How much will I miss if I "only" go down to 25Hz? - AVS Forum
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Any scenes from your favorites? For example, looking at the BIC F-12 and it is "only" 25Hz. What do you think I'll miss besides maybe the famous War of the Worlds tripod scene?

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Old 01-29-2013, 08:14 PM
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I think there only a handfull of movies with content below 25 hz. The question is does BIC really go down to 25 hz
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

]The question is does BIC really go down to 25 hz
+1. If its -3dB at 25Hz that's one thing, if it's -10dB at 25Hz that's something else entirely. I can't find an SPL chart for it, and IMO no chart, no sale.
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:37 PM
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The bic f12 doesn't go down to 25Hz. It goes down to about 32 Hz.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1391243/bic-v1220-and-bic-f12-omnimic-frequency-response-graphs/0_20


Get the klipsch rw-12d instead to get to about 23Hz.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1390563/klipsch-rw-12d-omnimic-frequency-response-graphs/0_20

Both subs measured in the same spot in the same room on the same equipment. The frequency captures do not represent max volume.


As to what you'll miss. The low frequencies produce the pant leg flapping shake. Neither of these budget subs will create that. You gotta step up to about a 1000$ sub and a smaller room to get into forced grin territory.

Both subs sound decent. The klipsch is better than the bic but won't necessarily be louder at producing higher kickdrum type bass frequencies.

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Old 01-29-2013, 09:11 PM
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There are a lot and movies with bass below 25Hz. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/0_50 . You'll be missing a lot but if you never hear and feel it you'll never know your missing it.

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Old 01-29-2013, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

There are a lot and movies with bass below 25Hz. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/0_50 . You'll be missing a lot but if you never hear and feel it you'll never know your missing it.

I'd definitely agree with that. Anyone who says there are only a handful of movies with sub 25hz content; doesn't have the equipment to experience sub 25hz content. biggrin.gif

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Old 01-29-2013, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

The bic f12 doesn't go down to 25Hz. It goes down to about 32 Hz.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1391243/bic-v1220-and-bic-f12-omnimic-frequency-response-graphs/0_20


Get the klipsch rw-12d instead to get to about 23Hz.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1390563/klipsch-rw-12d-omnimic-frequency-response-graphs/0_20

Both subs measured in the same spot in the same room on the same equipment. The frequency captures do not represent max volume.


As to what you'll miss. The low frequencies produce the pant leg flapping shake. Neither of these budget subs will create that. You gotta step up to about a 1000$ sub and a smaller room to get into forced grin territory.

Both subs sound decent. The klipsch is better than the bic but won't necessarily be louder at producing higher kickdrum type bass frequencies.

$1000! I thought that HSU was supposed to do all that for $400.

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Old 01-29-2013, 09:43 PM
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In a broom closet maybe. wink.gif

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Old 01-29-2013, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

You'll be missing a lot but if you never hear and feel it you'll never know your missing it.

I disagree with this. The vast majority of bass content, even in movies and even in the ones in the aboce list, is above 25 hz. Now I wouldn't want my subs to roll off much lower than that, but I think a lot of guys around here are kidding themselves about the prevalence of bass in the low 20s and under. It mostly only happens briefly in only a few scenes in certain kinds of movies. There are exceptions of course, but the problem there is if powerful deep bass is used frequently in sound track mix, the audience becomes numb to it, and it isn't anything to take notice of anymore. It's sort of like how music is mixed very hot and highly compressed, it loses its dynamic range and becomes a flat listening experience. If the sound mix is nothing but constant deep thuds and rumbles, the novelty wears off after 5 minutes, and you are left with a grueling movie watching experience and a need for aspirin. One example of this for me was Iron Man 2.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:24 PM
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You have very small hands smile.gif and you do know what it means when you have small hands:D

I guess the link provides a better answer to what movies do contain very low frequencies

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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I'd definitely agree with that. Anyone who says there are only a handful of movies with sub 25hz content; doesn't have the equipment to experience sub 25hz content. biggrin.gif
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I disagree with this. The vast majority of bass content, even in movies and even in the ones in the aboce list, is above 25 hz. Now I wouldn't want my subs to roll off much lower than that, but I think a lot of guys around here are kidding themselves about the prevalence of bass in the low 20s and under. It mostly only happens briefly in only a few scenes in certain kinds of movies. There are exceptions of course, but the problem there is if powerful deep bass is used frequently in sound track mix, the audience becomes numb to it, and it isn't anything to take notice of anymore. It's sort of like how music is mixed very hot and highly compressed, it loses its dynamic range and becomes a flat listening experience. If the sound mix is nothing but constant deep thuds and rumbles, the novelty wears off after 5 minutes, and you are left with a grueling movie watching experience and a need for aspirin. One example of this for me was Iron Man 2.
I agree that if movies where just scenes of sub 25Hz bass it would be an annoying mess, but the movies in the link do provide lots movies and scenes with sub 25Hz bass. To me the large number of movies with "scenes" below 25Hz bass are well worth it and without a sub to experience those scenes he'll be missing a lot.

To me Iron Man 2 is a bass fest and I love it while to you it's a movie that as you say you need an aspirin after watching. You and I have different opinions as to how important deep bass is and the thread starter wanted to know what he'd be missing. Since I can't bring him over to listen here's a forum dedicated to deep bass with an A-Z list of movies with deep bass, many with spectrum graphs so he can see what he'd be missing . http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/databass-movies-deep-bass-dmdb/#axzz2JR8FgtqX

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Old 01-30-2013, 12:44 AM
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I think what we disagree on is how much that content below 25 hz adds to the experience. I would agree that it does enhance some movies somewhat, but I could very easily enjoy movies without it. I would argue its the least important range of sound after extreme high and ultrasonic frequencies.
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I think what we disagree on is how much that content below 25 hz adds to the experience. I would agree that it does enhance some movies somewhat, but I could very easily enjoy movies without it. I would argue its the least important range of sound after extreme high and ultrasonic frequencies.
+1. While many DVDs have a lot of content below 25Hz very few systems have the ability to do much with it; in terms of power and physical size a system capable of doing much with below 25Hz content dwarfs what perhaps 99% of users have.

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Old 01-30-2013, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I disagree with this. The vast majority of bass content, even in movies and even in the ones in the aboce list, is above 25 hz. Now I wouldn't want my subs to roll off much lower than that, but I think a lot of guys around here are kidding themselves about the prevalence of bass in the low 20s and under. It mostly only happens briefly in only a few scenes in certain kinds of movies. There are exceptions of course, but the problem there is if powerful deep bass is used frequently in sound track mix, the audience becomes numb to it, and it isn't anything to take notice of anymore. It's sort of like how music is mixed very hot and highly compressed, it loses its dynamic range and becomes a flat listening experience. If the sound mix is nothing but constant deep thuds and rumbles, the novelty wears off after 5 minutes, and you are left with a grueling movie watching experience and a need for aspirin. One example of this for me was Iron Man 2.
While you are welcome to your opinion, I respectfully disagree. IME, infrasonic content adds a level of immersiveness and involvement that is missing without it. I have owned subwoofer systems that rolled off at 25 Hz, 20 Hz and my current system that is flat to below 15 Hz. The differences between these systems are noticeable and remarkable. I would not want to go back to a system that could not reproduce infrasonics.

I will acknowledge that what comes along with infrasonic capability is massive *sonic* capability. In order to produce the ultra-long wavelengths of low frequencies at high output, you need massive amounts of excursion and multiple drivers. All that excursion means you can also do the sonic bandwidth at very high output with low distortion. That certainly adds to the impact and effect. However, the pressure and sensation of the infrasonic range can add a sense of apprehension, dread or fear that sonic content simply can't.

We watched Looper the other night. That movie is loaded with infrasonics. I watched it again just last night because it was so good. (It's a pretty good movie too.) I'm sure it "sounds" fine on a 25 Hz limited system. However, on a system with high output infrasonic capability, it "FEELS' great also.

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Old 01-30-2013, 09:43 AM
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^ ^ ^ and having mulitipule subs just increases that "feel" with the lower hz and it feels like it has a 3-D impact on your body.
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:59 AM
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^ ^ ^ and having mulitipule subs just increases that "feel" with the lower hz and it feels like it has a 3-D impact on your body.

Not to mention that the real world has these effects so to me without them feels more unnatural.

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Old 01-30-2013, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I disagree with this. The vast majority of bass content, even in movies and even in the ones in the aboce list, is above 25 hz. Now I wouldn't want my subs to roll off much lower than that, but I think a lot of guys around here are kidding themselves about the prevalence of bass in the low 20s and under. It mostly only happens briefly in only a few scenes in certain kinds of movies. There are exceptions of course, but the problem there is if powerful deep bass is used frequently in sound track mix, the audience becomes numb to it, and it isn't anything to take notice of anymore. It's sort of like how music is mixed very hot and highly compressed, it loses its dynamic range and becomes a flat listening experience. If the sound mix is nothing but constant deep thuds and rumbles, the novelty wears off after 5 minutes, and you are left with a grueling movie watching experience and a need for aspirin. One example of this for me was Iron Man 2.

You do realize you contradicted yourself here. You mention compressed music becoming a flat listening experience; yet you are OK compressing the dynamic range of the movie soundtrack? If you are cutting out sub 25hz bass you are "compressing" the track. wink.gif

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You have very small hands smile.gif and you do know what it means when you have small hands:D

Yeah, it means I've have a subwoofer system capable of sub 25hz information, whereas you apparently do not. wink.gif

This wasn't a mine is bigger thread; I was merely answering the OP question about sub 25hz information. If you are OK without it, that's your prerogative; but to say it's not important is an inaccurate statement.

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While you are welcome to your opinion, I respectfully disagree. IME, infrasonic content adds a level of immersiveness and involvement that is missing without it. I have owned subwoofer systems that rolled off at 25 Hz, 20 Hz and my current system that is flat to below 15 Hz. The differences between these systems are noticeable and remarkable. I would not want to go back to a system that could not reproduce infrasonics.

Amen.

We tout about trying to replicate the original source as closely as possible. That means the audio as well as the video. I wouldn't watch a 2.37 movie as 4.3, so why would I compress the audio track. You might as well listen to it in DD as opposed to lossless. smile.gif

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Old 01-30-2013, 10:41 AM
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The thread starter asked "What do you think I'll miss besides maybe the famous War of the Worlds tripod scene?". The HTS link has about 275 movies with scenes below 25Hz and most of those movies have multiple scenes below 25Hz, so that's a lot of sub 25Hz content that he'll be missing. I love the feeling of ultra low bass and how it adds to the movie and makes it feel more real. Why wouldn't I want to hear/feel everything in the soundtrack? I won't buy a sub that can't play ultra low, but that's just me.

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Old 01-30-2013, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

There are a lot and movies with bass below 25Hz. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/0_50 . You'll be missing a lot but if you never hear and feel it you'll never know your missing it.

Yup exactly for years I had a 12" Infinity subwoofer which was down about -3db @ 32Hz. I thought it sounded great and didn't think I was missing a thing.

I had the Infinity for about 5-6yrs and then I went over to a friends house for a movie night. He had 2 18" subs, not sure what model he had. It's been quite a few years since I heard them... but I was amazed with the sound. I was hearing things in movies I had never heard before. Had be smiling the entire day and also got me addicted to ULF! smile.gif

After that night I knew I had to upgrade to a better sub! Started with a SVS PB10-NSD which is just fine for my apartment. I want to upgrade but going with anything bigger in an apartment will most likely just upset my neighbors.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Not to mention that the real world has these effects so to me without them feels more unnatural.
I'd estimate that the great majority of movie scenes with sub 25hz are not ones likely to be experienced in reality by the average person.

When I do sense infrasonic it is either very rarely interesting (every few months) or if more common, then mundane (diesel engine)
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:30 PM
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I'd estimate that the great majority of movie scenes with sub 25hz are not ones likely to be experienced in reality by the average person.
I would agree about the "average" person, but, c'mon man... this is the Subwoofer Forum!
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When I do sense infrasonic it is either very rarely interesting (every few months) or if more common, then mundane (diesel engine)

Do you find thunder mundane or uninteresting? From the Journal of Geophysical Research:
Quote:
Forty thunder events from intracloud and cloud-to-ground lightning were analyzed by analog and digital power spectrum methods. Thunder exhibits a low Q(0.5 to 2) spectrum with peak power observed at frequencies from <4 to 125 Hz. Significant differences are noted between thunder from intracloud and cloud-to-ground lightning. Intracloud thunder spectrums show a mean peak value of power at 28 Hz with a mean total acoustic energy of 1.9×1013 ergs. Cloud-to-ground spectrums show a mean peak value at 50 Hz with a mean total acoustic energy of 6.3×1013 ergs. The mean total acoustic efficiency for discharges to ground is calculated to be 0.18%. The thunder power spectrum is time varying. The mechanism of thunder production by a thermally driven expanding channel as described by A. A. Few appears to account for the dominant frequencies observed from many cloud-to-ground flashes, but cannot explain the high-energy low-frequency peaks of some cloud-to-ground and most intracloud discharges. The electrostatic mechanism of C. T. R. Wilson and of S. A. Colgate is proposed to explain the large energy peaks at frequencies less than 10 Hz.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/JC076i009p02106/full

I don't know about you, but thunder can scare the hell out of me, and part of that is the infrasonic content.

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Old 01-30-2013, 12:37 PM
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I went on a two day movie watching binge after upgrading from a cheap Sony sub to dual SVS cylinders. I then did another binge when upgrading to multiple sealed. As mentioned earlier; those who don't have sub capable of reproducing the full spectrum are really missing out on some exciting content. Just sayin.

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Old 01-30-2013, 12:38 PM
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I would agree about the "average" person, but, c'mon man... this is the Subwoofer Forum!
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:40 PM
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I would agree about the "average" person, but, c'mon man... this is the Subwoofer Forum!
Do you find thunder mundane or uninteresting? From the Journal of Geophysical Research:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/JC076i009p02106/full

I don't know about you, but thunder can scare the hell out of me, and part of that is the infrasonic content.

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Old 01-30-2013, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

You do realize you contradicted yourself here. You mention compressed music becoming a flat listening experience; yet you are OK compressing the dynamic range of the movie soundtrack? If you are cutting out sub 25hz bass you are "compressing" the track. wink.gif

That is not how I read it, but he can correct me. No one here says anything about compressing or even filtering tracks. Let's not forget pretty much everything you hear on the effects track is synthesized, which means can be manipulated at the time of mixing, so if a mixer only includes sound effects that don't reach below a given FR it doesn't meant he compresses the signal.


The question was how much one missing if one's system rolls off below 25hz.and the answer is: it depends.

Depends: How much of a bass head you're. Is you'e sub is still very strong at @ 25hz. Do you listen tracks at near reference.Are you happy with the bass when visiting your local movie theaters? If yes, then the answer is: quiet a bit at least in some cases.
Prepare to spend quiet a bit of money and there won't be any cute tacked away mini sub that could do the job.. Below 30hz is where commercial theaters start to roll of as well and for a good reason, it's extremely difficult to fill large auditoriums with LF's like that without spending enormous amount of money in contrast to the rest of the system. For most movie houses it just won't make sense. So one has to decide still on an individual basis if it's worth it. I would say yes for me.wink.gif

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Old 01-30-2013, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post

I'd estimate that the great majority of movie scenes with sub 25hz are not ones likely to be experienced in reality by the average person.

When I do sense infrasonic it is either very rarely interesting (every few months) or if more common, then mundane (diesel engine)

Agreed, as I posted above all of those sounds are fake, and they try to convey reality, but they are also stylized to some degree to elicit excitement but more so on the subconscious level. Having said that there are directors and sound crews that do "cater" to the HT crowd be it bass or surround effects.

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Old 01-30-2013, 02:03 PM
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I say this all the time but people just don't understand. Everyday life has infrasonics all the time. They are not huge bass effects from movies, they are little nuances that add weight, pressure, feeling, etc. that we take for granted because they occur naturally. When a movie has a full bandwidth soundtrack it just sounds more real unless the mixer or whoever purposely added or subtracted something. My example I use all the time is when I am at the office which is close to my road. Everytime a truck of significant weight passes by 3 things happen. First, I can hear the loud deep tone it produces from the engine and rolling at 40 MPH. Second, I can feel the energy from it passing by which vibrates my chest and rasises my hair a bit, not much, but enough. Lastly, as it goes by I all of a sudden feel a shiver and my desk rattles. This happens after the truck goes by and the other two effects happens before and during passing my office. That last effect are longer, slower waves(infrasonics) and why they reach me later and adds to the effect in real life. If a movie does not have these effects then they were removed or turned down to protect their subs during mixing. I know that if life was highpassed like some movies I would never feel those effects. They happen all the time and not rare.

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Old 01-30-2013, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Agreed, as I posted above all of those sounds are fake, and they try to convey reality, but they are also stylized to some degree to elicit excitement but more so on the subconscious level. Having said that there are directors and sound crews that do "cater" to the HT crowd be it bass or surround effects.

So is one man taking down an entire army, so should we cut out 1/2 of Hollywoods latest releases? wink.gif

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Old 01-30-2013, 02:32 PM
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You do realize you contradicted yourself here. You mention compressed music becoming a flat listening experience; yet you are OK compressing the dynamic range of the movie soundtrack? If you are cutting out sub 25hz bass you are "compressing" the track.

Yup, you didn't see my point. I am saying if you overuse strong deep bass in a sound track, you become inured to it, and that reduces its effectiveness. I am not proposing deep bass being used less necessarily, I am calling for it to be used more judiciously. Which probably means more in movies that don't have it at all and less in movies that its nonstop in.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:35 PM
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Loud impressive thunder is a rare exciting event. Every 6mo. or so where I live.

I watched a terrific movie recently that had some great thunder sound recording, it was called "Take Shelter". Maybe the greatest use of thunder I have yet seen in a movie.
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