PSA XS30 vs Rythmik F15HP - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 02-11-2013, 10:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone done any testing between the PSA XS30 and Rythmik F15HP?
People seem to talk about the FV15HP, but you rarely see the F15HP mentioned.

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post #2 of 47 Old 02-11-2013, 11:11 PM
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post #3 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 06:34 AM
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I think the F15HP is totally outclassed by the PSA XS30. The F15HP seems like a great music system sub but for a decent size room for mostly HT, I think there would be better options for the price. Which is why you see so many FV15 and not the F15 recommendations.
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post #4 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

I think the F15HP is totally outclassed by the PSA XS30. The F15HP seems like a great music system sub but for a decent size room for mostly HT, I think there would be better options for the price. Which is why you see so many FV15 and not the F15 recommendations.

I wouldn't be so sure about this. Sure a XS30 could probably get louder, but there is the matter of sound quality. The XS30 doesn't have as many features and does not look as nice either.
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post #5 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 08:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I wouldn't be so sure about this. Sure a XS30 could probably get louder, but there is the matter of sound quality. The XS30 doesn't have as many features and does not look as nice either.

And if hidden behind a chair, would looks be a consideration?

At a main listening position SPL of 105dB, what about the sound quality of the F15HP do you find, or do you think, is better than the XS30?

(The above are curiosity questions, not attack questions although they can easily be seen as such)

I don't recall there being double blind studies done (if there are, I'm not aware of them) on subwoofer sound quality at level matched SPL as is done with AVR's and amplifiers.
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post #6 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Stiltz View Post

Has anyone done any testing between the PSA XS30 and Rythmik F15HP?
People seem to talk about the FV15HP, but you rarely see the F15HP mentioned.

I don't think you will find any tests between these subs. The XS30 is pretty new still and I have not even seen many in-room measurements taken from it. For the money and based on specs, the XS30 looks like a better value, but without independent 3rd party testing it is hard to say which one is better.

The Rythmik sub has more finish options and a less industrialized look to it, but I still find the PSA sub pleasent to look at.
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post #7 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I wouldn't be so sure about this. Sure a XS30 could probably get louder, but there is the matter of sound quality. The XS30 doesn't have as many features and does not look as nice either.

What makes you feel that the F15HP will have better sound quality over the XS30? Many of the features you are talking about lots of other subs that sound great don't have.

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post #8 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I wouldn't be so sure about this. Sure a XS30 could probably get louder, but there is the matter of sound quality. The XS30 doesn't have as many features and does not look as nice either.

What makes you feel that the F15HP will have better sound quality over the XS30? Many of the features you are talking about lots of other subs that sound great don't have.

The Direct-Servo produces measurable lower levels of distortion and a greater degree of cone control at high excursion levels (further lowering distortion). How audible that is at low-mid listening levels could be tossed around for many pages by folks with a better understanding then I. At higher listening levels and large excursion levels it is a clear audible improvement in sound quality. I have heard Rythmik and PSA and they both sound very nice to me, my concern would be at those higher levels and that is where we should expect the PSA to have more output. The Rythmik is going to stay cleaner up there.

In the end if these were the last two subs on earth, I'd have a tough choice. I'd go for the additional output for mostly movies but I'd definitely go for the Rythmik for Music. But, since that's the case for me, FV15HP All the way (OK it's still pretty close, but that's the way I go). The Rythmik is smaller if that's a consideration.

Rythmik and PSA are making some great subs at great value. We are fortunate to have these ID offerings from good folks who provide top notch customer service.
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post #9 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 12:20 PM
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So by that theory a Rythmik sub would sound better then a Seaton Submersive because of the Direct-Servo? I think you'd have a had time of convincing anyone of that. You've done a blind comparison of a XS30 and F15HP and can honestly say the F15HP sounds better? Sorry dstew100 I know you know your subs but unless this is the case you are simply giving a theory and opinion.

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post #10 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

So by that theory a Rythmik sub would sound better then a Seaton Submersive because of the Direct-Servo? I think you'd have a had time of convincing anyone of that. You've done a blind comparison of a XS30 and F15HP and can honestly say the F15HP sounds better? Sorry dstew100 I know you know your subs but unless this is the case you are simply giving a theory and opinion.

Ease up there, no putting words in my mouth smile.gif The Submersive is not only a work of art but sounds fantastic, has massive output capabilities, digs very deep, and I think it's very reasonably priced for what it is. We'll have to wait and see if the forthcoming Rythmik F25 is in the Seaton league; glad that pressure isn't on my shoulders.

I would be very interested in seeing tests like that. Honestly though, at the GTG in a very informal with us drinking atmosphere I could not audibly say "that's a servo, that's not". There have been some third part tests on just a Rythmik, servo and non servo and the measurements show lower distortion, and they said in theory the differences were enough to be audible. The other thing that has been done is measure the feedback coming off the servo unit, it is measurably decreasing distortion. The greater cone control at high levels I don't think is in question, but potentially I could be eat my words on that. Although I'd still put this in the opinion category, I'm pretty confident on greater cone control providing an audible difference.

Such a comparison is hard. The test would have to be a servo'd submersive vs a non-servo'd submersive, not what you are suggesting. I wonder what Mark's opinion is on the matter but I suspect he doesn't think it adds enough since he doesn't do it.

Another very subjective opinion I have on the Rythmik is Brian is an Electrical Engineer and makes a valid point about how historically amp people are not driver people and vice versa. He makes critical design decisions well and is looking out for the value oriented offerings for customers (see 550watt amp saving 100bux giving up .5db SPL). Based on his love for music, how he takes care of his customers, contributes so much technical information, is all about high value, I do not believe he would be building servo subs as a marketing gimmik. As an engineer, I'm not a fan of those marketing / sales people, never met an engineer that was, my Dad's an EE, and I've worked with other engineers for 13 years. I just don't see it. I know it measures better, but if it didn't perform better, I'm of the opinion he wouldn't be building servo subs. Obviosuly everyone gets to make up their own mind on such an angle.

A question mark I have in my head is why does the XS30 need two 15's to get where the FV15HP is in terms of output (assuming we can agree they are pretty close, which I think the measurements say they are)? Is that just driver differences or is the servo allowing the Rythmik to push harder without distorting? Clearly the XS30 has box size advantage (but the Rythmik is ported). I'm not sure on any of these answers but something I think about.

I'm not taking anything away from PSA, I own one and it is sweet. But I do really enjoy my Rythmiks. So So So clean.

I've learned a lot on the subs the last couple years, but there's many a man around here that's far beyond my understanding. And if I'm wrong, not afraid to stand up and say it; love learning something new.
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post #11 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 02:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

The other thing that has been done is measure the feedback coming off the servo unit, it is measurably decreasing distortion. The greater cone control at high levels I don't think is in question, but potentially I could be eat my words on that. Although I'd still put this in the opinion category, I'm pretty confident on greater cone control providing an audible difference.

Based on what I've read on these pages, IIRC, at the lower subwoofer level frequencies, THD below 10% is undetectable. And if one considers the transient response of either music or movie tracks, playing normal music, not just a select piece, over and over and over and over again, in double blind tests (behind a curtain) I doubt few if any could detect differences when level match at 85dB.

Quote:
Such a comparison is hard. The test would have to be a servo'd submersive vs a non-servo'd submersive, not what you are suggesting. I wonder what Mark's opinion is on the matter but I suspect he doesn't think it adds enough since he doesn't do it.

It's amazing the obvious differences disappear when curtains are dropped and the individual that was so sure when sighted, isn't so sure when blind.
Quote:
Another very subjective opinion I have on the Rythmik is Brian is an Electrical Engineer and makes a valid point about how historically amp people are not driver people and vice versa.

I thought the consumer was the final arbiter. confused.gif

Quote:
A question mark I have in my head is why does the XS30 need two 15's to get where the FV15HP is in terms of output (assuming we can agree they are pretty close, which I think the measurements say they are)?

One is sealed and one is ported and in my opinion, all that I would care about is output vs price, can I hide it behind a chair and will the addition integrate into the listening venue's acoustics. confused.gif

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post #12 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 02:09 PM
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Sorry dstew100, I didn't mean to come across like that. Put I also need to point out a few things from your last post. First I don't believe the new F25 would even be close to Seaton territory give that from the Rythmik web site it won't even out perform the FV15HP as far as output goes.
Output comparison
At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.
•F12: 0db (baseline)
•F15: +2db D15: +2db
•FV12: +3db
•E15HP: + 3.5db
•F15HP: +4db
•FV15: +7db
•FV15HP: +9db
•F25: +7db

That was taken from the Rythmik webpage.

Secondly I don't believe Direct Servo is a technology that Rythmik has patiened, I could be wrong but don't see it mentioned anywhere. I get what you're saying about Brian but at the same time there are lots of other sub companies that I'm sure at some point have had engineers design their products and they don't use direct servo technology and sound just as good. And seeing that Rythmik is really the only one pushing the direct servo its hard to say that they don't use it with marketing in mind.

And lastly the OP was comparing the F15HP with the XS30, I'm guessing its because they are both sealed subs. Needing dual drivers to get similiar output with the FV15HP is because of the design, ported vs sealed I would have to say. And to top it off the FV15HP has a larger box size advantage over the XS30. The ouput advantage of the FV15HP is below 30hz about that the XS30 holds the advantage.

Both Rythmik and PSA make great subs, there is no question about that.

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post #13 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 02:12 PM
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If the OP is simply comparing the XS30 with the F15HP, I would have to say the XS30 would have an advantage in output. For sound quality, I think the XS30 sounds great but I haven't compared it directly to a F15HP and to top it off sound "quality" is very subjective. The sound I like might not be something the next guy likes.
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post #14 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 02:24 PM
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Hey fellas, enjoying the discussion and am learning stuff too here. I am about to run out the door, will be back on tomorrow. Couple quick points

-Agree double blind rules, but I still contend it would have to be identical subs in every way other than the servo control.
-I'll double check but I think Servo is the general thing and Direct-Servo is a Rythmik only patented technology. It differs in the way say velodynes servos work for example. It gives direct instant distortion correction feedback. I think the others are powered or have some other sort of delay????? Maybe
-Thanks for pointing out the F25 Output numbers. When I saw the submersives it was two Submersives and an F2 playing so we did not compare one submersive against the FV15HP. Regardless I know the submerssive has more output and they didn't have to work at all with 2 submersives and an F2 at the levels we were at to even be in a position to say whether the servo mattered (they were virtual 0 distortion at that point). Ack the F25 isn't going to have as much output, tyty

More thoughts tomorrow. All amps sound the same, don't beat me up too bad for buying into the servo smile.gif
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More thoughts tomorrow. All amps sound the same, don't beat me up too bad for buying into the servo smile.gif

I don't believe in brutality. Too much energy. To me, it's the final reproduced sound that matters and how one gets to the point of final sound, personally, I'm not concerned because when the curtain goes down and the volume goes up, that's the pudding my ears eat.
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post #16 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

If the OP is simply comparing the XS30 with the F15HP, I would have to say the XS30 would have an advantage in output.

You sure about that? The FV15HP has an extraordinary amount of output. Look at data-bass.com, it bests the PB13 Ultra at almost every frequency except for 20 hz. I would wait till the XS30 has been tested by third parties before believing it is hitting over 118 dB at 30 hz on up.
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post #17 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I wouldn't be so sure about this. Sure a XS30 could probably get louder, but there is the matter of sound quality. The XS30 doesn't have as many features and does not look as nice either.

I don't think anyone will agrue the looks department. I have an XS30 and think it looks fine, of course I basically have a batcave theater room so I don't expect it to be in my living room and look like an expensive piece of furniture. But I don't agree with the sound quality arguement. Sound quality is speakers is hard enough to agrue about because its so subjective. Subs are even worse.

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post #18 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 02:38 PM
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You sure about that? The FV15HP has an extraordinary amount of output. Look at data-bass.com, it bests the PB13 Ultra at almost every frequency except for 20 hz. I would wait till the XS30 has been tested by third parties before believing it is hitting over 118 dB at 30 hz on up.

Tom from PSA has told me a couple times the XS30 hit 122.5db in 40hz and up range and I have no reason not to believe him. He's not going to lie especially knowning that eventually someone will test one and put out the numbers. So yes I'm sure about that. Below 30hz you would almost need two XS30's to equal one FV15HP, but above 30hz you would basically need two FV15HP's to equal one XS30. It basically comes down to design of the subs.

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post #19 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Tom from PSA has told me a couple times the XS30 hit 122.5db in 40hz and up range and I have no reason not to believe him. He's not going to lie especially knowning that eventually someone will test one and put out the numbers. So yes I'm sure about that. Below 30hz you would almost need two XS30's to equal one FV15HP, but above 30hz you would basically need two FV15HP's to equal one XS30. It basically comes down to design of the subs.

Not putting down the XS30 but I'd rather wait till Ricci is able to get some numbers on the XS30 if I was in the market and had to decide between an FV15HP/PB13U or an XS30.

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I think things are getting a little off topic, the OP is asking about a F15HP vs the XS30. We should keep it on topic, I stand by what I said I would take a XS30 over the F15HP if those were your two choices. When I bought my dual XS30s I was considering dual FV15HPs and I still picked the XS30. And I did months of research on about 8 different subs.

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post #21 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 02:50 PM
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Can't go wrong with either. biggrin.gif

Draw straws

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #22 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 03:17 PM
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Yeah basically, looks didn't matter and I liked the idea of the dual opposing drivers plus Tom was awesome to deal with. Otherwise I would have probably bought the dual FV15HP set up. For me it was basically get the dual FV15HP's or a single Captivator S1 or the dual XS30s. I wanted to try out sealed subs this time so I went with the XS30. Either company you buy from a great companies.

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post #23 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Based on what I've read on these pages, IIRC, at the lower subwoofer level frequencies, THD below 10% is undetectable.
-
This statement is correct only if the distortion is low order. If we have a 10% 10th order distortion, you bet you can hear it. That is also the reason CEA set up different threshould for different harmonic distortion, not THD. There are actually quite a few subwoofers in Data-bass that CEA max SPL number is much less than what the manufacturers have claimed based on their power amp rating. The simple explanation --- excessive high order harmonic distortion at high outputs. The name of the gaming in getting high CEA numbers is how to get high order harmonic distortion low.
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post #24 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 05:21 PM
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This statement is correct only if the distortion is low order. If we have a 10% 10th order distortion, you bet you can hear it. That is also the reason CEA set up different threshould for different harmonic distortion, not THD. There are actually quite a few subwoofers in Data-bass that CEA max SPL number is much less than what the manufacturers have claimed based on their power amp rating. The simple explanation --- excessive high order harmonic distortion at high outputs. The name of the gaming in getting high CEA numbers is how to get high order harmonic distortion low.

Brian, any idea of when you'll be releasing the new version of the F25 with the 800w amp? And will it have any better performance then the older 600w version?

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post #25 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 05:42 PM
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I don't agree with the sound quality arguement. .

There is most certainly a qualitative difference between the Rythmik sound and conventional subs. I have done a A/B comparison myself, an Rythmik, a Hsu, an Outlaw, and an Elemental Designs sub. It could achieve a certain definition that the others didn't.
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Tom from PSA has told me a couple times the XS30 hit 122.5db in 40hz and up range and I have no reason not to believe him. He's not going to lie especially knowning that eventually someone will test one and put out the numbers. So yes I'm sure about that. Below 30hz you would almost need two XS30's to equal one FV15HP, but above 30hz you would basically need two FV15HP's to equal one XS30. It basically comes down to design of the subs.

Different testers can generate different results. And what you are saying is at 30 hz and above the XS30 is hitting 124 dB at a 2m groundplane test, which is, of course, absurd.
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post #26 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 07:08 PM
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Sorry Shady but where did I say 124db above 30hz? I believe I said I was told by Tom that they measured a XS30 @ 122.5db at the 40hz and up range in a 2m ground plane measurement. And why would that be absurd?

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post #27 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 07:20 PM
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The FV15HP averages 118 dB at 30 hz and above (in 2 ports mode), two of them would be an additional 6 dB. As for XS30 doing 122 dB at 40 hz, maybe Tom measured that, but lets see someone else replicate that result.
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post #28 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The FV15HP averages 118 dB at 30 hz and above (in 2 ports mode), two of them would be an additional 6 dB. As for XS30 doing 122 dB at 40 hz, maybe Tom measured that, but lets see someone else replicate that result.

Shady while I'm not going to argue that the FV15HP is a great sub, it's not the be all end all sub. I do find it some what amusing though that you have a hard time admitting the XS30 will out perform the FV15HP above 40hz. 6db would only happen if you put two FV15HP in the same location. You'd only get 4db if for example you had one in each corner of your front wall for example. But I'm sure you're already aware of this.

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post #29 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 07:43 PM
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Haven't we heard this all before? Didn't you go around and around with dominguez1 on this same subject?
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post #30 of 47 Old 02-12-2013, 07:48 PM
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Yes I did and I was thinking the exact same thing too beachan and that was also the reason I was trying to keep the thread on topic. I really do like the FV15HP but there seems to be a lot of guys that don't believe the XS30 can hold its own too.

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