Good sub to run along with an empire? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 02-01-2013, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Any recommendations for a sub to run with an empire? I would buy a second if i could but cant find any used or new. I'm looking for something similar in specs so they will blend well but cant seem to find anything.... Or just wait until epik comes back alive and hope they have a sale? Dayton audio makes something similar with 2 12's for around $1000, may go that route.
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post #2 of 22 Old 02-02-2013, 05:42 AM
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You could go with anything in a similar class. I even think you could go with something ported.

Sub performance is very dependent on room placement, so placing identical subs in different spots in a room isn't much different from placing non-identical subs. Having mismatched subs is nothing like having mismatched fronts.

I think having identical subs is overblown and until someone shows actual measurements that indicate what the differences are, i'll be very skeptical.
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post #3 of 22 Old 02-02-2013, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

You could go with anything in a similar class. I even think you could go with something ported.

Sub performance is very dependent on room placement, so placing identical subs in different spots in a room isn't much different from placing non-identical subs. Having mismatched subs is nothing like having mismatched fronts.

I think having identical subs is overblown and until someone shows actual measurements that indicate what the differences are, i'll be very skeptical.

My experience, too. Also there's this industry guy that seems to agree with varying types of subs and placement called Dr Geddes. http://www.gedlee.com/ Check out this thread http://www.avsforum.com/t/1124011/are-three-inexpensive-subs-better-than-one-expensive-sub-dr-earl-geddes-approach

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post #4 of 22 Old 02-02-2013, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

My experience, too. Also there's this industry guy that seems to agree with varying types of subs and placement called Dr Geddes. http://www.gedlee.com/ Check out this thread http://www.avsforum.com/t/1124011/are-three-inexpensive-subs-better-than-one-expensive-sub-dr-earl-geddes-approach

I believe this approach is more suited towards music than home theater. I have tried integrating multiple subs that had different output and extension and it really did not work out well for me. But every room is different and everyone has different expectations.

OP, I would probably look at SVS, and PSA and see what they have. Try talking to Tom at PSA, he is extremely helpful and honest and should give you a straight answer on the best sub they offer to pair with an Empire. You will most likely want to start looking at room measurement and potentially EQ to get the most of two different subs.
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post #5 of 22 Old 02-02-2013, 01:02 PM
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I'd recommend just waiting for another matching Empire. Most guys I know, including myself, that have tried to mix subs end up just liking one set or the other better when played solely.

often there is a gain in output but loss in sound quality when mixing designs. Especially ported and sealed.

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post #6 of 22 Old 02-02-2013, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't have an issue with running 2 different subs its just that i'm primarily interested a sub that would be similar in output and extension. Two empires would be ideal because i could stack them, and maybe one day run 4 of them smile.gif Plus i like the look of having the same subs, which is obviously something i could get over lol.
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post #7 of 22 Old 02-04-2013, 04:33 AM
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Unless you can get another Empire, check this sub shootout:http://www.avsforum.com/t/1313176/shootout-epik-empire-vs-hsu-vtf-15h-vs-cht-cs18-1-vs-rythmik-fv15-vs-ed-a7s-450. Rythmik is a nice sub in this shootout that would mate well with the Empire.

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post #8 of 22 Old 02-06-2013, 07:57 PM
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Was just looking (online) at the PSA XS30....looks nice. http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x/products/xs30

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post #9 of 22 Old 05-29-2013, 10:36 AM
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I'm in the same boat. I have a single Empire that I purchased with plans to add a second one down the road. Now that option is off the table, so I am trying to pick a second sub that would allow me salvage my investment in the Empire.

HSU used to sell a "mid-bass module" that was intended to be placed near field, and coupled with a larger sub to handle the lower frequencies. I was wondering whether I could use the Empire (touted for its mid bass performance) in a similar manner, or whether that would just be a waste of a decent sub? Currently I have the Empire placed in the front left corner of the room, but could relocate directly next to the seating area. Then I could add a new sub to where the Empire now sits. I'm not sure exactly how you would "split" the bass frequencies between the two subs, as I believe the crossover for the Epik acts as a low pass filter, and so I am not sure how you would limit it to mid-bass duties. I guess you could use an in-line filter on the Empire to limit the lower frequencies, but don't know if that would cause any problems with Audessy (I am currently running MultEQ 32). Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. I may just have to bite the bullet and get a new sub, knowing that it may replace rather than supplement the Empire.

Incidentally, if anyone in the central or SW Florida area wants to either buy or sell a single empire, I would be more than happy to either double down on a second empire or sell my existing one and start from scratch. Just PM me with any interest.
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post #10 of 22 Old 05-29-2013, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treads View Post

I'm in the same boat. I have a single Empire that I purchased with plans to add a second one down the road. Now that option is off the table, so I am trying to pick a second sub that would allow me salvage my investment in the Empire.

HSU used to sell a "mid-bass module" that was intended to be placed near field, and coupled with a larger sub to handle the lower frequencies. I was wondering whether I could use the Empire (touted for its mid bass performance) in a similar manner, or whether that would just be a waste of a decent sub? Currently I have the Empire placed in the front left corner of the room, but could relocate directly next to the seating area. Then I could add a new sub to where the Empire now sits. I'm not sure exactly how you would "split" the bass frequencies between the two subs, as I believe the crossover for the Epik acts as a low pass filter, and so I am not sure how you would limit it to mid-bass duties. I guess you could use an in-line filter on the Empire to limit the lower frequencies, but don't know if that would cause any problems with Audessy (I am currently running MultEQ 32). Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. I may just have to bite the bullet and get a new sub, knowing that it may replace rather than supplement the Empire.

Incidentally, if anyone in the central or SW Florida area wants to either buy or sell a single empire, I would be more than happy to either double down on a second empire or sell my existing one and start from scratch. Just PM me with any interest.

There are external EQ options such as the minDSP that can be used to apply a high pass filter to the Empire if you decide to use it for only mid bass. You can also try an in-line filter like you say but I've read they can impact sound quality. You could then set the low pass filter on the new sub to pick up at the frequency where the Empire ends or have them overlap and both cover mid bass. Not sure how this would impact Audyssey but think you'd be OK; that said, I don't think I'd try it without the ability to measure the results.

I have an Empire and Legend that I've used together and recently added 2 DIY Dayton 18" subs to my room and use all 4 together. I have the Epik gains set around 1/4 and have the subs placed along the side and rear of my room to fill nulls. Similar to what you're thinking, I considered adding a HPF to at least the Legend but ended up not doing so. I'm very happy with the sound of all 4 together. If you're up for DIY, I'd recommend it.... best thing I've done in my home theater room. If I lived in Florida, I'd gladly sell you my Epik and use the funds to replace it with another 1-2 Daytons. Before deciding to go the DIY route, I considered adding a PSA sub - they seem to be the closest to the Empire from what I could tell; again, very glad I went DIY though.
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post #11 of 22 Old 05-29-2013, 01:48 PM
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psa xs30 is the closest match to the empire.
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post #12 of 22 Old 05-29-2013, 02:09 PM
 
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Whoa, thanks to treads for bumping this thread. I'm in a similar boat (though can't afford to add one in the near-term). And another good recommend from loveinthehd! Anyone have their Empire paired with a PSA XS30?
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post #13 of 22 Old 05-29-2013, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treads View Post

I'm in the same boat. I have a single Empire that I purchased with plans to add a second one down the road. Now that option is off the table, so I am trying to pick a second sub that would allow me salvage my investment in the Empire.

HSU used to sell a "mid-bass module" that was intended to be placed near field, and coupled with a larger sub to handle the lower frequencies. I was wondering whether I could use the Empire (touted for its mid bass performance) in a similar manner, or whether that would just be a waste of a decent sub? Currently I have the Empire placed in the front left corner of the room, but could relocate directly next to the seating area. Then I could add a new sub to where the Empire now sits. I'm not sure exactly how you would "split" the bass frequencies between the two subs, as I believe the crossover for the Epik acts as a low pass filter, and so I am not sure how you would limit it to mid-bass duties. I guess you could use an in-line filter on the Empire to limit the lower frequencies, but don't know if that would cause any problems with Audessy (I am currently running MultEQ 32). Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. I may just have to bite the bullet and get a new sub, knowing that it may replace rather than supplement the Empire.

Incidentally, if anyone in the central or SW Florida area wants to either buy or sell a single empire, I would be more than happy to either double down on a second empire or sell my existing one and start from scratch. Just PM me with any interest.

I would try something like using the Empire as a mid bass module. It's mid bass output is very good and its upper bass output is incredible, almost like a PA subwoofer. You would want to pair it up with something with very good deep bass output. Here is where an SVS sub might come in handy, their upper bass and mid bass is not very good but their deep bass is very good. I might look at a PC12-Plus, which I think is the value leader in SVS's line up. Another sub with terrific deep bass is the VTF3 mk4, you might look at getting a pair of those, great bass all the way down to 16 hz. Anyway I would look at how Hsu MBM-12's are setup for tips on how to set the Empire up as a MBM, you might check out the manual for the MBM which is at its product page at Hsu.
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post #14 of 22 Old 05-29-2013, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Whoa, thanks to treads for bumping this thread. I'm in a similar boat (though can't afford to add one in the near-term). And another good recommend from loveinthehd! Anyone have their Empire paired with a PSA XS30?

Am thinking about it still.....or maybe even something like this http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-766 or one of the dual opposed kits from diysoundgroup.com (altho it looks like they're not available at the moment) http://www.diysoundgroup.com/subwoofer-flatpacks-2.html

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post #15 of 22 Old 05-29-2013, 03:38 PM
 
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^That's the most economical (and fun) way to do it, and it seems to have worked well for benunc (albeit in an 18" configuration eek.gif ).
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post #16 of 22 Old 05-29-2013, 05:43 PM
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I did have a Empire and PSA XS-30 at the same time, both are great, the sound quality is almost the same, i couldnt tell the difference at first, but after a little while i did, i would have to say the XS-30 sounds a little better, and dug a bit deeper, but the Empire has more upper bass, it made the chair vibrate more, but this is not saying that the XS-30 doesnt, i believe they are a good match but i wouldnt recomend using 2 different subs, unfortunitly i brought back the XS-30 and got dual XV-30's.biggrin.gif

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post #17 of 22 Old 05-29-2013, 05:46 PM
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Also there is someone selling dual Epik Legends on the Emotiva forum, if you stacked them they would equal the output of a single Empire.

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post #18 of 22 Old 05-29-2013, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshjp View Post

I did have a Empire and PSA XS-30 at the same time, both are great, the sound quality is almost the same, i couldnt tell the difference at first, but after a little while i did, i would have to say the XS-30 sounds a little better, and dug a bit deeper, but the Empire has more upper bass, it made the chair vibrate more, but this is not saying that the XS-30 doesnt, i believe they are a good match but i wouldnt recomend using 2 different subs, unfortunitly i brought back the XS-30 and got dual XV-30's.biggrin.gif

so how are you liking the dual xv30's? You have not really posted since recieving them...
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post #19 of 22 Old 05-29-2013, 09:36 PM
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Sorry about that,they are good, they definitely have more bass below 30Hz, but don't have the mid-bass as the Empire's, but i knew that before purchasing, i do miss the mid-bass but i have to get over that, as its hard to beat the Empires in that area, especially for the price. I did get the drivers to make some weird sounds when listening to music, it was only 104DB, and i know the song wasn't super deep.

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post #20 of 22 Old 05-29-2013, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Joshjp View Post

Sorry about that,they are good, they definitely have more bass below 30Hz, but don't have the mid-bass as the Empire's, but i knew that before purchasing, i do miss the mid-bass but i have to get over that, as its hard to beat the Empires in that area, especially for the price. I did get the drivers to make some weird sounds when listening to music, it was only 104DB, and i know the song wasn't super deep.

hmm thats odd...does it sound like a resonance or cabinet ring? 104db is low volume for dual xv30's so it cant be port noise or over excursion which I am not sure that is even possible.
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post #21 of 22 Old 05-29-2013, 10:32 PM
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It was coming from the drivers i believe, it definitly wasn't port chuffing, plus i got em on both sides of my tv stand, i get i 6db increase in SPL, and in my room shouldn't be to hard to get 100db.

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post #22 of 22 Old 05-29-2013, 10:40 PM
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I believe it was just that one song, i played that THX demo after Avatar at Ref level, and i didn't hear any distortion, I've never been able to play that, that loud before, as the Dual Empires would distort like crazy, also if you haven't tried that THX Demo its nuts wink.gif.

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