Subwoofer suggestions for 2,400 cu. ft. Room - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello,

I'm having a challenging time getting good bass in my home theater. The room is 14 x 19 x 9. It is all enclosed and carpeted.

The current setup of subs is 2 of the SVS PB-12 NSDs. I thought having two would get the bass I needed, but no change really. I have tried placing them in the front corners, inside the front speakers, along the side walls, but no deep bass seems to be heard. I'm not sure if the Audyssey correction is the one doing the bass killing, but something is.

In another room (roughly 10 x10) I have one Klipsch SW-112 and it sounds amazing! It just sitting inside the front right speaker and the room only has 3 walls. So, more air to more, yet the bass sounds great.

I just ordered the SVS SB13-Ultra. Never tried a sealed sub before, but I'm really running out of ideas. So, any suggestions or tips would be greatly appreciated.

BTW, the main speakers are Paradigm monitor 11s. I have set the crossover in the amp at 60Hz for the front speakers.

Thanks.
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post #2 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StanGeek View Post

Hello,

I'm having a challenging time getting good bass in my home theater. The room is 14 x 19 x 9. It is all enclosed and carpeted.

The current setup of subs is 2 of the SVS PB-12 NSDs. I thought having two would get the bass I needed, but no change really. I have tried placing them in the front corners, inside the front speakers, along the side walls, but no deep bass seems to be heard. I'm not sure if the Audyssey correction is the one doing the bass killing, but something is.

Based on what I know about the dynamic range and bass extension of that particular sub, you are probably not having dynamic range problems. That leaves equalization problems.

What are you doing with the adjustments on the sub after running Audyssey? Audyssey is not perfect, and doing post-tuning by various means, both inside the AVR and outside it are recommended. On the worst day of your life get a parametric eq and kick the sub(s) in the butt, post Audyssey.
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post #3 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Based on what I know about the dynamic range and bass extension of that particular sub, you are probably not having dynamic range problems. That leaves equalization problems.

What are you doing with the adjustments on the sub after running Audyssey? Audyssey is not perfect, and doing post-tuning by various means, both inside the AVR and outside it are recommended. On the worst day of your life get a parametric eq and kick the sub(s) in the butt, post Audyssey.

Thanks for the suggestions. I am increasing the sub levels in the AVR after Audyssey completes. The settings are usually around -10db. So, I move them to -8db or so. That does increase the bass more, but I still feel something else is going on. Not sure what other settings at the sub I should change. The phase control did not do much.

I really thought that having two of those would deliver a lot of bass in that size room.
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post #4 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 07:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by StanGeek View Post

The current setup of subs is 2 of the SVS PB-12 NSDs. I thought having two would get the bass I needed, but no change really. I have tried placing them in the front corners, inside the front speakers, along the side walls, but no deep bass seems to be heard. I'm not sure if the Audyssey correction is the one doing the bass killing, but something is.

Have you taken the time to obtain a room analyzing program? Without one of these, regarding subwoofer placement and control settings, you're guessing as it's quite possible you have some bass nulls which are robbing you of your desired bass.

Allow me to encourage, before doing anything else, stop looking at your subs as the problem and start looking at the room's acoustics and one's need to acquire a room analyzing program so as to identify these bass stealing nulls.

Hope the above helps.

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post #5 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Have you taken the time to obtain a room analyzing program? Without one of these, regarding subwoofer placement and control settings, you're guessing as it's quite possible you have some bass nulls which are robbing you of your desired bass.

Allow me to encourage, before doing anything else, stop looking at your subs as the problem and start looking at the room's acoustics and one's need to acquire a room analyzing program so as to identify these bass stealing nulls.

Hope the above helps.

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Thanks. I've never used those programs. Do you have names of suggested one?
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post #6 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 08:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by StanGeek View Post

Thanks. I've never used those programs. Do you have names of suggested one?

The least expensive is REW, a freeware program but you need to purchase microphone, sound meter, cables and any interface (Phantom Power Supply) card necessary to interact with your computer.

The least complicated but much more user friendly version is the "OmniMic" program which can be obtained here. Overall, a bit more expensive but much more efficient in time usage; ease of getting up and running.

I can't rightly say which is better as both do an excellent job of providing room measurements so one can on screen, visualize what's what with their subwoofer related room acoustics.

The difference having a room analyzing program up and running is priceless when it comes to fixing those nasty, bass stealing nulls. In the last few days of playing with subs and room analyzing program, I've successfully corrected to two serious null issues (15-17dB each), one at ~28Hz and a, non-harmonic (no sympathetic response) related one at ~88Hz. I still have more to do but what's transpired over the last few days qualifies as an excellent start and could not have been done without the aid of the room analyzing program.

The realtime room analyzer (RTA) also shows I have several, non-speaker related, standing wave issues in the sub-250Hz frequency range. One of them, I'm guessing, is harmonic related; 60Hz vs 120Hz. All of which can't be seen without aid of a room analyzer.

Disclosure: On top of the room analyzing efforts, in an adjunct fashion, DSPeaker's Anti-Mode was added. The Anti-Mode can be considered polish to one's room analyzing efforts.

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post #7 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 08:18 AM
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Have you tried turning one of the subs phase control to 180? Was there more bass ?

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post #8 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by StanGeek View Post

Thanks for the suggestions. I am increasing the sub levels in the AVR after Audyssey completes. The settings are usually around -10db. So, I move them to -8db or so. That does increase the bass more, but I still feel something else is going on. Not sure what other settings at the sub I should change. The phase control did not do much.

I really thought that having two of those would deliver a lot of bass in that size room.

If your AVR is setting the sub to -10db after Audyssey runs you probably have the gain set way too high the subwoofer's amp. When I first got my SVS PB10-NSD I had the gain set at 12:00 position and ran Audyssey, it set my sub trim to -12db and the bass was pretty much non-existant. I then adjusted gain to the 9:00 position and rain Audyssey again and this time my trim level was set to -2db and sounded significantly better!

Try lowering the gain on your subwoofers and run Audyssey again, ideally you want the trim as close to 0db as possible after running Audyssey. Also make sure the crossover is set to Bypass or set to highest setting.
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post #9 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowdane View Post

If your AVR is setting the sub to -10db after Audyssey runs you probably have the gain set way too high the subwoofer's amp. When I first got my SVS PB10-NSD I had the gain set at 12:00 position and ran Audyssey, it set my sub trim to -12db and the bass was pretty much non-existant. I then adjusted gain to the 9:00 position and rain Audyssey again and this time my trim level was set to -2db and sounded significantly better!

Try lowering the gain on your subwoofers and run Audyssey again, ideally you want the trim as close to 0db as possible after running Audyssey. Also make sure the crossover is set to Bypass or set to highest setting.

Plus 1 on that. If you have 2 PB-12 NSD in a room that size and have no base something is definitely not set right. Try the suggestions from the other posters
and also give SVS a call they are very helpful with set up.

I would hate to see you throw more money at subs when you more than likely just need to change some settings.
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post #10 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 10:12 AM
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Try adjusting the phase of one subwoofer to 180 and leave the other at 0 play some test tones. If its louder with one with the phase control at 180 odds are one of your subs is wired reverse. Easy 15 minute fix.

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post #11 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 11:28 AM
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if you turn one subwoofer off and the bass increases, then one is wired in reverse
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post #12 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 11:47 AM
 
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And then again, the added sub could be increasing an existing null. wink.gif
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post #13 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 11:59 AM
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No one has mentioned where your listening position is, is it near the middle of the room? Have you tried walking around to see how the bass varies, to make sure you're not sitting in a bass null? even moving the subs won't be able to overcome a serious bass null in a room.

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post #14 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscorv58 View Post

Have you tried turning one of the subs phase control to 180? Was there more bass ?

Thanks for the suggestion. I have not gone all the way to 180, but have tried 90 to 100 and no real perceived change in bass happened.
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post #15 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowdane View Post

If your AVR is setting the sub to -10db after Audyssey runs you probably have the gain set way too high the subwoofer's amp. When I first got my SVS PB10-NSD I had the gain set at 12:00 position and ran Audyssey, it set my sub trim to -12db and the bass was pretty much non-existant. I then adjusted gain to the 9:00 position and rain Audyssey again and this time my trim level was set to -2db and sounded significantly better!

Try lowering the gain on your subwoofers and run Audyssey again, ideally you want the trim as close to 0db as possible after running Audyssey. Also make sure the crossover is set to Bypass or set to highest setting.

Thanks for this suggestion. If I reduce the sub volume to get Audyssey to set a trim close to 0db, would it not have less bass with the sub amp set to a lower volume? Or is it that we want the AVR to trim less of the sound going to the sub and not have the sub get less signal and then amplify that?
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post #16 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DanL View Post

Plus 1 on that. If you have 2 PB-12 NSD in a room that size and have no base something is definitely not set right. Try the suggestions from the other posters
and also give SVS a call they are very helpful with set up.

I would hate to see you throw more money at subs when you more than likely just need to change some settings.

Thanks, Dan! I agree with you. I really thought 2 subs of that size would be more than enough for my room. The AVR has a sub level matching feature that seems to want the volume level around 10 o'clock to be around 75 db for each. All I see is the Audyssey value changing from 75 to 78 and being green to being at 80+ and then showing red (that it needs to be lower).
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post #17 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chriscorv58 View Post

Try adjusting the phase of one subwoofer to 180 and leave the other at 0 play some test tones. If its louder with one with the phase control at 180 odds are one of your subs is wired reverse. Easy 15 minute fix.

Thanks. I'm not sure I can change the connection, since they are RCA type coming from the AVR and into the sub.
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post #18 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 12:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mikepos View Post

Even moving the subs won't be able to overcome a serious bass null in a room.

Just saying. Yesterday, moving our subs into different locations helped with two serious bass null issues. Not arguing, just sharing personal, REW measured, experience.

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post #19 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepos View Post

No one has mentioned where your listening position is, is it near the middle of the room? Have you tried walking around to see how the bass varies, to make sure you're not sitting in a bass null? even moving the subs won't be able to overcome a serious bass null in a room.

Thanks for bringing this one out. The listening position is at about 2/3 of the way from the front, so not in the middle of the room. I've had such a time with this, that I finally broke down yesterday and put the subs in my listening chair and crawled around the room's edge with my head close to the ground. I have to say that it did not give me much in the way of information, but the front corners were the only ones with some bass.
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post #20 of 28 Old 01-28-2013, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by StanGeek View Post

Thanks. I'm not sure I can change the connection, since they are RCA type coming from the AVR and into the sub.
it would require a phone call to svs and telling them your situation, next is pulling the amplifier and changing the connections internally. But before you do all this just see if its louder with one sub on.

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post #21 of 28 Old 01-29-2013, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chriscorv58 View Post

it would require a phone call to svs and telling them your situation, next is pulling the amplifier and changing the connections internally. But before you do all this just see if its louder with one sub on.

Thanks. I tried one of the subs with the phase at 0 and the other at 180 and the one with the 180 setting seemed to have a bit more bass. So, I moved the other to 180 and things seem a bit better. I'll try it out tonight with an action movie and see.
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post #22 of 28 Old 01-29-2013, 10:26 AM
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I agree with the suggestion to walk around the room and see if the bass is good anywhere. If it is, then you have a bad placement issue and should move the subs, otherwise, you may just need to crank up the gain on the receiver. Audyssey always sets my levels lower than I prefer.
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post #23 of 28 Old 01-29-2013, 10:47 AM
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Turn one sub off and power one on with phase set to 0. Is there more bass?

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post #24 of 28 Old 01-29-2013, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I agree with the suggestion to walk around the room and see if the bass is good anywhere. If it is, then you have a bad placement issue and should move the subs, otherwise, you may just need to crank up the gain on the receiver. Audyssey always sets my levels lower than I prefer.

Thanks! I got some test tones today and played them with both subs and then with only 1 sub (alternating). It was AMAZING how in my seating location the bass was almost non-existent! It was really loud and almost boomy in the front half of the room, but the back part was dead until I got up to the back wall.

So, I'm moving them to the back of the room. I moved one and instantly had a lot of bass. Not sure why it is so dead in my seating area, since it's not in the midpoint of the room.
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post #25 of 28 Old 01-29-2013, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chriscorv58 View Post

Turn one sub off and power one on with phase set to 0. Is there more bass?

I tried that test and the bass was the same with either sub on with the phase set to 0. So, at least I confirmed that the subs seem to be wired correctly.
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post #26 of 28 Old 01-29-2013, 02:18 PM
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Your seating position is in a null or dead spot... You should move the subs around to find a position to overcome the dead spot... Usually, one sub should be in a corner and the other sub should be along the side wall opposite of the sub...

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post #27 of 28 Old 01-30-2013, 01:02 AM
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Running all speakers as small and using a universal xo of 80 may help with the bass responese in the room. It seems as if the room is a big problem. Running everything as small will eliminate some phase and cancellation issues. Having the subs doing the bass for the system is also useful. The higher xo will re-direct a little more bass to the subs.

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post #28 of 28 Old 01-30-2013, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

Your seating position is in a null or dead spot... You should move the subs around to find a position to overcome the dead spot... Usually, one sub should be in a corner and the other sub should be along the side wall opposite of the sub...

Yes. Unfortunately, that was the problem. I moved the subs behind the listening area and the bass response is much better. Ordering the SVS SB13 Ultra may not have been needed, but that sub is so nice! I'm upgrading both of the PB-12 NSDs. biggrin.gif
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