2 Good Subs > 1 Great Sub for HT? And more questions. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I am trying to throw back to you guys what I learned in reading this and a few other forums ...and see if I got it "right".

Big bada boom bass...that is the stuff below 20 htz...I think. The lower you go below 20 the more "sub-sonic" feeling you get. For HT 10-12 seems to be the ultimate goal and having suffiencent power at 16 seems to be the realistic goal. (I am just throwing my ignorance out there for all to see...and hope you can edumicake me)

When you go with two subs...you can bump up the frequency response of your subs without the localization penality so you get better mid-bass and the subs do not become "visable" in your 5.2 or 7.2 system... Duel subs also evens out the bottom end response levels and there is synergy so you two subs gets you 4x the power of one sub...thus it is normally better (all things being equal) to get two good subs rather than one great sub...if HT is your goal (Not sure if this applies to music?)

Then you have something out there like the mid-bass unit of HSU which you place near field and which is designed slightly differnt... So would a Mid Bass unit and a Sub be greater than two subs? If I have to ...for room layout reasons place two subs near field (behind the coach) rather than in front corners...should I go with sealed vs. ported.

Now on to the sealed vs. ported ... I take it that ported gives you deeper extension so the rumbly lows you want for movies is there. It is less "good" for music which requires "tighter" bass and it is preferred to go higher up into the mid-bass range rather than give up the mid-bass for the deep lows of say a HT?

My budget is about 2k for subs which I think is allot... Since HT is main purpose I understand Sub and Center = 90 percent of my system.

Thanks in advance...you guys have been awesome in helping me. Just trying to repeat back what I think I learned and then start shopping again.
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post #2 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 10:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Thanks in advance...you guys have been awesome in helping me. Just trying to repeat back what I think I learned and then start shopping again.

Good luck with the shopping effort. And don't forget to include the acquisition of room analyzing capabilities as a properly dialed in subwoofer system is quite often good for six to ten dB in volume.
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post #3 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

I am trying to throw back to you guys what I learned in reading this and a few other forums ...and see if I got it "right".

Big bada boom bass...that is the stuff below 20 htz...I think. The lower you go below 20 the more "sub-sonic" feeling you get. For HT 10-12 seems to be the ultimate goal and having suffiencent power at 16 seems to be the realistic goal. (I am just throwing my ignorance out there for all to see...and hope you can edumicake me)

This is all dependent upon the individual. It takes a lot of power and multiple drivers to dig down to 10 hz. There's a difference between 10hz capable, and 10hz capable at reference. .
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When you go with two subs...you can bump up the frequency response of your subs without the localization penality so you get better mid-bass and the subs do not become "visable" in your 5.2 or 7.2 system... Duel subs also evens out the bottom end response levels and there is synergy so you two subs gets you 4x the power of one sub...thus it is normally better (all things being equal) to get two good subs rather than one great sub...if HT is your goal (Not sure if this applies to music?)

No. Dual subs has nothing to do with crossover. This can be debatable, but for HT use, an 80hz crossover is recommended. There is no reason to raise the sub xover any higher than this, unless you are running really crappy mains (sats), that won't play down to 80hz. In that case I would recommend upgrading the front stage before adding another sub anyway. smile.gif

The rule of thumb is doubling of drivers or power nets a 3db increase. You also decrease cone excursion while increasing sensitivity.

The main reason for running multiple subs, notwithstanding the reasoning behind the earlier statement; is to smooth out room response. Multiple subs can smooth out room nodes making for a flat frequency response in more than just one seat. With a single sub I can get a pretty smooth FR in the LP, but move 3 feet over and it goes to hell. This can be combated with multiples, and everyone can enjoy a smooth response.
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Then you have something out there like the mid-bass unit of HSU which you place near field and which is designed slightly differnt... So would a Mid Bass unit and a Sub be greater than two subs? If I have to ...for room layout reasons place two subs near field (behind the coach) rather than in front corners...should I go with sealed vs. ported.

No.
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Now on to the sealed vs. ported ... I take it that ported gives you deeper extension so the rumbly lows you want for movies is there. It is less "good" for music which requires "tighter" bass and it is preferred to go higher up into the mid-bass range rather than give up the mid-bass for the deep lows of say a HT?

No as well. Ported will give you more SPL right around the port tune, but drops off rapidly after that. There is also no air spring to protect the driver once it unloads, hence why all your ported boxes have a hp built into them to protect the driver from over excursion. A sealed can play much lower, but need more eq'ing to offset the natural roll off down low. A shelf filter works great for them. All things being equal, neither sub will be tighter, more musical, etc. Anyone who tells you that is mistaken. If each is designed properly, they will be indistinguishable from a SQ standpoint.
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My budget is about 2k for subs which I think is allot... Since HT is main purpose I understand Sub and Center = 90 percent of my system.

Are you adept at building something, or would you prefer to unbox it, plug it in, and go?
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post #4 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

as a properly dialed in subwoofer system is quite often good for six to ten dB in volume.

Umm, could you expound upon this for me?

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post #5 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 11:12 AM
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Umm, could you expound upon this for me?
You may regret asking. cool.gif

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post #6 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 11:23 AM
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You may regret asking. cool.gif
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post #7 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 11:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Umm, could you expound upon this for me?

Improperly placed or bad use of settings rob room output by three to fifteen dB in varying degrees along a measured frequency curve. With a room analyzing program, one can easily see these peaks, dips, mounds and nulls and one is able to use subwoofer placement and judicious use of parametric settings to bring these sound stealing frequency imperfections into line. Correcting for peaks, dips and nulls will increase measurable volume and personal experience shows this to easily be anywhere from three to ten dB.

Bill, Craig, it's always nice to read that I have your support. tongue.gif
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post #8 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Improperly placed or bad use of settings rob room output by three to fifteen dB in varying degrees along a measured frequency curve. With a room analyzing program, one can easily see these peaks, dips, mounds and nulls and one is able to use subwoofer placement and judicious use of parametric settings to bring these sound stealing frequency imperfections into line. Correcting for peaks, dips and nulls will increase measurable volume and personal experience shows this to easily be anywhere from three to ten dB.

Bill, Craig, it's always nice to read that I have your support. tongue.gif
And what happens if you have a response that is loaded with peaks? In order to flatten them, the EQ will need to use a bunch of cuts. To "normalize" the volume after using a bunch of cuts, you need to RAISE the overall volume to compensate for the cuts performed by the EQ. This is the part you fail to understand in your above response. It's also what you don't understand about using the receiver's on-board test tones and an SPL meter to reset the levels after Audyssey. The Volume Normalization process Audyssey has performed, (in the background), takes into account the boosts and cuts it performs. The receiver's on-board test tones don't go through Audyssey's EQ, so they're not exposed to the boosts and cuts and don't take them into account.

Craig

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post #9 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 12:39 PM
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My budget is about 2k for subs which I think is allot... Since HT is main purpose I understand Sub and Center = 90 percent of my system.

The center is important, but it isn't more important than the left and right fronts. I would rather have good left and rights and a so-so center than a good center and not-so-great left and right fronts.

Something I would disagree with which was said in an above reply is that there is no advantage to having a crossover above 80 hz. There can most certainly be an advantage. Your subwoofer, if it is a good one, is still likely to be a lot more powerful at 80 hz and a bit more higher up than your mains. This is all upper bass. If your subs are positioned right, you can raise the crossover above 80 to get more powerful mid and upper bass without localization penalties. This also saves your mains from having to work as hard, so you get a lower distortion sound from them as well.

If you ask me, 16 hz is a good goal for bass, this is just below the hearing threshold for deep frequencies. 10 iz crazy, you have to have very large subs and a lot of power to get down to 10, and you can't even hear it. It's a lot of money to spend on something that is imperceptible.

As for the mid bass module, I haven't used that specifically, but there are very real benefits from near-field placement, which is what the MBM-12 partly banks on, if you read about its recommended placement. The MBM is an interesting idea, you raise headroom by dividing bandwidth between subs, and this allows you to further optimize headroom by placing the subs where their frequency range is most effective, ie near-field for mid and upper bass but placing the sub elsewhere might be better for deeper frequency response.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to sealed vs ported, it depends on what frequencies you want to put the most emphasis in.
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post #10 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 12:46 PM
 
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This is the part you fail to understand in your above response.

Nothing was missed or misunderstood. A question was asked, an obviously "simple" reply was given and despite your protestations, the response was accurate. Was it complete? Of course not but then again, neither was your retort but there's no point in taking you to task on every one of your errors or omissions.

Personally, we listen to standard broadcast television at much lower master volume levels now that the changes I discussed have been implemented. We use to listen at -25. Then it was -35. Now we're down to -55 to -60.

-
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post #11 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 12:54 PM
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Your room is a huge factor in all of this, and should really help dictate your buying decision. A small sealed room that has carpet, drapes, lots of pillows, etc vs a huge open room with a tile or hardwood floor, etc... What about WAF factor? Do you have the ability to use multiple subwoofer in the room, and are you restricted with regards to placement? What about size restrictions on what size box(s) you can place in the room? You have to consider this first and foremost IMHO before you start buying anything.

Answer these questions first and I think it will really help us point you in the right direction.
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post #12 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 01:10 PM
 
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Answer these questions first and I think it will really help us point you in the right direction.

Which pretty much, is to the road of financial and mental ruin. tongue.gif
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post #13 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 01:11 PM
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Which pretty much, is to the road of financial and mental ruin. tongue.gif

No doubt... The rabbit hole... smile.gif
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post #14 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 01:26 PM
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The center is important, but it isn't more important than the left and right fronts. I would rather have good left and rights and a so-so center than a good center and not-so-great left and right fronts.

Considering 70% of your content plays through the center channel when watching movies, I wouldn't say that is entirely accurate. I actually prefer to hear loud and clear dialog when watching movies, but that's just me. wink.gif
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Something I would disagree with which was said in an above reply is that there is no advantage to having a crossover above 80 hz. There can most certainly be an advantage. Your subwoofer, if it is a good one, is still likely to be a lot more powerful at 80 hz and a bit more higher up than your mains. This is all upper bass. If your subs are positioned right, you can raise the crossover above 80 to get more powerful mid and upper bass without localization penalties. This also saves your mains from having to work as hard, so you get a lower distortion sound from them as well.

Well if you read the entirety of that statement; if your mains are incapable of producing frequencies around 80hz, an additional sub isn't the first thing I'd look into. There are very few instances where I could think of a xover higher than 80hz would be beneficial, or recommended. Unless you're a Bose fan boy.
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If you ask me, 16 hz is a good goal for bass, this is just below the hearing threshold for deep frequencies. 10 iz crazy, you have to have very large subs and a lot of power to get down to 10, and you can't even hear it. It's a lot of money to spend on something that is imperceptible.

Have you experienced a setup capable of single digit reference LFE? I'd hardly say it's a waste of money. And last time I checked, feeling LFE fell into the category of perceptible. wink.gif

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post #15 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 01:35 PM
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Considering 70% of your content plays through the center channel when watching movies, I wouldn't say that is entirely accurate. I actually prefer to hear loud and clear dialog when watching movies, but that's just me.
+1. For general TV I'd guess it's closer to 90% center, 10% mains. My L/R have a bit more capacity than my center, as when they do kick in during a movie they kick in hard, but most of the time they're loafing along some 20dB down from the center level.
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There are very few instances where I could think of a xover higher than 80hz would be beneficial, or recommended
MKtheater gets away with 150Hz or so, but he can do it because he has a wall of subs across the room front. But that was a month or two ago, he may have something totally different by now.

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post #16 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 02:29 PM
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Considering 70% of your content plays through the center channel when watching movies, I wouldn't say that is entirely accurate. I actually prefer to hear loud and clear dialog when watching movies, but that's just me. wink.gif

The music is coming from the left and rights. Also, you can use a phantom center, but you can't fake a left and right. Regardless, you do not want any of your front stage speakers to be very different from each other.
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Well if you read the entirety of that statement; if your mains are incapable of producing frequencies around 80hz, an additional sub isn't the first thing I'd look into. There are very few instances where I could think of a xover higher than 80hz would be beneficial, or recommended. Unless you're a Bose fan boy.
Have you experienced a setup capable of single digit reference LFE? I'd hardly say it's a waste of money. And last time I checked, feeling LFE fell into the category of perceptible. wink.gif

Like I said, the sub is probably going to be hitting a lot harder in the regions right above 80 hz than your mains can. There is a good reason. The only reason I can think of not to do it is the stereo imaging might suffer just a little bit, depending on your setup, but I'll take the extra headroom.
As for reference at single digit frequencies, for the vast majority of people it is a total waste of money. Who wants to spend many thousands of dollars and the huge amount of floorspace for the what, 5, maybe 6 (awful) movies that actually have content in that area? How loud does single digit output have to be to perceive it, and not just ancillary effects, such as vibrating objects, harmonic distortion, and most of all your imagination?
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post #17 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 02:51 PM
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The music is coming from the left and rights. Also, you can use a phantom center, but you can't fake a left and right. Regardless, you do not want any of your front stage speakers to be very different from each other.

Read his original post.
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Since HT is main purpose I understand Sub and Center = 90 percent of my system.

Let's give up dialog for music when watching a movie. cool.gif
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Like I said, the sub is probably going to be hitting a lot harder in the regions right above 80 hz than your mains can. There is a good reason. The only reason I can think of not to do it is the stereo imaging might suffer just a little bit, depending on your setup, but I'll take the extra headroom.

Extra headroom? We're not talking about 20hz here. I'll say it again. If your mains are that weak at 80hz, you should be looking into another upgrade first. As Bill pointed out, there are few setups that lend well to a higher xover due to localization, imaging, etc. If you prefer that direction then great; but recommending that as the rule is not good advice.
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As for reference at single digit frequencies, for the vast majority of people it is a total waste of money. Who wants to spend many thousands of dollars and the huge amount of floorspace for the what, 5, maybe 6 (awful) movies that actually have content in that area? How loud does single digit output have to be to perceive it, and not just ancillary effects, such as vibrating objects, harmonic distortion, and most of all your imagination?

5 or 6 awful movies? LOL, that just shows how naive you are. There are a ton of great movies out there featuring content into low teens to single digits. In fact, you probably have watched a few and never realized it as you don't have a system capable of reproducing it. You are probably one who won't bat an eye on a 2k store bought subwoofer, yet argue about the cost of reproducing LFE as the director intended. You're statement can be argued for anything in HT. Why spend thousands on HT chairs when a simple couch will suffice? Why spend thousand on a HT projector when a 32 tube TV will work? Why spend thousands on a capable speaker setup when a HTIB will accomplish a lot of the same effect?

Why don't you go sit in Gorillas or Notnyts HT and tell me if it's your imagination that is lending to your experience. wink.gif

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post #18 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 03:55 PM
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Your recommending the OP get an imbalanced front stage? Your suggesting the OP chase after infrasonics on a $2k subwoofer budget? Also, many people's mains are not terribly powerful at 80 hz, especially if you have bookshelf speakers. The OP is contemplating buying bookshelf speakers and multiple subs, his system would be a great candidate for a higher crossover. I am arguing for a balanced approach. Home theater sound is definitely not 90% weighted toward the center and sub, and movie soundtracks are a lot more than merely dialogue and explosions. Well, at least the movies I like.
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post #19 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

as a properly dialed in subwoofer system is quite often good for six to ten dB in volume.

Umm, could you expound upon this for me?

Noooo. /sigh you had to ask.
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post #20 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 04:13 PM
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Your recommending the OP get an imbalanced front stage?

Not at all. I don't recall anywhere where I said that. You can certainly try and spin it that way if it makes you feel better. You are aware that many companies offer multiple center channels? We aren't debating the benefits of sonically matching the front stage. We are debating if spending funds on the front state, if one should lean towards a better center or mains for HT use.
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Your suggesting the OP chase after infrasonics on a $2k subwoofer budget?

I wasn't suggesting anything. That was merely in reaction to your response that others are foolish for spending money to replicate the original master. The OP did mention 10-12hz, so I was merely following along that track.

And yes, it is possible to reproduce 10-12 hz material on a 2k budget. wink.gif
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Also, many people's mains are not terribly powerful at 80 hz, especially if you have bookshelf speakers. The OP is contemplating buying bookshelf speakers and multiple subs, his system would be a great candidate for a higher crossover. I am arguing for a balanced approach. Home theater sound is definitely not 90% weighted toward the center and sub, and movie soundtracks are a lot more than merely dialogue and explosions. Well, at least the movies I like.

I don't recall anywhere in the OP where it was mentioned that he was contemplating buying bookshelf speakers. Please direct me to that post.

It is a proven fact that the center channel takes the majority of the burden in a HT setup. Does majority mean all; nope, never said that. But I guarantee you a weak center and/or sub will certainly become readily apparent during HT watching. Maybe you are watching mime movies. smile.gif

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post #21 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

This is the part you fail to understand in your above response.

Nothing was missed or misunderstood. A question was asked, an obviously "simple" reply was given and despite your protestations, the response was accurate. Was it complete? Of course not but then again, neither was your retort but there's no point in taking you to task on every one of your errors or omissions.

Personally, we listen to standard broadcast television at much lower master volume levels now that the changes I discussed have been implemented. We use to listen at -25. Then it was -35. Now we're down to -55 to -60.

-

All that means is you calibrated your setup higher so that so that the MV reads lower.
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post #22 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 04:19 PM
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Your recommending the OP get an imbalanced front stage?

Not at all. I don't recall anywhere where I said that. You can certainly try and spin it that way if it makes you feel better. You are aware that many companies offer multiple center channels? We aren't debating the benefits of sonically matching the front stage. We are debating if spending funds on the front state, if one should lean towards a better center or mains for HT use.
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Your suggesting the OP chase after infrasonics on a $2k subwoofer budget?

I wasn't suggesting anything. That was merely in reaction to your response that others are foolish for spending money to replicate the original master. The OP did mention 10-12hz, so I was merely following along that track.

And yes, it is possible to reproduce 10-12 hz material on a 2k budget. wink.gif
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Also, many people's mains are not terribly powerful at 80 hz, especially if you have bookshelf speakers. The OP is contemplating buying bookshelf speakers and multiple subs, his system would be a great candidate for a higher crossover. I am arguing for a balanced approach. Home theater sound is definitely not 90% weighted toward the center and sub, and movie soundtracks are a lot more than merely dialogue and explosions. Well, at least the movies I like.

I don't recall anywhere in the OP where it was mentioned that he was contemplating buying bookshelf speakers. Please direct me to that post.

It is a proven fact that the center channel takes the majority of the burden in a HT setup. Does majority mean all; nope, never said that. But I guarantee you a weak center and/or sub will certainly become readily apparent during HT watching. Maybe you are watching mime movies. smile.gif

It's possible with a 2k budget depending on room size and boundry gain. In my case I get 13hz with my dual HSU 15H setup in a 4500^3 room.
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post #23 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 04:27 PM
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It's generally agreed that the best front stage configuration is identical speakers for all three channels. If that isn't possible, one should get as close to that as possible. The OP has shown interest in bookshelf speakers in other threads.
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post #24 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

It's possible with a 2k budget depending on room size and boundry gain. In my case I get 13hz with my dual HSU 15H setup in a 4500^3 room.

My Hsus are digging pretty deep too, I am guessing around 13 hz for both systems. I can't be sure because my SPL meter gets pretty wonky at those lower frequencies. It more than enough for my mime movies anyway!
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post #25 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

It's possible with a 2k budget depending on room size and boundry gain. In my case I get 13hz with my dual HSU 15H setup in a 4500^3 room.

My Hsus are digging pretty deep too, I am guessing around 13 hz for both systems. I can't be sure because my SPL meter gets pretty wonky at those lower frequencies. It more than enough for my mime movies anyway!

For me too wink.gif. I don't have the budget nor the skills for DIY. I still want to do a DIY a ugly project but it'll be ported so I don't expect lower than what I currently have.
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post #26 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Your room is a huge factor in all of this, and should really help dictate your buying decision. A small sealed room that has carpet, drapes, lots of pillows, etc vs a huge open room with a tile or hardwood floor, etc... What about WAF factor? Do you have the ability to use multiple subwoofer in the room, and are you restricted with regards to placement? What about size restrictions on what size box(s) you can place in the room? You have to consider this first and foremost IMHO before you start buying anything.

My wife gets to listen to Barbra Streisand music with a set of mains that makes her feel like she is sitting on stage with Barbra and I get any subs I want so I can feel like Black Hawk Down just crashed into my living room. Fair trade off!

My room is not too large 14 W by 22 L and 8 foot ceilings. On the right I have a half wall to kitchen and a hallway...on the left I have sliding glass doors. My TV sits at one end of the 14w side...and my sofa is 12 feet from the wall and TV.

Also, my Center speaker comments were because it seems like some speaker lines sort of threw in a center as an almost after thought or a reluctant nod to the beer swilling "John Q Public" and while I really like their Tower speakers (on paper and from reviews)...I hear their Centers are subpar...since I want this for HT...I tend to shy away from those Towers with corrisponding supposedly weak centers ...even though everyone agrees the Towers are awesome (hope my rambling here makes sense)

Does this help?
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post #27 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 04:42 PM
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Umm, could you expound upon this for me?

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You may regret asking. cool.gif

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biggrin.gif

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Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

Noooo. /sigh you had to ask.

I was debating jumping in on this thread... Until I noticed the general consensus...

So, I'll add a +1 for all of the above comments and add something to contribute to the OP's question tomorrow.

 

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All that means is you calibrated your setup higher so that so that the MV reads lower.

No, final calibration levels are measured to be the same. It means the listenability has improved and that the speaker output is not destroying the dialogue by getting out of it's own way. Sorry, everything is not as you want it to be but hey, you're still welcome to your own opinion.
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post #29 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

It's generally agreed that the best front stage configuration is identical speakers for all three channels. If that isn't possible, one should get as close to that as possible. The OP has shown interest in bookshelf speakers in other threads.

I did ask questions about front bookshelf (Monitors) vs tower mains in another thread. I recieved enough reasons to go with a 3 way speaker so I am not considering them any more.
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post #30 of 129 Old 02-10-2013, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

My wife gets to listen to Barbra Streisand music with a set of mains that makes her feel like she is sitting on stage with Barbra and I get any subs I want so I can feel like Black Hawk Down just crashed into my living room. Fair trade off!

My room is not too large 14 W by 22 L and 8 foot ceilings. On the right I have a half wall to kitchen and a hallway...on the left I have sliding glass doors. My TV sits at one end of the 14w side...and my sofa is 12 feet from the wall and TV.

Also, my Center speaker comments were because it seems like some speaker lines sort of threw in a center as an almost after thought or a reluctant nod to the beer swilling "John Q Public" and while I really like their Tower speakers (on paper and from reviews)...I hear their Centers are subpar...since I want this for HT...I tend to shy away from those Towers with corrisponding supposedly weak centers ...even though everyone agrees the Towers are awesome (hope my rambling here makes sense)

Does this help?

Yes. Man, you are a prime candidate for DIY smile.gif

Something like this:
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-series-kits/fusion10-max-kit.html

Will definitely give you the sound you are looking for...

For a sub, you could do a pair of these:
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-packs-1/subwoofer-flatpacks-2/4-sub-flat-pack.html

With these drivers:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-472

And this amp:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Behringer-Stereo-Power-Amplifier/17656014

Will get you the ULF you are looking for smile.gif
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