 200W) match 800W? Is driver size involved? I'm sincerely interested to know this. Thanks.
200w plus 6dB is 800w.
As I said, that's a very simplified calc. If you want to get technical, let's assume you have a single cab that's displacement limited to 200w. If you add another identical cab total displacement is doubled, and doubling displacement equals a 6dB increase in output, which equals a single driver with an 800w displacement limit.

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post #41 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

If you look at the PA-150's frequency response, it doesn't really start packing a punch until 50 hz and above. I think it would be a good sub, but it is more suited to bookshelf speakers which don't have a lot of bass extension. I just don't think it would contribute a whole lot to a system with tower speakers that already have upper and mid bass covered.

Sorry i meant to ask, would two RW-12Ds hit the frequency response i would need if using those LSi towers?
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post #42 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MNaudioguy View Post

Sorry i meant to ask, would two RW-12Ds hit the frequency response i would need if using those LSi towers?

I'm sure they would do a better job than a single PA-150, but I would guess the RW-12ds do not go really deep, although I have not seen any FR measurements for them. A VTF15h would be better for deep bass, but of course, it is more expensive. All of this depends on what frequency you intend to cross over your towers at anyway. Another factor to consider is how deep do you want to go? How much do you care for subsonic bass? Deeper bass extension means bigger and more expensive subs.
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post #43 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I'm sure they would do a better job than a single PA-150, but I would guess the RW-12ds do not go really deep, although I have not seen any FR measurements for them. A VTF15h would be better for deep bass, but of course, it is more expensive. All of this depends on what frequency you intend to cross over your towers at anyway. Another factor to consider is how deep do you want to go? How much do you care for subsonic bass? Deeper bass extension means bigger and more expensive subs.

Maybe I will start with a re and work my way up to something better. I need to have something to look forward to right? Haha. What is a good crossover for the towers? 80? Sorry for being such a noob
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post #44 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I recommend the VTF3 if you can use near-field placement, that is placing the sub next to or behind your seat. I don't think even the VTF3 could really take on that entire room if you put it off in a corner away from the listening position. Same thing does for the XV15. Don't get too hung up on driver sizes, sometimes a subwoofer with a smaller driver can be more powerful than one with a larger driver. By "beefy", I mean a sub which has a lot of output through out the entire bass range, that is 20 to 80 hz. I think those subs really start at around $1k, the VTF15h, PSA XS30, Rythmik FV15, etc. If you do not want to spend that much, I think two Klipsch RW-12ds are the next best thing on a modest budget in a large room. But, like I said above, if you can accommodate near-field placement, I would skip the Klipsch subs and get either a Hsu 12" or the vented PSA 15".

That makes a lot of sense. As I am unwilling to spend around $1,000 on a single sub, that limits me to either the dual RW-12Ds or a single "better" sub with near-field placement. For my purposes, do you recommend the vented PSA 15 over the sealed? Would there be a noticeable difference between the two? Thanks again for your valued input!
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post #45 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MNaudioguy View Post

Maybe I will start with a re and work my way up to something better. I need to have something to look forward to right? Haha. What is a good crossover for the towers? 80? Sorry for being such a noob

It will depend. If your towers can do upper bass better than the sub, you might want it a bit lower, like maybe 60. I would experiment with different crossover points to see if you like the upper bass better from them or your subwoofer. Try different things and stick with whatever sounds best to you. 80 is standard, but it isn't a hard rule.
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post #46 of 56 Old 01-23-2013, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by limsilas View Post

That makes a lot of sense. As I am unwilling to spend around $1,000 on a single sub, that limits me to either the dual RW-12Ds or a single "better" sub with near-field placement. For my purposes, do you recommend the vented PSA 15 over the sealed? Would there be a noticeable difference between the two? Thanks again for your valued input!

If you go with PSA, you will probably want the ported XV15. The XS15 won't dig as deep.
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post #47 of 56 Old 01-24-2013, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

If you go with PSA, you will probably want the ported XV15. The XS15 won't dig as deep.

I agree. I would get the ported one. Generally speaking, ported subs play louder which is probably the biggest issue you'll face in your room.
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post #48 of 56 Old 01-24-2013, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by limsilas View Post

That makes a lot of sense. As I am unwilling to spend around $1,000 on a single sub, that limits me to either the dual RW-12Ds or a single "better" sub with near-field placement. For my purposes, do you recommend the vented PSA 15 over the sealed? Would there be a noticeable difference between the two? Thanks again for your valued input!

My PSA XV15 does real well in my large basement area. Everyone so far has been quite surprised with its output.

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post #49 of 56 Old 01-24-2013, 06:03 AM
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200w plus 6dB is 800w.
As I said, that's a very simplified calc. If you want to get technical, let's assume you have a single cab that's displacement limited to 200w. If you add another identical cab total displacement is doubled, and doubling displacement equals a 6dB increase in output, which equals a single driver with an 800w displacement limit.
Thanks, Bill, for the reply and for raising this point in the first place (in post #25). smile.gif
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post #50 of 56 Old 01-24-2013, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

It will depend. If your towers can do upper bass better than the sub, you might want it a bit lower, like maybe 60. I would experiment with different crossover points to see if you like the upper bass better from them or your subwoofer. Try different things and stick with whatever sounds best to you. 80 is standard, but it isn't a hard rule.

Thank you! Back to the drawing board for me. All things are pointing to me getting one of the more expensive 15s like the PSA XV15. That is at least under 1k. Do you all think that would compliment my towers (LSi15s) nicely? Would you recommend the PSA over the HSU 15?
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post #51 of 56 Old 01-24-2013, 10:03 AM
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I don't think the XV15 would be quite as powerful, but almost. There is probably some frequencies where it performs better and other frequencies where it doesn't have as much capability.
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post #52 of 56 Old 01-24-2013, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for everyone's feedback!

I also forgot to mention - if this is even relevant - that this sub will be mated with the current-generation Pioneer Andrew Jones line (FS52, C22, BS22), all to be driven by a Denon AVR-1713.

Given that my setup is basically a "budget" system - it would feel strange to purchase a sub that costs almost twice as much as the rest of the speakers, especially since I'm not a bass head - and also that the RW-12Ds are back on sale at Newegg, I am strongly leaning towards a single RW-12D to begin with, and perhaps a second one down the line.
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post #53 of 56 Old 01-24-2013, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RickMa View Post

My PSA XV15 does real well in my large basement area. Everyone so far has been quite surprised with its output.

RickMa, are you using a single XV15 in the basement?
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post #54 of 56 Old 01-24-2013, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by limsilas View Post

RickMa, are you using a single XV15 in the basement?

That is correct.


Room layout is different right now but that gives an idea of the overall size of the room.

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post #55 of 56 Old 01-24-2013, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

SVS is a well-regarded company with a reputation for solid products and excellent customer service. smile.gif

i have a couple of the higher end svs woofers and i can agree with this comment. the problem is the higher end subs are pretty pricey so that comes into play wehn making this decision. that said, i think they are worth every penny (but what sub owner won't say that about their own sub?)

My HT: Onkyo 818, polk m60 Hsu HB1-MK2, HC1-MK2, svs pb12+/2, svs pc13
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post #56 of 56 Old 01-28-2013, 04:05 AM
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If you are considering deep bass extension, the PA 150 is not a Rythmik 15 in sub. But, as far as filling the room it will do a good job since it output above 30 Hz is on par with the 1k sub. Two would be even better. I have one paired with some large towers, Klipsch RF 7's and it clearly makes HT and music more dynamic. The tower go down to 32 Hz, but I run everything as small speaker. Even when I set the towers to large the PA 150 gives better bass and deeper. The PA 150 is paired with an Epik Legend. The are an awesome combination and the room shakes plenty. Just my .02 form experience with the two in a large room over 4000 cf. The PA 150 is a nice sounding sub especially with music.

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