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post #1 of 44 Old 02-14-2013, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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A friend is looking to put together a HT/music system and is looking for a sub or subs but he has budgeted about $700 or so for the sub part. I am guessing he might stretch a bit if worth the increment. He is currently looking at a Episode 12 for $700 that Andrew Robinson rated very highly in Dec 2011.

What are some other suggestions in this price range? Minimum 12" but preferably 13" or 15", just don't know options in that price range. For a smaller living area in a great room so an open area. Also, any thoughts on the Episode? I am used to sealed subs and that one is ported.

I told him about the twin F212s I heard recently but he didn't seem willing to up his budget to about $13.5K.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
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post #2 of 44 Old 02-14-2013, 08:13 PM
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Hsu VTF3 MK4 is a good 12" variable tuning sub.

Or for a hundred more than his budget get the Power Sound Audio XV15, which includes free shipping and can use Paypal bill me later.

The XV15 received product of the year award at audioholics
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post #3 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 03:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, will check out the XV15 more. He also has an older Onkyo 7.1 receiver so I don't know if it does sub distance, would think so. If it does then a phase adjustment wouldn't be needed, correct? Also noted SVS offers some twin sub options for about $1000. For that you may need phase adjustment depending upon placement.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
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post #4 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 04:53 AM
 
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Without room analyzing capability, your friend won't be able to get the best out of any subwoofer system so my recommendation is to purchase an OmniMic kit for about $300.00 and a Klipsch, RW-12d which sells for a delivered $300.00 when on sale at Newegg and later, add a second RW-12d.

Later when he gets tired of this setup, he can sell the Klipsch subwoofer system and upgrade his subs from a position of knowledge.
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post #5 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 05:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! I do have an Omnimic kit so we can use that to help set it up. I just got it a short bit ago and have not had time to mess with it much yet. I did set up our living room system with the SMS-1 but don't have that available anymore.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
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post #6 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 05:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

Thanks! I do have an Omnimic kit so we can use that to help set it up. I just got it a short bit ago and have not had time to mess with it much yet. I did set up our living room system with the SMS-1 but don't have that available anymore.

Cool. And with your assistance, he won't need to spend on an OmniMic setup and can get two Klipsch, RW-12d's. If he wants to step-up to better, as I'm sure you've already done, recommend two subs for the smoother bass the second sub provides. With that in mind, maybe a pair of Rythmik LV12R's as in my opinion, currently, the LV12R is the reining champ at that price point and at the price of the LV12R, he should be able to have two delivered to his door for a bit more then his original budget.

.......biggrin.gif

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post #7 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Without room analyzing capability, your friend won't be able to get the best out of any subwoofer system so my recommendation is to purchase an OmniMic kit for about $300.00 and a Klipsch, RW-12d which sells for a delivered $300.00 when on sale at Newegg and later, add a second RW-12d.

Later when he gets tired of this setup, he can sell the Klipsch subwoofer system and upgrade his subs from a position of knowledge.
I would have a hard time recommending someone purchase a $300 sub and then a $300 analyzing program. Why not buy a $600 sub (or 2 $300 subs), do a sub crawl and let your ears be the deciding factor. If the friend is not happy, then save some additional $$ for an analyzer. Seems like a waste of money to me on a budget sub, IMO!
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post #8 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 08:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by walke108 View Post

I would have a hard time recommending someone purchase a $300 sub and then a $300 analyzing program. Why not buy a $600 sub (or 2 $300 subs), do a sub crawl and let your ears be the deciding factor. If the friend is not happy, then save some additional $$ for an analyzer. Seems like a waste of money to me on a budget sub, IMO!

I don't. Do you have and use a room analyzing program?

On my end, after acquiring a room analyzing program, I don't feel comfortable recommending the buying of a $300.00 sub or any sub for that matter, and not recommend buying a $300.00 room analyzing program. Sub crawls and using one's ears, don't come close to what a room analyzing program offers in subwoofer performance enhancement. Believe it or not, the benefit of a room analyzing program will aid in bringing the budget subwoofers alive and give them the type of life one dreams of but if no room analyzing program, unless extremely lucky, the subwoofers will just sit there, flat by comparison.

In my opinion, based on what I've learned, subwoofers are the type of item that at minimum, demand a "quality" sound meter and that a room analyzing program be present as well as having some sort of EQ program be part of the process. And yes, I know I take a lot of grief for what I have to share but the proof is in the pudding and because of what I've learned, coupled to what I gained with a room analyzer program, makes all the grief worth it.

In the short, knowing what I know, based on personal experience, I can't in good conscience tell somebody to buy a budget minded subwoofer and not in the same breath, tell them they "NEED" full room analyzing capability or they're throwing their money away. There's no way in words to convey the magic a well set up system conveys. That's something one needs to experience first hand but one can convey the urgency or need to obtain room analyzing capability if the person they're giving the advice to, is expecting magic.

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post #9 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 11:43 AM
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You don't have to spend $300+ on room analyzing gear. If it is one sub you can always take manual measurements with a $40 SPL meter and chart the results manually as a starting place (and doing the sub crawl, Audyssey, etc). With multiple subs, you can invest in a sub $100 USB mic that is plug and play with REW (free room analyzing software). REW might havea steeper learning curve but the USB mics from Parts Express and Minidsp really make it easier to get going, and there are lots of how-to's and docs out there.

I myself would not invest $300 in a sub and $300 in room analyzing gear. I would rather have a $550+ sub and an SPL meter..
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post #10 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 11:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

You don't have to spend $300+ on room analyzing gear. If it is one sub you can always take manual measurements with a $40 SPL meter and chart the results manually as a starting place (and doing the sub crawl, Audyssey, etc). With multiple subs, you can invest in a sub $100 USB mic that is plug and play with REW (free room analyzing software). REW might havea steeper learning curve but the USB mics from Parts Express and Minidsp really make it easier to get going, and there are lots of how-to's and docs out there.

I myself would not invest $300 in a sub and $300 in room analyzing gear. I would rather have a $550+ sub and an SPL meter..

Seriously?

There's no way on "God's Green Earth" a sub crawl will equal a "REAL" room analyzer but hey, if it makes you feel good about yourself, go for it. tongue.gif

There's not way a $40.00 sound meter and a human brain is going equal the computing power of a "REAL" room analyzer but if your ego says go for it.....do. tongue.gif

$300.00 vs cut rate, equals ease of a novice's learning curve, or if you will, the ease of a normal person being able to use the gear. If you want to turn a novice off, have them jump into REW.

You forgot to mention the part about USB being limited to 5m leashes and if needing to run further than 5m, one needs to add USB hubs. If running more than 5m, one needs to go XLR and a Phantom Power Supply or like the Wall of China, every 5m, add a watch tower; a USB hub..

(It's all good dude)

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post #11 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 12:01 PM
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I don't think anyone should suggest getting an RW12D(or two) over an XV15.

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post #12 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by walke108 View Post

I would have a hard time recommending someone purchase a $300 sub and then a $300 analyzing program.
+1. OTOH you don't need to spend $300. One of these:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=390-808

and free software, like HolmImpulse, will do just fine. As for the SPL meter, that's not a necessity. You need to know what in-room response is, not SPL.

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post #13 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 12:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

I don't think anyone should suggest getting an RW12D(or two) over an XV15.

Looks like you're wrong as I think it's excellent advice. tongue.gif

If you think it's wrong advice, that's fine but in the meantime, in my opinion, two RW-12d's, properly placed (create magical sound quality) will "EASILY" outperform one XV15 that's randomly placed by a neophyte, unless the "placee" is extremely lucky with both placement and parametric settings.

(I'm a fanboy of PSA subwoofer technology so don't even think of going there)

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post #14 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 12:17 PM
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Looks like you're wrong as I think it's excellent advice.. tongue.gif

If you think it's wrong advice that's fine but in the meantime, in my opinion, two RW-12d's, properly placed will outperform one XV15 that's randomly placed by a neophyte, unless the placer is extremely lucky with both placement and parametric settings.

(I'm a fanboy of PSA subwoofer technology so don't even think of going there)

-

Wow. How many times do you have to edit that post?

I would ask you to explain your opinion on the matter, but I'm afraid it will just derail another thread.

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post #15 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 12:22 PM
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I would ask you to explain your opinion on the matter, but I'm afraid it will just derail another thread.
You won't have to ask. rolleyes.gif

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post #16 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 12:23 PM
 
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Wow. How many times do you have to edit that post?

Personally, it depends on how poor my grammatical, communicative skill are for any one particular day.

As to derailment, that's dependent on how far and long you wish to derail the thread and when you feel you've done a sufficient job in derailment, regarding the lambasting of my position.
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post #17 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Personally, it depends on how poor my grammatical, communicative skill are for any one particular day.

As to derailment, that's dependent on how far and long you wish to derail the thread and when you feel you've done a sufficient job in derailment, regarding the lambasting of my position.

Ok. lol

OP, how big is your friends room?

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post #18 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Seriously?

There's no way on "God's Green Earth" a sub crawl will equal a "REAL" room analyzer but hey, if it makes you feel good about yourself, go for it. tongue.gif

There's not way a $40.00 sound meter and a human brain is going equal the computing power of a "REAL" room analyzer but if your ego says go for it.....do. tongue.gif

$300.00 vs cut rate, equals ease of a novice's learning curve, or if you will, the ease of a normal person being able to use the gear. If you want to turn a novice off, have them jump into REW.

You forgot to mention the part about USB being limited to 5m leashes and if needing to run further than 5m, one needs to add USB hubs. If running more than 5m, one needs to go XLR and a Phantom Power Supply or like the Wall of China, every 5m, add a watch tower; a USB hub..

(It's all good dude)

-

My guess is a small percentage of people are going to want to invest $300 in measurement gear with a $600 budget. I would daresay that most people who buy a subwoofer just plop it in the corner where it has the most WAF factor and their placement options are minimal. If you are one of these people, investing $300 in measurement gear that you may use once to measure because you can't move the sub, is pretty much a waste of money.

The calibrated USB mics are plug and play with REW, it eliminates a lot of the issues that most people have with getting started with REW. There are step by step beginner guides to get up and running and tons of support for the program.

You totally lost me on the USB cable issue. The Omnimic has a 6ft cable, the PE USB mic has a 10' cable.. Omnimic is more limited than the USB mic in terms of extension, and I can buy a 32' 2.0 USB cable from Monoprice that has a built in repeater for $19. But if you are using a laptop, I would think a 10' cable is more than sufficient. So I am not really seeing the issue.

I am all about bang for the buck. A sub $100 plug and play USB mic and free software that autodetects the new USB mics is worth it to me to save $200. I would rather put the $200 towards a sub especially on a $600 budget.

I have zero beef with the Omnimic system. I debated buying one myself, but decided to go the plug and play USB mic route + REW for under $100 shipped. On a $600 budget recommending a $300 measurement system is a poor recommendation. Not cost effective at all.

BTW, you can connect an SPL meter to REW. So if you have an SPL meter, or access to one, you can go this route if you want to save money and dabble with REW.
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post #19 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

$300.00 vs cut rate, equals ease of a novice's learning curve, or if you will, the ease of a normal person being able to use the gear. If you want to turn a novice off, have them jump into REW.
 

 

Actually, once it was set up, I had a lot of fun with REW. And now it's much easier than it had been:

www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs

And I'm a novice with an RW-12d, and I'm VERY happy.


Downloadable FREE demo discs:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475769/de...ently-authored 

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #20 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 12:45 PM
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Post 3 "Thanks! I do have an Omnimic kit so we can use that to help set it up."

Don't know how you missed this, the OP has an omnimic and is going to help friend integrate.

OP if you need help or advice with setup, feel free to ask any questions. It won't take long to realize who gives useful advice and who just buzz's around trolling.

I say PSA or HSU.
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post #21 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 12:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

On a $600 budget recommending a $300 measurement system is a poor recommendation. Not cost effective at all.

Actually, it's bang on, very cost effective advice as the difference between a poorly placed sub and a properly placed sub is priceless.

Quote:
BTW, you can connect an SPL meter to REW.

And knowing you've done your homework, most sound meters are limited to 31.5Hz where as a UMM-6 USB Measurement Microphone is spec'd down to 18Hz.

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So if you have an SPL meter, or access to one, you can go this route if you want to save money and dabble with REW.

Yes you can......if you don't care about measurement accuracy.
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post #22 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 12:51 PM
 
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Actually, once it was set up, I had a lot of fun with REW.

And I'm a novice with an RW-12d, and I'm VERY happy.

And what about jima4a's friend?
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post #23 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Post 3 "Thanks! I do have an Omnimic kit so we can use that to help set it up."

Don't know how you missed this, the OP has an omnimic and is going to help friend integrate.

OP if you need help or advice with setup, feel free to ask any questions. It won't take long to realize who gives useful advice and who just buzz's around trolling.

I say PSA or HSU.

Per Post # 6, he didn't miss it. He did go on to recommend getting two RW12d's though. Then edited the comment to add LV12R's.

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post #24 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

Per Post # 6, he didn't miss it. He did go on to recommend getting two RW12d's though. Then edited the comment to add LV12R's.

Nobody quoted him so I didn't see it.wink.gif
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post #25 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 01:31 PM
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What size room does your friend have?
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post #26 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Actually, it's bang on, very cost effective advice as the difference between a poorly placed sub and a properly placed sub is priceless.

In many cases this might be true, but it is not universal. I agree, a calibrated mic is always the best way to get the most out of your sub, but it is not the best bang for the buck for every situation. There are a lot of things that can be done to optimize a sub that don't cost $300. Cost effective is a very subjective phrase, but IMO, the performance difference between a $300 and $600 sub is much more substantial than spending $300 vs $40 or less on measuring equipment.
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And knowing you've done your homework, most sound meters are limited to 31.5Hz where as a UMM-6 USB Measurement Microphone is spec'd down to 18Hz.

Not sure what homework you've done besides looking at manufacturer specs, but you may want to go back to school. Many of us have been reading about and researching measuring equipment and actually measuring much longer than you have, so I would be careful calling out others. Take a look at this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1328136/measurement-mic-shootout-emm-6-wm-61a-rs-33-2055-audyssey

It shows the digital RS SPL meters that were tested are relatively close to a calibrated EMM6 down to about 10hz. Of course not all RS SPL meters will be that accurate, but for the majority of people, they will be sufficient for measuring the sub above about 20hz. IMO, for someone spending multi thousands of dollars who wants to get every last bit of performance out of their system or someone that is looking to measure below ~20hz, I would definitely recommend a calibrated mic. But for someone that is spending <$1000, will not be upgrading or changing their equipment / room anytime soon or will not spend a lot of time tweaking, a cheap SPL meter is more than enough.

Just to be clear, I am not saying the Omnimic or USB mics are not excellent products, I just don't think they are the best purchase for every person.
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Yes you can......if you don't care about measurement accuracy.

Since you are not using a mic calibrated by a third party, I guess you don't care about measurement accuracy either.

-Mike
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post #27 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 02:52 PM
 
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In many cases this might be true, but it is not universal

It's totally universal. It don't matter the room, the subwoofer or the placement.....totally universal.

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I agree, a calibrated mic is always the best way to get the most out of your sub, but it is not the best bang for the buck for every situation.

My comment does not address best "bang-for-buck" issues as the magic of a properly placed, dialed in and calibrated system doesn't care about issues surrounding "bang-for-buck." Yes, you're right, if one is about three hundred dollars and doesn't care about the magic of a properly placed and dialed in system, go for the low level quality a sound meter and guessing provides. In real life, it's called the lowest common denominator.

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Cost effective is a very subjective phrase,...

Only to the point of; you're ruining the potential of your subwoofer system. After that, it's all quantitative.

Quote:
...but IMO, the performance difference between a $300 and $600 sub is much more substantial than spending $300 vs $40 or less on measuring equipment.

No it's not. This is not a subjective issue as this is a quantifiable issue that can be measured and compared for. This is something you can both see in the form of an on screen graph and yes, your ears will hear the difference in spacial reverberation and quality. This is not magic mushroom type stuff. As to shootouts, in order for every thing to work, I have to make the assumption that all the manufacturers have "LIED" about their specifications and that's a reach in anybody's book. Unless, I personally have run the tests, I'm calling BS on the results as the results don't mirror the manufacture's published specifications. And yes, this should cause one to question the accuracy of the results.

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Not sure what homework you've done besides looking at manufacturer specs, but you may want to go back to school. Many of us have been reading about and researching measuring equipment and actually measuring much longer than you have, so I would be careful calling out others. Take a look at this thread.

You really don't expect me to take this type of troll bait do you?

Quote:
It shows the digital RS SPL meters that were tested are relatively close to a calibrated EMM6 down to about 10hz. Of course not all RS SPL meters will be that accurate, but for the majority of people, they will be sufficient for measuring the sub above about 20hz. IMO, for someone spending multi thousands of dollars who wants to get every last bit of performance out of their system or someone that is looking to measure below ~20hz, I would definitely recommend a calibrated mic. But for someone that is spending <$1000, will not be upgrading or changing their equipment / room anytime soon or will not spend a lot of time tweaking, a cheap SPL meter is more than enough.

Just to be clear, I am not saying the Omnimic or USB mics are not excellent products, I just don't think they are the best purchase for every person.
Since you are not using a mic calibrated by a third party, I guess you don't care about measurement accuracy either.

As to calibration and specifications, repeatedly I have commented as to having a Radio Shack, digital sound meter and two other sound meters as well as a calibration device to empirically verify the accuracy of each of the sound measuring devices being used. And the EMM-6 microphone being used, comes with it's very own, downloadable calibration graph. Is that good enough or do I need to buy a fourth, Type I sound meter? Personally, I'm happy to but if I have to, so do you and everybody else here. The point, be careful what you demand of others as yo'll be expected to exact the same on yourself.

The point, my advice is sound advice and meets the scientific definition of repeatability as without a standard, you're whistling in the wind and without measuring capability, nobody can rationally be expected to get the best out of their system and recommendations should include advice regarding the best...recommendations.

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post #28 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 03:07 PM
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All this bickering......."takes the fun...OUT of the job"
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Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

All this bickering......."takes the fun...OUT of the job"

A job? This is a hobby. Did "YOU" make a wrong turn. tongue.gif
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post #30 of 44 Old 02-15-2013, 03:31 PM
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Id say get the nice sub first than save up money later for omnimic / RTA. A well placed RW-12 can sound good but it in the long run you know you'll want a SubM one there haha.

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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