Going with a new SVS sub. Which model? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 02-06-2013, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm looking to upgrade my circa 2000 Phase Technology Octave Power 10 sub. I'm trying to decide between the SVS SB1000 and PB1000. My AVR is a Denon 1913, mains are Polk Monitor 5's (old too but sound great), center is Polk CS10 and surrounds are OMW3. We use the system solely to watch movies. Our living room is approx 12' x 14'. My only concern with the Phase Tech sub is that it tends to sound boomy and muddy at times, presumably because it only has a 100W amp and is ported. Another thing I've noticed is that due to the small room size sometimes I can "hear" the sub. Meaning I can tell the lows are coming from the sub's location. Because of this I have it sitting between the mains beside the TV to balance the lows better.

I've read many posts about the pros and cons of sealed vs ported and it seems most feel that ported is best for movies. I'm wondering, however, in my case with such a small room would I be better off with the SB1000? Or would the build quality of the PB1000 be such that it would not have these issues? I certainly don't want to end up with less bass but from the specs I would think either of these units would blow my old one away. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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post #2 of 23 Old 02-06-2013, 07:18 PM
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I think you'll like the PB 1000 in that room. I have duals and when i first set them up I only hooked up one and was surprised how musical this sub was but still went deep and some good output in my 16x30x8 room. So I think it will be a nice sub for that room. And it goes to 19hz and probably deeper in your room. The SB1000 is rated to only 23 I think.


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post #3 of 23 Old 02-06-2013, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mario64 View Post

Another thing I've noticed is that due to the small room size sometimes I can "hear" the sub. Meaning I can tell the lows are coming from the sub's location. Because of this I have it sitting between the mains beside the TV to balance the lows better.

What's your crossover set at?
If it's set to high you will be able to "localize" your sub, whether it's ported or not or who makes it.

Given your use is for movies, I would go with the PB as it will dig deeper...

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post #4 of 23 Old 02-06-2013, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the responses. Crossover knob is set at max per Denon Audssey instructions. I believe calibration set it to 120 with all speakers as small
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post #5 of 23 Old 02-06-2013, 08:36 PM
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Best thing you can do is call SVS and describe your room and what you are looking for. They know their product line better than most of us.
I agree with the above posters though with that size room and mostly movies I would focus on the PB-1000 for starters.

I've been playing around with a PB12-NSD for about 3 weeks now. It's in a 3168 cubic foot room that has a large opening that makes a 90 degree
turn into another 1400 cf room. After a couple of moves and a few Audyssey calibrations that single PB12-NSD will shake the walls, floors and couch.
None of the cheap boomy muddy bass, just the good stuff.

I ordered the PB12-Plus today because I want to compare the 2 before I make a decision. The 45 day in home trial period is tough t beat.
1 year full trade up is another big plus.
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post #6 of 23 Old 02-06-2013, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mario64 View Post

Thanks for the responses. Crossover knob is set at max per Denon Audssey instructions. I believe calibration set it to 120 with all speakers as small

Well, as far as I know, the 120Hz setting is one reason why you would be able to "localize" your sub from time to time. The other would be sub/speaker placement + room acoustics.
Try setting the sub XO at 80 and rerun Audyssey.

Have you done a "Sub Crawl"?

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Originally Posted by DanL View Post

Best thing you can do is call SVS and describe your room and what you are looking for. They know their product line better than most of us.
I agree with the above posters though with that size room and mostly movies I would focus on the PB-1000 for starters.

I've been playing around with a PB12-NSD for about 3 weeks now. It's in a 3168 cubic foot room that has a large opening that makes a 90 degree
turn into another 1400 cf room. After a couple of moves and a few Audyssey calibrations that single PB12-NSD will shake the walls, floors and couch.
None of the cheap boomy muddy bass, just the good stuff.

I ordered the PB12-Plus today because I want to compare the 2 before I make a decision. The 45 day in home trial period is tough t beat.
1 year full trade up is another big plus.

I was thinking about a PB12-NSD for a while, but I bought a PC12-PLUS instead....Awesome sub....

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post #7 of 23 Old 02-07-2013, 06:32 AM
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I'm really happy with the pb1000. My area is 14' X 23' X 9' ceiling. Open concept into a 13' X 16' X 9' kitchen and 2 open halls into foyer and another hall. Huge in my mind. But the sub fills it and then some. I'm sure it all depends on your expectations.

Just a living room, not a dedicated HT, I'm extremely satisfied with its performance. The best $499 I've ever spent on home audio
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post #8 of 23 Old 02-07-2013, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

Well, as far as I know, the 120Hz setting is one reason why you would be able to "localize" your sub from time to time. The other would be sub/speaker placement + room acoustics.
Try setting the sub XO at 80 and rerun Audyssey.
Thanks for the suggestion. Before taking the plunge I'm trying it with sub's crossover knob at 80. I re-ran Audyssey and interestingly it still set the sub's crossover at 120 so I went in and changed it to 80 in the receiver. Also noticed that newegg now has the Klipsch RW-12D for $299. How would that compare with the SVS subs?
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post #9 of 23 Old 02-07-2013, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mario64 View Post

Thanks for the suggestion. Before taking the plunge I'm trying it with sub's crossover knob at 80. I re-ran Audyssey and interestingly it still set the sub's crossover at 120 so I went in and changed it to 80 in the receiver. Also noticed that newegg now has the Klipsch RW-12D for $299. How would that compare with the SVS subs?

It doesn't wink.gif

Nashou
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post #10 of 23 Old 02-07-2013, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mario64 View Post

Thanks for the suggestion. Before taking the plunge I'm trying it with sub's crossover knob at 80. I re-ran Audyssey and interestingly it still set the sub's crossover at 120 so I went in and changed it to 80 in the receiver. Also noticed that newegg now has the Klipsch RW-12D for $299. How would that compare with the SVS subs?

If audyssey is setting the crossover at 120Hz, due to speakers, placement, or room acoustics the mains aren't putting out enough below that point at the main listening position for it to set it any lower...Moving the speakers location slightly or changing their angle a bit may change that. Don't lower the AVR's crossover point, and you're probably better off leaving the subs crossover disabled. Changing speaker placement is your best option.

For $299 that is a good sub, however, the SVS PB/SB-1000's are better...But they cost $200 more...

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post #11 of 23 Old 02-07-2013, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by nashou66 View Post

It doesn't wink.gif

Nashou

+1 on that. Right to the point. wink.gif While that might give decent performance in the budget sub price range, brands like SVS, HSU, PSA are in a whole different league.
There are others to, but I just mentioned brands I am familiar with that have subs in the price range you are looking at.
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post #12 of 23 Old 02-08-2013, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, if Audssey is setting my crossover at 120 due to room acoustics I'm wondering if I wouldn't be better off with the SB1000 due to less localization issues.
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post #13 of 23 Old 02-08-2013, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mario64 View Post

Well, if Audssey is setting my crossover at 120 due to room acoustics I'm wondering if I wouldn't be better off with the SB1000 due to less localization issues.

I'm not aware of any difference in how we localize bass frequencies above 80 Hz or whatever based on what cost, kind or size of speaker they are emitted by. Unless of course a lesser sub has higher distortion at your listening levels, which would yield more sound at the localizable frequencies. In the end if you find that you hear sounds as coming "from" the subwoofer rather than as all part of a whole you'll have a decision to make whether to live with the localization or lower the crossover, knowing that you may leave a smallish frequency range in which the sound is slightly lower than it should be, and not fully corrected by Audyssey. FWIW, as long as you can swing it, IMO you'll have greater longer term satisfaction with the SVS, but more because it'll go deeper, louder, flatter in your room rather than differences toward the top of the sub's operating range.
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post #14 of 23 Old 02-08-2013, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by nashou66 View Post

It doesn't wink.gif

Nashou

Bang for the buck the RW-12d is much better, build quality and extension on the PB-1000 is much better. In terms of raw output I wouldn't say the RW-12D would be far behind.

If I had a big room, no brainer grab 2 RW-12D's for $100 more. In a smaller room it's more debatable - i'd still go with the RW-12D because it's 40% less when on sale but if my budget was $500 then maybe the PB-1000.
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post #15 of 23 Old 02-08-2013, 09:19 AM
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Bang for the buck:

https://www.svsound.com/bill-of-rights

5 year unconditional warranty.

45 day trial and return no questions asked

1 year full purchase price upgrade program.

I call that bang for the buck! wink.gif

nashou
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post #16 of 23 Old 02-08-2013, 10:15 AM
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That is awesome and definitely should be factored in
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post #17 of 23 Old 02-09-2013, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

I'm not aware of any difference in how we localize bass frequencies above 80 Hz or whatever based on what cost, kind or size of speaker they are emitted by. Unless of course a lesser sub has higher distortion at your listening levels, which would yield more sound at the localizable frequencies. In the end if you find that you hear sounds as coming "from" the subwoofer rather than as all part of a whole you'll have a decision to make whether to live with the localization or lower the crossover, knowing that you may leave a smallish frequency range in which the sound is slightly lower than it should be, and not fully corrected by Audyssey. FWIW, as long as you can swing it, IMO you'll have greater longer term satisfaction with the SVS, but more because it'll go deeper, louder, flatter in your room rather than differences toward the top of the sub's operating range.
in thinking about it I suspect Audssey may be setting a 120 crossover due to the surrounds as they are only rated to 100. My mains and center can easily go below 80
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post #18 of 23 Old 02-09-2013, 08:33 AM
 
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Polk Monitor 5

Sadly, in my opinion, part of the setting problem lies in the Polk, Monitor 5's themselves as they're -3dB at 43Hz.

A suggestion, set your sub's high pass filter (limit potentiometer) to 120Hz and for the mains, set your internal AVR's low pass filter (LPF) to 80Hz as a way of dealing with the limitations of both the mains and the subwoofer. As to your surrounds, I'd set those to 80Hz also and yes, this will create a 20Hz hole but if you set the surround LPF to 100Hz, you'll introduce localization issues. If you're ready to jump into this hobby whole hog, consider upgrading all the speakers as 100Hz @ -3dB for the surrounds, is going be a challenging obstacle to overcome due to aforementioned localization issues.

Is your listening venue a room that's closed off (sealed) or a room that's open to kitchen, hallway, dining room or all three? My understanding, it's a sealed body subwoofer for a sealed room and ported body for an open room; both will rock the joint. Personally, I'd go with a pair of RW-12d's over a single PB-1000 or SB-1000 but in the same vein, even in a room of your size, if a budding bass-head, you'd be better served by a pair of 1000's. The choice depending on if your room is open or sealed as both will give you excellent playback characteristics.

Allow me to encourage you to obtain room analyzing capability because without this tool, everything you do will be guessing. Just saying.

-
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post #19 of 23 Old 02-09-2013, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Polk Monitor 5

Sadly, in my opinion, part of the setting problem lies in the Polk, Monitor 5's themselves as they're -3dB at 43Hz.

A suggestion, set your sub's high pass filter (limit potentiometer) to 120Hz and for the mains, set your internal AVR's low pass filter (LPF) to 80Hz as a way of dealing with the limitations of both the mains and the subwoofer. As to your surrounds, I'd set those to 80Hz also and yes, this will create a 20Hz hole but if you set the surround LPF to 100Hz, you'll introduce localization issues. If you're ready to jump into this hobby whole hog, consider upgrading all the speakers as 100Hz @ -3dB for the surrounds, is going be a challenging obstacle to overcome due to aforementioned localization issues.

Is your listening venue a room that's closed off (sealed) or a room that's open to kitchen, hallway, dining room or all three? My understanding, it's a sealed body subwoofer for a sealed room and ported body for an open room; both will rock the joint. Personally, I'd go with a pair of RW-12d's over a single PB-1000 or SB-1000 but in the same vein, even in a room of your size, if a budding bass-head, you'd be better served by a pair of 1000's. The choice depending on if your room is open or sealed as both will give you excellent playback characteristics.

Allow me to encourage you to obtain room analyzing capability because without this tool, everything you do will be guessing. Just saying.

-

Just a couple clarifications because some of the terms are used incorrectly. First, I would suggest not using the term limit potentiometer. I have never seen anyone else but you use this term and it can be confusing. Second, just to be clear a low pass filter allows the frequencies below the cutoff frequency to pass through and filters out the frequencies above, and a high pass filter does the opposite. A crossover is a combination of a low pass filter for the low frequency driver and a high pass filter for the high frequency driver.

Now back to your advice. The sub does not have a high pass filter in the way you are describing and some subs don't have a high pass filter at all. Some are slightly different, but in general, subs have a low pass filter or crossover setting that sets the low pass filter frequency for the input (RCA, XLR, etc) and sets the high pass filter frequency for the speaker level outputs. If the sub does not have speaker level outputs or you are not using them, the HPF is not relevant. For your advice for the AVR, there is no specific LPF setting for the mains or surrounds. The majority of AVRs either have a global crossover setting, which sets the same crossover frequency for all speakers, or advanced / individual crossover frequencies which allows you to set separate frequencies for each speaker (front, center, surround, etc.) Some newer AVRs also have a LPF of LFE which has nothing to do with any specific speaker. It sets a LPF on the LFE channel itself in multi channel mixes. So he would want to set the crossover for the fronts and surrounds not the LPF. As I already posted, I know a crossover contains an LPF, but I would not use this term because someone may look for the LPF setting in their AVR and not find it or incorrectly use the LPF of LFE.

For the OPs specific case, if Audyssey sets the surround crossover to 120hz, I would first leave it there. It is normally recommended to not lower a crossover below Audyssey's setting. By setting a crossover lower then the audyssey setting, you may be sending bass to the speaker it can't handle and you will have little or no Audyssey correction below that point. If you do not get any localization issues with the sub, leave it there. If you start having localization issues with the sub, lower it to 80hz and see if they go away. Then listen to see if the surrounds are being over driven. For the mains, I would agree with setting the crossover to 80hz. For the sub itself, there shouldn't be a difference in localization between the SB1000 and PB1000, but there is a difference in FR and max output so you should choose based on your room and listening habits. The best suggestion is to give SVS a call and discuss your situation. SVS or any other ID company should be able to help you pick the best sub for your personal situation.

-Mike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RastaManMax View Post

Bang for the buck the RW-12d is much better, build quality and extension on the PB-1000 is much better. In terms of raw output I wouldn't say the RW-12D would be far behind.

If I had a big room, no brainer grab 2 RW-12D's for $100 more. In a smaller room it's more debatable - i'd still go with the RW-12D because it's 40% less when on sale but if my budget was $500 then maybe the PB-1000.
RW-12 is only great cause of the $300 shipped price. If it was in the $500-$600 range nobody would even touch it. Just cause there are alot more better subs. Don't get me wrong it has great bass i have heard it in person. But owning an outlaw sub and now svs sub. 2 different worlds of sub.
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post #21 of 23 Old 02-09-2013, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RastaManMax View Post

Bang for the buck the RW-12d is much better, build quality and extension on the PB-1000 is much better. In terms of raw output I wouldn't say the RW-12D would be far behind.

If I had a big room, no brainer grab 2 RW-12D's for $100 more. In a smaller room it's more debatable - i'd still go with the RW-12D because it's 40% less when on sale but if my budget was $500 then maybe the PB-1000.
RW-12 is only great cause of the $300 shipped price. If it was in the $500-$600 range nobody would even touch it. Just cause there are alot more better subs. Don't get me wrong it has great bass i have heard it in person. But owning an outlaw sub and now svs sub. 2 different worlds of sub.

RastaManMax,

RW-12D would have more output than a SVS PB1000

Joe,

If you didn't hear the RW-12D in the same room as your SVS and Outlaw, then you don't have much of a comparison. A room size, unique room gain, variance in sub setup, levels, EQ points etc - make a large difference in your perception. It was reviewed here directly against great ID subs that cost $700 - $900 including SVS, HSU, Outlaw, and Velodyne and placed midpack.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/shootout-five-mid-price-subwoofers

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post #22 of 23 Old 02-09-2013, 01:01 PM
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RastaManMax,

RW-12D would have more output than a SVS PB1000

Joe,

If you didn't hear the RW-12D in the same room as your SVS and Outlaw, then you don't have much of a comparison. A room size, unique room gain, variance in sub setup, levels, EQ points etc - make a large difference in your perception. It was reviewed here directly against great ID subs that cost $700 - $900 including SVS, HSU, Outlaw, and Velodyne and placed midpack.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/shootout-five-mid-price-subwoofers

+1

The RW-12d has more overall output than the PB1000 above 25-30hz and has decent Sound quality for the money. My only knock against the RW12d compared tot subs such as the SVS is that it is not quite as tight sounding with music (even compared to the budget Lava LSP12) and deep bass extension below 25hz will favor the SVS too. That said its really hard to beat the Klipsch when on sale.
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post #23 of 23 Old 02-09-2013, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

For the OPs specific case, if Audyssey sets the surround crossover to 120hz, I would first leave it there. It is normally recommended to not lower a crossover below Audyssey's setting. By setting a crossover lower then the audyssey setting, you may be sending bass to the speaker it can't handle and you will have little or no Audyssey correction below that point. If you do not get any localization issues with the sub, leave it there. If you start having localization issues with the sub, lower it to 80hz and see if they go away. Then listen to see if the surrounds are being over driven. For the mains, I would agree with setting the crossover to 80hz. For the sub itself, there shouldn't be a difference in localization between the SB1000 and PB1000, but there is a difference in FR and max output so you should choose based on your room and listening habits. The best suggestion is to give SVS a call and discuss your situation. SVS or any other ID company should be able to help you pick the best sub for your personal situation.

This sums up what I was trying to get at...just not this well...

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