Official SVS SB-13 Ultra Thread - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 321 Old 03-27-2014, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cchunter View Post

Well I also pondered that same exact question when I was looking at subs. Here's how it went down for me. I thought two PB12 NSD's or one SB13 Ultra or one PB12 Plus. I also had ported subs in the past so I was quite familiar with there port chuffing when pushing them hard and that noise really bugged me to say the least. I read countless reviews on the SB13 Ultra and was very impressed. I knew that two subs would even out the bass response throughout the room but I also wanted a smaller sub and two PB12 NSD's would need alot of room. I finally came to the decision that the SB13 Ultra would be perfect and I planned on getting one more down the road to even out the bass in my room. I also didn't want to worry about not having enough headroom so again the Ultra was in my favor. Trust me the SB13 is so smooth and detailed even when pushed extremely hard. It may not have the output like the bigger ported but I knew one more down the road would be just right. I've had the Ultra for about 4 months now and it still impresses me with music and movies. It is the backbone of my system hands down. Best decision I ever made when it came to my setup. I wait patiently for the funds to get one more but I am totally satisfied with having just one. Oh yea back to your question. I believe one SB13 beats out two SB12 NSD's. Good luck on your decision!

Cchunter,

Thanks for the help, I haven't owned any really good subs before, but I figured SVS would be a great start. And from all the reviews including this forum, I hope this is the best place to start. So SB13 ultra it is. I will let you know if and when I get it. Thanks again.
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post #242 of 321 Old 05-22-2014, 04:39 PM
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I'm looking for some advice. I'm ready to pull the trigger on the SB13. I'm in the middle of a spending spree and want to finish my system before the reality of all this $ hits me! I just bought the PSB Synchrony One 5 speaker set and want to match it with the SB13. I'm new to higher-end audio and am already kicking myself for not wiring for more than one sub while I had the walls open. My question is really 2-fold.

1- How much do you really gain from having dual subs in the same set-up? I've heard mostly positive things about this, but the room is not huge (15x23) and the pair of synchrony one towers can get down pretty low themselves (apparently as low as 30-33Hz). Do you think considering my room dimensions and the bass capabilities of my towers I should be fine with 1 SB13?

2- Assuming most think I really should go for 2 SB13s instead (or that I want a 2nd down the road), would it be ok to have one wired via RCA and another wireless? I see SVS also sells a wireless kit from Dayton Audio. Has anyone had any experience with this? Do you lose anything performance-wise?

My only experience with SWs to this point was with a cheap Boston Acoustic that was part of a entry-level HTIB and a 100 watt Pioneer that replaced the BA after it's amp blew. Any advice or feedback is appreciated.

Also this is cut and paste from the PSB Synchrony spec sheet:



Can anyone explain what these numbers mean? Particularly the bottom line about LF cutoff? TIA
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post #243 of 321 Old 05-22-2014, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jenglish13 View Post

I'm looking for some advice. I'm ready to pull the trigger on the SB13. I'm in the middle of a spending spree and want to finish my system before the reality of all this $ hits me! I just bought the PSB Synchrony One 5 speaker set and want to match it with the SB13. I'm new to higher-end audio and am already kicking myself for not wiring for more than one sub while I had the walls open. My question is really 2-fold.

1- How much do you really gain from having dual subs in the same set-up? I've heard mostly positive things about this, but the room is not huge (15x23) and the pair of synchrony one towers can get down pretty low themselves (apparently as low as 30-33Hz). Do you think considering my room dimensions and the bass capabilities of my towers I should be fine with 1 SB13?

2- Assuming most think I really should go for 2 SB13s instead (or that I want a 2nd down the road), would it be ok to have one wired via RCA and another wireless? I see SVS also sells a wireless kit from Dayton Audio. Has anyone had any experience with this? Do you lose anything performance-wise?

My only experience with SWs to this point was with a cheap Boston Acoustic that was part of a entry-level HTIB and a 100 watt Pioneer that replaced the BA after it's amp blew. Any advice or feedback is appreciated.

Also this is cut and paste from the PSB Synchrony spec sheet:



Can anyone explain what these numbers mean? Particularly the bottom line about LF cutoff? TIA

If you have the space for two, and some placement flexibility, it is really hard to go wrong with 2... I tried two SB2000, but was so constrained with placement of the second sub that it did not produce a better response than a single (not significantly so anyway), and I ended up returning them in favor of a single SB13U. very happy now. I was in the same situation as you regarding wiring and believe the wireless kit is a great option... worked well for me and the sub just needs a power outlet, no worries about where the signal cable goes. I say go for it if you've got the wallet/stomach... can always return the second if it's not doing it for you.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
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I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #244 of 321 Old 05-28-2014, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by dougri View Post

If you have the space for two, and some placement flexibility, it is really hard to go wrong with 2... I tried two SB2000, but was so constrained with placement of the second sub that it did not produce a better response than a single (not significantly so anyway), and I ended up returning them in favor of a single SB13U. very happy now. I was in the same situation as you regarding wiring and believe the wireless kit is a great option... worked well for me and the sub just needs a power outlet, no worries about where the signal cable goes. I say go for it if you've got the wallet/stomach... can always return the second if it's not doing it for you.

Thanks Dougri, I think I will be adding a 2nd sub in the not too distant future. I'm gonna have to start with a single though...was told I was pushing my luck with the wife when I explained that her furniture was getting in the way of the gear! What do you all do as far as power goes? Do you plug the subs direct to the wall or do you use some layer of surge protection/conditioning?
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post #245 of 321 Old 05-30-2014, 10:08 PM
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Now regarding your answer question on th meaning of the LF cutoff at 24Hz.... your speakers have a -3dB point at 30Hz and rapidly fall off after that such that they are -10dB down at 24Hz. The reference level for these frequency response(FR) measurements is probably 75dB. At higher levels, the FR is narrowed where the low cutoff is increased to say 50 or 60Hz or even higher. So a subwoofer or two is necessary to releave stress from the mains.

 

I have new dual SB13U in my room and they sound great after i time-aligned them. My MartinLogan speakers have a 30Hz-25kHz response, similar to yours but i can tell you that they need help from the dual SB13U subs when playing at decent and realistic listening levels. I (my room correction system) cross the speakers at 60Hz and the subs at 120Hz.


How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #246 of 321 Old 05-30-2014, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jenglish13 View Post

1- How much do you really gain from having dual subs in the same set-up? I've heard mostly positive things about this, but the room is not huge (15x23) and the pair of synchrony one towers can get down pretty low themselves (apparently as low as 30-33Hz). Do you think considering my room dimensions and the bass capabilities of my towers I should be fine with 1 SB13?

From your post, I'm not really certain what you are using the sub for. Music? Movies? Both?

My room size is similar to yours, except I have cathedral ceilings and that room has openings to other rooms (I estimate mine at around 3,500 cu. ft.). I use my SB13-Ultra for music only and have a pair of Maggies that have a similar low end (around 34 Hz). One SB13-Ultra does precisely what I was hoping it would do and nothing more. I run my Maggies full range and have the sub's lowpass filter set at 40 Hz. I simply didn't want the SB13 to take over the bass. I want to hear my Maggies low end, but want the sub to reproduce only what my Maggies can't. You may think otherwise in your system.

All that being said, two is always better than one, but there is a point of diminishing returns (money vs benefit). Try out the single SB13 and it will tell you if it's enough or not. I suspect it will be if you're primarily interested in music.
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post #247 of 321 Old 05-31-2014, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

From your post, I'm not really certain what you are using the sub for. Music? Movies? Both?

My room size is similar to yours, except I have cathedral ceilings and that room has openings to other rooms (I estimate mine at around 3,500 cu. ft.). I use my SB13-Ultra for music only and have a pair of Maggies that have a similar low end (around 34 Hz). One SB13-Ultra does precisely what I was hoping it would do and nothing more. I run my Maggies full range and have the sub's lowpass filter set at 40 Hz. I simply didn't want the SB13 to take over the bass. I want to hear my Maggies low end, but want the sub to reproduce only what my Maggies can't. You may think otherwise in your system.

All that being said, two is always better than one, but there is a point of diminishing returns (money vs benefit). Try out the single SB13 and it will tell you if it's enough or not. I suspect it will be if you're primarily interested in music.

That's pretty cool SBU13 can fill a room of that size, music isn't that demanding.

Why don't you use the high pass filter in the SBU13 set it to 40hz?

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post #248 of 321 Old 06-01-2014, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

Now regarding your answer question on th meaning of the LF cutoff at 24Hz.... your speakers have a -3dB point at 30Hz and rapidly fall off after that such that they are -10dB down at 24Hz. The reference level for these frequency response(FR) measurements is probably 75dB. At higher levels, the FR is narrowed where the low cutoff is increased to say 50 or 60Hz or even higher. So a subwoofer or two is necessary to releave stress from the mains.

I have new dual SB13U in my room and they sound great after i time-aligned them. My MartinLogan speakers have a 30Hz-25kHz response, similar to yours but i can tell you that they need help from the dual SB13U subs when playing at decent and realistic listening levels. I (my room correction system) cross the speakers at 60Hz and the subs at 120Hz.

Thanks for the education. So when you see numbers like this, it is always based off some 'reference level' perhaps something like 75dB? I'm surprised there wouldn't be an industry standard reference level for measurements like that. When they give a range like 30 or 33Hz to 20,000 Hz at +/- 3 or 1.5 dB, do those numbers mean what can still be measured or do they mean what can be measured within some acceptable range of distortion?

Out of curiosity, what do you mean when you say you time-aligned your subs? Is that similar to distance measuring through Audyssey? Sorry for what i assume are very basic questions. Have to start somewhere.
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post #249 of 321 Old 06-01-2014, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

From your post, I'm not really certain what you are using the sub for. Music? Movies? Both?

My room size is similar to yours, except I have cathedral ceilings and that room has openings to other rooms (I estimate mine at around 3,500 cu. ft.). I use my SB13-Ultra for music only and have a pair of Maggies that have a similar low end (around 34 Hz). One SB13-Ultra does precisely what I was hoping it would do and nothing more. I run my Maggies full range and have the sub's lowpass filter set at 40 Hz. I simply didn't want the SB13 to take over the bass. I want to hear my Maggies low end, but want the sub to reproduce only what my Maggies can't. You may think otherwise in your system.

All that being said, two is always better than one, but there is a point of diminishing returns (money vs benefit). Try out the single SB13 and it will tell you if it's enough or not. I suspect it will be if you're primarily interested in music.

I used to be about 80/20 movies/music, but after hearing these new towers, I think that number is going to move more towards 65/35. I estimated my cubic feet to be around 2,700, but the main listening area is essentially 11x11 square within the larger room. I'm definitely gonna start with one and see how it does. I may be able to figure out a spot for second but it would have to be wireless. Anyway thanks for everyone's feedback and help. Apparently my SB13 ships tomorrow. I'm sure I'll have more questions re: tuning and placement and crossover when I get it.
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post #250 of 321 Old 06-01-2014, 06:03 PM
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Sounds like you're set. Congratulations! We all want to know your impressions once you've set it up and have it running.
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post #251 of 321 Old 06-01-2014, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jenglish13 View Post

Thanks for the education. So when you see numbers like this, it is always based off some 'reference level' perhaps something like 75dB? I'm surprised there wouldn't be an industry standard reference level for measurements like that. When they give a range like 30 or 33Hz to 20,000 Hz at +/- 3 or 1.5 dB, do those numbers mean what can still be measured or do they mean what can be measured within some acceptable range of distortion?

Out of curiosity, what do you mean when you say you time-aligned your subs? Is that similar to distance measuring through Audyssey? Sorry for what i assume are very basic questions. Have to start somewhere.

 

jenglish ... i need to make a retraction to what i said earlier after looking at loudspeaker measurements from some prominent audio magazines.

 

1.  Loudspeaker frequency response(FR) measurements are made by injecting a 2.83V signal into the speaker input to approximate a 1W output to the loudspeaker assuming it has an 8 ohm load. The output SPL(speaker loudness level) this voltage input presents is known as the sensitivity spec of the speaker and that's the level used to calculate the speakers frequency response. So your 30Hz - 20kHz spec was measured at your speakers sensitivity level. I don't recall it was listed.

 

Distortion levels are also measured and specified at this point as well. Others, especially for subwoofers are measured by increasing the woofer output until its distortion reaches 10%, the maximum level before auduble woofer distortion is heard.

 

2.  Time-alignment ensures the bass wavefronts of each from the multiple subs arrive to the listener at the same time(get it;)) so that they appear to play as 1 unified subwoofer to the listener. This is done by adjusting the phase and amplitude of one sub with respect to the other to ensure the best combined frequency response from both subs. This means the flattest, deepest and widest response possible from the combination of your subs and their placement in the room.

 

Time/Phase Alignment is very critical to ensure proper midbass and low-end imaging and also prevents both subs from cancelling out each other's effects.

 

I use the sadly discontined SVS AS-EQ1 subwoofer management system but to my knowledge, its the only system on the market that does this job so well. It computes its DSP coefficients and outputs a frequency response graph plus a subwoofer distance number that you input into your processor's speaker distance menu. Please refer to the attachment that shows the FR before and after time-alignment from my dual SB13-ultras.

 

SubEQ1Certificate.pdf 158k .pdf file

 

You may refer to my SIG for future reference if you're interested. Hopefully i haven't turned you off by now:D...

Attached Files
File Type: pdf SubEQ1Certificate.pdf (158.4 KB, 41 views)

How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #252 of 321 Old 06-02-2014, 05:36 AM
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Everything I see those AS-EQ1 "after" graphs they always make me chuckle. smile.gif

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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post #253 of 321 Old 06-02-2014, 09:21 AM
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Everything I see those AS-EQ1 "after" graphs they always make me chuckle. smile.gif

Please elaborate.


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post #254 of 321 Old 06-02-2014, 09:53 AM
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The way it's presented. Essentially the smoothing is 1:1 and the graph was designed in such a way that it looks almost like a ruler flat response which I always get a kick out of. If you run a sweep in REW and say use a more traditional 1/6 smoothing (or no smoothing, though that is kind of drastic), you'd get a better picture of what is going on vs what is shown by the AS-EQ1. Not knocking the device, my brother used to have one and it was a great device (simple to use and got the job done, though I guess replaced now by Audyssey's SubEQ or whatever it's called), but the REW sweeps looked very different than the super smooth graph that comes out of that puppy. The PBK kit from Paradigm is pretty much the same though if I recall.

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #255 of 321 Old 06-02-2014, 11:27 AM
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Thanks, I understand your chuckle now.


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post #256 of 321 Old 06-02-2014, 06:56 PM
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PBC is correct and his chuckle is justified. The 'after' plotted curves by the AS-EQ1 are too smooth and somewhat unrealistic. The picture as measured by ARC (Anthem Room Correction) from my D2v processor is shown below:

 

The bandwidth extension is still the same but response (in red) is not flat as the AS-EQ1 indicated. The green-line is the correction that ARC does to what it measures from the EQ1 (in red).


How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #257 of 321 Old 07-07-2014, 04:42 AM
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SB13-Ultra review up at AH for those interested in the measurements:
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer...ltra-subwoofer

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post #258 of 321 Old 07-07-2014, 05:07 AM
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Great review as expected. Not sure about the 3000-5000 large room spec though. It was starting to hit it's limits in my 1700 cubic foot family room. At reference mind you (or maybe - 5).

Though I can't recall how they spec the level. Maybe it is meant at normal volumes. Or for normal people? .
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post #259 of 321 Old 07-07-2014, 06:13 AM
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Don't think I'll need duals with 20 cubic foot room / 710 cubic foot room.

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post #260 of 321 Old 07-07-2014, 06:52 AM
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I'm so torn between the sb13 and the pb12+.

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post #261 of 321 Old 07-07-2014, 07:18 AM
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I'm so torn between the sb13 and the pb12+.
What size room? Music/Movies? I've had SB U13 and PC U13 models. Also PB is massive, the PC is much smaller (in fact takes less floor space up than SB U13)

Gives you an idea.

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post #262 of 321 Old 07-07-2014, 08:30 AM
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My room is what I would call medium-sized, about 17.5'W x 15'D. It has a vaulted ceiling and is very open to other rooms including a two-story foyer. I only have one corner and I can't use it because it has shelves, window and floor vent so any sub placement would NOT be in a corner.
I have NHT VT-2 speakers that are bi-amped via my receiver's sub out run through a Parasound 200Wx2 amp. I get very solid bass down to 30Hz! I listen to 50/50 music and movies at about -10 reference volume.
I like the idea of the SB13 Ultra, just not sure how much sub 30Hz output I would get from it in my room. As for size of the sub, I can fit the PB12+ just fine, actually in my room the only sub I would have a real problem with is the cylinder models.

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post #263 of 321 Old 07-07-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post
Great review as expected. Not sure about the 3000-5000 large room spec though. It was starting to hit it's limits in my 1700 cubic foot family room. At reference mind you (or maybe - 5).

Though I can't recall how they spec the level. Maybe it is meant at normal volumes. Or for normal people? .
Here's a link to their room rating protocol:
http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...ofer-room-size

To hit the large room rating, a sub has to deliver no less than 106dB (2m, RMS) from 31.5Hz-63Hz, and 100dB at 25Hz.
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post #264 of 321 Old 07-07-2014, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post
My room is what I would call medium-sized, about 17.5'W x 15'D. It has a vaulted ceiling and is very open to other rooms including a two-story foyer. I only have one corner and I can't use it because it has shelves, window and floor vent so any sub placement would NOT be in a corner.
I have NHT VT-2 speakers that are bi-amped via my receiver's sub out run through a Parasound 200Wx2 amp. I get very solid bass down to 30Hz! I listen to 50/50 music and movies at about -10 reference volume.
I like the idea of the SB13 Ultra, just not sure how much sub 30Hz output I would get from it in my room. As for size of the sub, I can fit the PB12+ just fine, actually in my room the only sub I would have a real problem with is the cylinder models.

I'd be looking at PB12 Plus, minimum. I think if you wanted SBU13, you'd need two. You could look at duals later.

Or perhaps go whole hog get PB Ultra 13, or maybe two. I do prefer SB for music however you have a huge room. Getting four SB Ultra 13's or dual PB Ultra 13's? Get the PB (or PC)

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post #265 of 321 Old 07-09-2014, 06:04 AM
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Yeah I wasn't sure how low the SB13 would go in my room since it is so open. May not be a huge difference over what I have now. The PB12+ should be VERY noticeable. I would only add a second one after I get new speakers. I wonder what the best way to integrate with my speakers would be?

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post #266 of 321 Old 07-09-2014, 07:58 AM
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Great review as expected. Not sure about the 3000-5000 large room spec though. It was starting to hit it's limits in my 1700 cubic foot family room. At reference mind you (or maybe - 5).

Though I can't recall how they spec the level. Maybe it is meant at normal volumes. Or for normal people? .
It's interesting that he found the sub to start compressing and limiting on the pulse server room scene. I remember reading your review where you had the MV at -5 and you said the sub handled that scene well if I remember correctly. He had his MV at -10.

Either way, I don't listen at anywhere near what some of you guys listen at. The highest I go is -14. I might go to -10 if a movie is mixed properly and tracks to reference correctly like the bluray Oblivion.

When I demoed the sub in my room I couldn't imagine wanting anything more unless I move to a bigger space. My room is around 1600 cubic feet. Maby even a little less. I was getting well over 110db at 20hz and it wasn't even eq'd properly. Too bad I had to send it back.

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post #267 of 321 Old 07-09-2014, 11:06 AM
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I'd have to go back to my notes, but I believe I did here the limiter fluttering (which would likely imply compression at that of point ). . But I have a small room similar to yours and limits as you know are very room dependent.

Eg, with my old PB13 I could play the pulse scene at reference without problem. In Jakemans larger 4k cubed dedicated home theater and the PB13 not corner loaded the sub went into severe audible distress at - 15.
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post #268 of 321 Old 07-09-2014, 11:43 AM
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My room is what I would call medium-sized, about 17.5'W x 15'D. It has a vaulted ceiling and is very open to other rooms including a two-story foyer. I only have one corner and I can't use it because it has shelves, window and floor vent so any sub placement would NOT be in a corner.
I have NHT VT-2 speakers that are bi-amped via my receiver's sub out run through a Parasound 200Wx2 amp. I get very solid bass down to 30Hz! I listen to 50/50 music and movies at about -10 reference volume.
I like the idea of the SB13 Ultra, just not sure how much sub 30Hz output I would get from it in my room. As for size of the sub, I can fit the PB12+ just fine, actually in my room the only sub I would have a real problem with is the cylinder models.
Your room is very similar to mine. I also have cathedral ceilings and it's fairly open (approx 3,500 cu. ft.). Whether the SB13-Ultra will satisfy you depends upon how loud you listen to music and movies. If your preference is at or near reference levels, then you'll need a sub with more output (or think about going for multiples). If, however, your listening habits are like mine (and many here), where peak levels in movies and for music rarely exceed 90 dB, a single SB13-Ultra will perform very well indeed.

It's hard to see from my avatar picture, but my Ultra isn't in a corner either. Matter of fact, it's about a foot from the wall. Why? Once I did the sub-crawl and then did some minor tweaking (moving it a bit in all directions), that ended up being the best position for sound at my seating position. It is important to have more than one position in mind when locating a subwoofer simply because it is the sub itself (and not you) that tells you the best location. If that can't possibly be done, that's when multiple subs come into the picture to help smooth out those terrible room modes.
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post #269 of 321 Old 08-02-2014, 01:20 PM
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Thinking about getting the SB13 Ultra to replace my SB12 NSD in my small bedroom, 13x14. Not sure if it will over power the room or not.

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post #270 of 321 Old 08-02-2014, 01:45 PM
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No, I'm sure your processor has a volume control as does the SB13Ultra. Nice choice btw, it's one of my all time favorites.
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