Subwoofer audyssey calibration... weaksauce "reference level" - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 128 Old 02-21-2013, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Craig,

I may have asked you this before, but want to actually do it tonight. biggrin.gif

Can I use REWs pink noise to perform this calibration? I'm guessing the only way to do this right is to set my receiver to Multi-Channel Stereo (full range signal to all speakers) then connect only one speaker at a time, play the pink noise and adjust....sound right?
Honestly Alan, I don't know the frequency content of REW's pink noise signal, nor do I know how well calibrated your REW system is. If it's calibrated against your SPL meter, whatever you do after that will be limited to the accuracy of your SPL meter.
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Since we can't trust our RatShack meters, how would one go about making certain that 0db on the AVRs MV is actually "Reference Level"?

Thanks!
If you belong to NetFlix, rent Avia. Or some of the THX disks have test tones you can play.

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post #92 of 128 Old 02-21-2013, 03:44 PM
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I have the Rives Audio Test CD 2 - which frequency would work the best? Where should the MVC be set while playing said tone? Will the Multi Channel Stereo setting/method work as I think it will?

Thanks again Craig!

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post #93 of 128 Old 02-21-2013, 04:17 PM
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I'm not familiar with that disc, but there is this: http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/subwoofer-calibration-using-rives-audio-test-cd-2 It's for calibrating a subwoofer, but you might find it helpful.

Your technique of using All Channel Stereo should work but I've never tried it.

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post #94 of 128 Old 02-21-2013, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

I getcha Craig, but I swear that with the levels bumped up, it sounds better at all volume levels - could this have something to do with Audyssey's Dynamic EQ and how it interacts with the speaker trim levels?

I'm gonna try resetting the trims to where Audyssey set them tonight and do some listening (or, just re-run Audyssey...again rolleyes.gif ) - I'll report back!

Dynamic EQ increases the volume of surrounds relative to the mains as audio gets softer. This shifting of the soundstage from the front to the sides is why I prefer to leave Dynamic EQ disabled in my HT.
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post #95 of 128 Old 02-21-2013, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

Dynamic EQ increases the volume of surrounds relative to the mains as audio gets softer. This shifting of the soundstage from the front to the sides is why I prefer to leave Dynamic EQ disabled in my HT.

Have you tried playing with the Ref Lvl offset?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

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post #96 of 128 Old 02-21-2013, 06:34 PM
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I would be interested in Dynamic EQ if it just did a modest LFE boost as the volume is lowered. My room layout forces me to sit near my left surround speaker, so enabling Dynamic EQ gives me an earful of left surround. When the feature is disabled the balance of the speaker levels is consistant at every volume. I haven't played with the Ref Lvl Offset adjustment, but I assume that it would just affect the amount of the effect rather than it's basic behavior. Audyssey had a good idea with Dynamic EQ. They ruined it for me however when they decided to bias the speaker levels more to the surrounds as the volume is lowered.
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post #97 of 128 Old 02-22-2013, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

I would be interested in Dynamic EQ if it just did a modest LFE boost as the volume is lowered. My room layout forces me to sit near my left surround speaker, so enabling Dynamic EQ gives me an earful of left surround. When the feature is disabled the balance of the speaker levels is consistant at every volume. I haven't played with the Ref Lvl Offset adjustment, but I assume that it would just affect the amount of the effect rather than it's basic behavior. Audyssey had a good idea with Dynamic EQ. They ruined it for me however when they decided to bias the speaker levels more to the surrounds as the volume is lowered.

but since surrounds are typically lower than the mains, they go inaudible before the mains as you turn down. FWIW, what Audyssey did was have several movie mixers do on the fly adjustments to surround levels with different master levels, and take all that data to crunch it and getan algorithm to use. Although it seems to me it can never be absolutely perfect for all content 9and it is definitely a pain for gamers, because surrounds tend to be hotter in games.

Because I had one often occupied way off center seat in a previous room setup, I ended up dropping the level of the right surround, maybe 3 dB. As a practical mateer it seemsed to fix the "too much surround" problem for that far right seat, and when seated in teh middle I frankly didn't ahve the sense i was missing anything from the right. A possible compromise . . .

Because it may be relevant to the applicability of my kludge, DEQ is always on in my system, and typical listening levels for movies are in the -15 to -20 dB range.
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post #98 of 128 Old 02-22-2013, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The Audyssey mic's are "batch-calibrated" and spec'd within +/- 2 dB. They've been tested to meet that spec.

More importantly, if you use the receiver's test tones and an SPL meter to measure the SPL after running Audyssey, the effects of Audyssey are bypassed. Audyssey is out of the signal path when the test tones are played. The internal test tones are worthless for setting the levels if Audyssey is used. Receiver manufacturers should disable the test tones if Audyssey is engaged. The user should only be able to use them if they shut Audyssey off, just like they are only able to use the manual EQ if Audyssey is off.

If you want to verify the Audyssey level settings, the only valid way to do it is to use external test tones like the ones provided by a test disc like Avia or DVE or The 5.1 Audio Toolkit. Then ensure that Audyssey is turned on, and play the tones through Audyssey. For the most part, you will find that Audyssey has gotten the relative calibration correct; all the speakers and sub(s) will measure the same. The absolute calibration may be off by 2 dB or so, due to the tolerances of the mic. IOW, all the speakers might measure 73 dB instead of 75. That is much less problematic than having the relative calibration incorrect, which is what you would end up with if you use the internal test tones to set the levels post-Audyssey.

Craig

Why would the internal test tones be useless? Are you saying that audyssey adjusts the output levels at some point before actually changing the receivers channel levels? Or, are you saying that the equalization process changes the levels, and thus the levels will be different when using a test disk? When audyssey plays it's test tone during set-up it is measuring levels before any actual equalization occurs, correct? Audyssey on my tx-sr876, according to a radio shack spl meeter, set all the channels at 72db. Being that dynamic eq uses a relationship referenced to 75db and how that level is related to reference level and hearing differences across the frequency spectrum, It would appear that setting the speaker channel levels to 75 db is very important to take advantage of audyssey other features. Any thoughts?
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post #99 of 128 Old 02-22-2013, 04:49 PM
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whn you equalize a speaker, especially if you remove a big peak, you lower it's total output with pink noise, because the big peak doesn't dominate the result any more. So after Aydyssey or a fella with a graphic equalizer equalizes the speakers they likely will have a different SPL reading with any given test signal than they did before the EQ.

when the receiver plays back it's internal test tones, they do not go through the Audyssey equalizer. So the readings we get using those tones are different from, and not refelctive of, the results we would get if Audyssey's corrections wer applied. so if you calibrate your speakers with th internal test tones, the calibration is fairly certain to be wrong for the way you use the receiver - - with Audyssey on.

moreover, the little mics in our Radio Shack meters are certainly no better than the mic capsules that are used in the Audyssey mics. At least for Audyssey's purposes they toss out the ones that deviate moe than 2 dB from the expected microphone response. There's really no reason to think that an RS meter is more accurate than the Audyssey system with an appropriate mic.
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post #100 of 128 Old 02-22-2013, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

whn you equalize a speaker, especially if you remove a big peak, you lower it's total output with pink noise, because the big peak doesn't dominate the result any more. So after Aydyssey or a fella with a graphic equalizer equalizes the speakers they likely will have a different SPL reading with any given test signal than they did before the EQ.

when the receiver plays back it's internal test tones, they do not go through the Audyssey equalizer. So the readings we get using those tones are different from, and not refelctive of, the results we would get if Audyssey's corrections wer applied. so if you calibrate your speakers with th internal test tones, the calibration is fairly certain to be wrong for the way you use the receiver - - with Audyssey on.

moreover, the little mics in our Radio Shack meters are certainly no better than the mic capsules that are used in the Audyssey mics. At least for Audyssey's purposes they toss out the ones that deviate moe than 2 dB from the expected microphone response. There's really no reason to think that an RS meter is more accurate than the Audyssey system with an appropriate mic.

Makes sense. Thanks.
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post #101 of 128 Old 02-23-2013, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

whn you equalize a speaker, especially if you remove a big peak, you lower it's total output with pink noise, because the big peak doesn't dominate the result any more. So after Aydyssey or a fella with a graphic equalizer equalizes the speakers they likely will have a different SPL reading with any given test signal than they did before the EQ.

when the receiver plays back it's internal test tones, they do not go through the Audyssey equalizer. So the readings we get using those tones are different from, and not refelctive of, the results we would get if Audyssey's corrections wer applied. so if you calibrate your speakers with th internal test tones, the calibration is fairly certain to be wrong for the way you use the receiver - - with Audyssey on.

moreover, the little mics in our Radio Shack meters are certainly no better than the mic capsules that are used in the Audyssey mics. At least for Audyssey's purposes they toss out the ones that deviate moe than 2 dB from the expected microphone response. There's really no reason to think that an RS meter is more accurate than the Audyssey system with an appropriate mic.
Great explanation! Thanks.

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post #102 of 128 Old 02-23-2013, 05:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

I was actually referring back to this statement of yours

"One is calibrating the sub output using pink noise and the subwoofer's gain potentiometer. The AVR's subwoofer gain setting is set to +/- 0. Audyssey or the AVR doesn't have the ability to change the subwoofer's gain setting. Since Audyssey is going be run, I set Audyssey to factory settings and then start the calibration efforts so this way, all of Audyssey's old settings are no longer a part of the calibration effort."

Since Audyssey ignores all the settings, there's no reason to "set Audyssey to factory settings" assuming that means changing some setting in the receiver. all of Audyssey's "old settings" are not a part of the calibration effort regardless of what we do before starting calibration. Because Audyssey ignores those settings, making them irrelevant to the new calibration.

I'm trying guys, give me a break here. Please.

What is missed, and I thought I had communicated this point, DSPeaker, Anti-Mode is being run before running Audyssey. Audyssey's recommendations to the AVR impacts everything before Audyssey is run.

My procedure is to reset the AVR back to factory settings so everything is at zero. After fussing with subwoofer placement, best placement position verified with REW, all subwoofer parametric controls set to zero, rerun REW for a baseline reading.

Then calibrate individual subwoofer gain (volume) settings at the MLP to as close as possible, to 75dB and tweak parametric settings to get the best possible REW reading.

Then run Anti-Mode, retweaking parametric settings as necessary to get the best possible REW reading.

Then run Audyssey, after which, again, retweak parametric settings to get the best REW possible readings.

Put measuring gear away and enjoy the results.

Through personal experience, I've found the above mentioned method works the best for our situation and the above is verified by REW. According to scientific principal, I should be able to take the above procedure, into any venue, any subwoofer system and be able to get similar, best expected results.

(All three of our sound meters are calibrated, REW sound meter system is calibrated, recording microphone is calibrated and sound meter calibration is verified using a sound meter calibration device at 94dB @ 1kHz. Sound meter chosen for use is spec'd, Type 2, +/- 1.5dB with internal oscillator for internal calibration purposes with a low range reading of 30dB. From everything I've read on sound meters, sound meters are limited to a low sensitivity of 31.5Hz.)

There are rules to what I'm doing and they must pass WAF and one of those rules are, no sound treatments allowed. What is in the room's decor is what's going be and nothing will be added to improve room acoustics. The subwoofers must not be prominent in the room and in the case of subwoofers, less is more; out of sight. The room when finished, must look like a normal, contemporary living room set in the year 2013. The WAF force is powerful indeed. The subs being used are eighteen year old boxes, tuned to 28Hz. The subwoofers would be lucky to fetch $200.00/ea and that's with new drivers and radiators that cost $185.00. The subwoofer, with recently replaced drivers and radiators measures a solid 22Hz.

At this point, my opinion, the only way to improve the graph is to add a third subwoofer. I have already set up a test tone and had my wife walk the room so she could familiarize herself with how sound waves interact with a room's acoustics. A sonic picture is worth a thousand words and she understands. If one were to wonder why am I doing this with subwoofers that are so limited, it's because this is a hobby (entertainment) and the goal is to get the best possible out of the worst possible; real world experience.

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post #103 of 128 Old 02-23-2013, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I'm trying guys, give me a break here. Please.
OK... smile.gif

Please return the favor.
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

What is missed, and I thought I had communicated this point, DSPeaker, Anti-Mode is being run before running Audyssey. Audyssey's recommendations to the AVR impacts everything before Audyssey is run.

My procedure is to reset the AVR back to factory settings so everything is at zero.
Got it. So you do a factory reset on the AVR so that nothing in the AVR is impacting the AntiMode. I'm with you so far.
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After fussing with subwoofer placement, best placement position verified with REW, all subwoofer parametric controls set to zero, rerun REW for a baseline reading.
Excellent. This is the correct procedure. I assume you are measuring each sub independently and then both subs combined. Also, you should be measuring just the subs, without the speakers. The blend between speakers and subs is immaterial at this point in the process, and having the speakers on just confuses the issue. You will optimize the blend between speakers and subs later in the process. Also, any adjustments you make to the subwoofer Distance settings at this point will be ignored and discarded once you run Audyssey, so there is no benefit at all to trying to optimize the blend at this point.
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Then calibrate individual subwoofer gain (volume) settings at the MLP to as close as possible, to 75dB...
Well, that's level-matching, and that's fine if that's what you want. If headroom issues are not a problem, that can work as well as anything. (I personally prefer gain-matching, but use whatever you want at this stage.) However, in some previous posts, you've described a process whereby you gain-match them at 1 meter first, and then level-match them at the listening position afterwards. I suggest you do one or the other, but not both.
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...and tweak parametric settings to get the best possible REW reading.
What "parametric settings" are you tweaking at this stage? If you've level-matched them prior to this, that's all you want to do before adding your EQ's. Any other changes should be made AFTER EQ.
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Then run Anti-Mode, retweaking parametric settings as necessary to get the best possible REW reading.
Again, what "parametric settings" are you tweaking at this point?
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Then run Audyssey, after which, again, retweak parametric settings to get the best REW possible readings.
At this stage, the only settings you should need to change would be the speaker crossover points, and the subwoofer Distance setting. You should only raise the crossovers, never lower them. Audyssey looks for the -3 dB point of the speakers and sets it filters only to that point. If you lower the crossovers, Audyssey will not provide any correction below that point. It is fine to raise them, unless raising them causes subwoofer localization. Audyssey will still provide correction above the crossovers recommended by the AVR.

After you've optimized the crossovers, you run the subs with the speakers and adjust the subwoofer Distance to optimize the blend between the speakers and subs. I have described that process to you before, so please refer to those prior posts.

Once you have done these things, there should be no need, and no benefit, from changing any other settings, either on the subwoofer itself, or in the AVR, (unless you want to raise the suboofer trim in the AVR because you "prefer" to run the subs a little hot, which you have said before you don't like to do.) Things you should avoid doing after running Audyssey:
1. Changing the Volume Levels on the subwoofers
2. Changing the Phase or Polarity settings on the subwoofers
3. Changing the speaker or subwoofer trims in the AVR based on the internal test tones and an SPL meter, (see Jhaz's excellent explanation of the rationale for this a few posts up.)
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Put measuring gear away and enjoy the results.
Exactly! smile.gif
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

(All three of our sound meters are calibrated, REW sound meter system is calibrated, recording microphone is calibrated and sound meter calibration is verified using a sound meter calibration device at 94dB @ 1kHz. Sound meter chosen for use is spec'd, Type 2, +/- 1.5dB with internal oscillator for internal calibration purposes with a low range reading of 30dB. From everything I've read on sound meters, sound meters are limited to a low sensitivity of 31.5Hz.)
What SPL meter are you using? Not all SPL meters or microphones are limited to 31.5 Hz. A calibrated mic can easily provide flat readings into the infrasonic range. A professionally calibrated mic comes with a calibration file that you enter into REW. It then uses the cal file to adjust the response and provide accurate readings to it's calibrated limits.
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There are rules to what I'm doing and they must pass WAF and one of those rules are, no sound treatments allowed. What is in the room's decor is what's going be and nothing will be added to improve room acoustics. The subwoofers must not be prominent in the room and in the case of subwoofers, less is more; out of sight. The room when finished, must look like a normal, contemporary living room set in the year 2013. The WAF force is powerful indeed. The subs being used are eighteen year old boxes, tuned to 28Hz. The subwoofers would be lucky to fetch $200.00/ea and that's with new drivers and radiators that cost $185.00. The subwoofer, with recently replaced drivers and radiators measures a solid 22Hz.
How are you measuring 22Hz if your SPL meter is limited to 31.5 Hz?
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At this point, my opinion, the only way to improve the graph is to add a third subwoofer.
Would you add another sub like the one you have, or some new sub? A significantly better sub, like some of the ones you've said you are considering, would totally overwhelm your current subs. It would be very difficult to integrate your current subs with a Funky Waves, Seaton or Rythmic sub.

Craig

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post #104 of 128 Old 02-23-2013, 09:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I assume you are measuring each sub independently and then both subs combined.

Yes.

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Also, you should be measuring just the subs, without the speakers.

Yes.

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Also, any adjustments you make to the subwoofer Distance settings at this point will be ignored and discarded once you run Audyssey,

Distance setting is set for initial calibration and running of Anti-Mode. Expectedly, Audyssey will do what Audyssey will do.

Quote:
Well, that's level-matching, and that's fine if that's what you want. If headroom issues are not a problem, that can work as well as anything. (I personally prefer gain-matching, but use whatever you want at this stage.) However, in some previous posts, you've described a process whereby you gain-match them at 1 meter first, and then level-match them at the listening position afterwards. I suggest you do one or the other, but not both.

What ever I posted prior to the above, ignore as in what I'm posting, the subwoofer's gain is all that matters and is all that's being used to calibrate the subs with. The AVR level setting is zero as everything else is set to zero with the exception of hand entered speaker distance settings for the subs.

Pink noise is run through each sub individually, AVR level setting is +/- 0 and the subwoofer's gain potentiometer is used to increase/decrease the sound meter reading. As per Bill's recommendations, readings were made at one foot as opposed to one meter. Final calibration reading is made at the MLP, both subs operational.

Quote:
What "parametric settings" are you tweaking at this stage?

Phase and the frequency limiter filter on the subwoofers. All changes are made one change at a time and the affect on the room's acoustics are noted with a REW measurement. The best possible measurement is achieved before moving to the next EQ step.

Quote:
At this stage, the only settings you should need to change would be the speaker crossover points, and the subwoofer Distance setting.

Not sure where you're at in the process. Even after Audyssey has been run, I further tweak parametric settings such as phase and the subwoofer's frequency limit potentiometer. In our room, the most reactive parametric setting is the phase control, followed by the subwoofer's frequency limiter potentiometer; call this potentiometer what you will as it limits the upper frequencies the sub is capable of producing. The filters on the two subs are set asymmetrically as this gives the best response or room measurement. The phase on the two subs are set asymmetrically, as this gives the best response or room measurement.

The next most reactive feature is the crossover point for the main speakers and the least reactive setting is distance. All verified using REW. There are no room treatments in the room and the room is a "VERY" reactive or bright room (lots of echos) but the wife says no to room treatments. One small parametric setting change will totally change the acoustical response in the room. Using benefit of REW, one can easily see the acoustical changes taking place. Without room treatments, this is as good as it gets.

Quote:
What SPL meter are you using? Not all SPL meters or microphones are limited to 31.5 Hz.

Microphones are not sound meters and sound meters are not microphones although each overlap and the EQ process is dependent on both. My understanding, based on extensive research regarding many different sound meters, Type 2 sound meters are limited to 31.5Hz but of course, microphones can go lower although sound meters are spec limited. Of the many sound meters I researched, I never found a Type 2, sound meter spec'd for better than 31.5Hz.

Quote:
A calibrated mic can easily provide flat readings into the infrasonic range. A professionally calibrated mic comes with a calibration file that you enter into REW. It then uses the cal file to adjust the response and provide accurate readings to it's calibrated limits.

In our case, REW measurements are obtained using a microphone that has a calibration file.

Quote:
How are you measuring 22Hz if your SPL meter is limited to 31.5 Hz?

I'm not using the SPL meter to obtain room measurements with. A calibrated sound meter is used to calibrate the initial subwoofer output and a calibrated microphone is used to obtain REW measured room readings.

Quote:
Would you add another sub like the one you have, or some new sub? A significantly better sub, like some of the ones you've said you are considering, would totally overwhelm your current subs. It would be very difficult to integrate your current subs with a Funky Waves, Seaton or Rythmic sub.

This I understand. As I've posted, all that's being done is for education purposes. Lab work if you will. Expectedly, a third sub would improve on my situation but one would reasonably considered the purchase as throwing money away because in the end, at a later time and point, a new subwoofer system is going be introduced. But this will take place after dental, bills and a hall bath are replaced. When the subwoofer system is replaced, without complication, the new system will easily be dialed in.

An aside, I'm no longer in need of either the Seaton or Funk Audio subs as the subs are hidden and the reason for the Funk Audio sub was aesthetics. Kinda hard to show off aesthetics when hidden behind corner placed great chairs. tongue.gif And in the case of the WAF, it seems our listening pleasure is limited to -20 to -15 MVC. Time will tell what we finally go with but what ever we do go with, will have a strong WAF influence.

She's quick to show her displeasure in the form of tears. Not much a man can do. tongue.gif

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post #105 of 128 Old 02-23-2013, 10:37 AM
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Distance setting is set for initial calibration and running of Anti-Mode. Expectedly, Audyssey will do what Audyssey will do.
The AntiMode is a subwoofer EQ. It doesn't do anything to the speakers. The speakers won't even be on while you do the calibration. Without the speakers on, the subwoofer Distance setting is immaterial. There is no benefit to setting any Distance settings prior to running the AntiMode.

From the 8033 manual: "For best results run your AVR's calibration program AFTER the AntiMode calibration has finished."

Also: "Crossovers and Low Pass Filters in the AVR do not affect calibration since they take place before the AntiMode in the signal chain. Also, any other equipment connected before the AntiMode will not interfere with the calibration process."
http://www.dspeaker.com/fileadmin/datasheets/dspeaker/antimode8033CinemaSIIen.pdf (page 6)

Although they don't specifically refer to the Distance settings, those settings also occur prior to the AntiMode and will have no impact on the calibration.
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

What ever I posted prior to the above, ignore as in what I'm posting, the subwoofer's gain is all that matters and is all that's being used to calibrate the subs with. The AVR level setting is zero as everything else is set to zero with the exception of hand entered speaker distance settings for the subs.
I'm just trying to understand... smile.gif if you're calibrating the subwoofer levels, the Distance settings are immaterial. The speakers won't even be playing when you're performing the calibration of the subwoofer levels. So, at this point, why bother setting hand-entered Distances? (Edit: Does your AVR have 2 subwoofer outputs that can have different Distance settings? If so, then your process is correct; set the Distances to the settings that yield the best response. However, I was under the impression, (and I could be wrong), that you had a receiver with Audyssey XT. AFAIK, no XT-enabled AVR's have dual sub outputs with separately adjustable Distances.)
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Pink noise is run through each sub individually, AVR level setting is +/- 0 and the subwoofer's gain potentiometer is used to increase/decrease the sound meter reading. As per Bill's recommendations, readings were made at one foot as opposed to one meter. Final calibration reading is made at the MLP, both subs operational.
OK, so you're actually gain-matching and then setting the levels of the combined subs at the LP. That's correct. If they need adjustment, are you adjusting both by exactly the same amount to ensure they stay gain-matched?
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Phase and the frequency limiter filter on the subwoofers. All changes are made one change at a time and the affect on the room's acoustics are noted with a REW measurement. The best possible measurement is achieved before moving to the next EQ step.
This is the part I don't understand. Could you please post the graphs showing the adjustments and improvements?

Actually, if you want to change these parameters, you should do it BEFORE you run the AntiMode. Then the AntiMode can account for them in it's EQ filters. Changing them after the fact, invalidates the EQ filters.
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Not sure where you're at in the process. Even after Audyssey has been run, I further tweak parametric settings such as phase and the subwoofer's frequency limit potentiometer.
Again, I can't see how it is beneficial to change these parameters post-Audyssey. Audyssey's Room Correction filters have been set based on an initial set of measurements. If you change these parameters post-Audyssey, the filters it has set will be invalid. If you want to adjust the phase and LPF, do it pre-Audyssey/pre AntiMode so both Audyssey and AntiMode can "see" the adjustments in their measurements and account for them in the filters.
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

In our room, the most reactive parametric setting is the phase control,
Of course it is. Changing it after running Audyssey will make the subs and/or speakers out-of-phase with each other. However, that can only be detrimental, not beneficial.
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

...followed by the subwoofer's frequency limiter potentiometer; call this potentiometer what you will as it limits the upper frequencies the sub is capable of producing.
It's called a Low Pass Filter or LPF.
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The filters on the two subs are set asymmetrically as this gives the best response or room measurement. The phase on the two subs are set asymmetrically, as this gives the best response or room measurement.
That's fine, but do it pre-Audyssey/AntiMode, not post.
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The next most reactive feature is the crossover point for the main speakers and the least reactive setting is distance. All verified using REW. There are no room treatments in the room and the room is a "VERY" reactive or bright room (lots of echos) but the wife says no to room treatments. One small parametric setting change will totally change the acoustical response in the room. Using benefit of REW, one can easily see the acoustical changes taking place. Without room treatments, this is as good as it gets.
Please post your measurements throughout the whole process. Actually, if you could start a new thread detailing your process, that would be even better.

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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Microphones are not sound meters and sound meters are not microphones although each overlap and the EQ process is dependent on both. My understanding, based on extensive research regarding many different sound meters, Type 2 sound meters are limited to 31.5Hz but of course, microphones can go lower although sound meters are spec limited. Of the many sound meters I researched, I never found a Type 2, sound meter spec'd for better than 31.5Hz.
Take a look at Page 17 of the manual for this Type 2 SPL meter: http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=66666UgxGCuNyXTtOxf6oxMEEVtQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--&fn=1200_2200%20UM_Cov_G_Web.pdf
The -3 dB point of the meter is related to the "Weighting" setting. In the "C-weighting" setting, the -3 dB point look to be about 30 Hz. However, in the "Z-weighting" setting, the meter has flat response down to 5Hz and all the way up to 20 kHz.

In the following chart, you can see that the LF roll of of any SPL meter will be related to the weighting setting:


Here you can see that the -3 dB point of the C-Weighting curve is 31.5 Hz. So the 31.5 Hz limitation is related to the weighting curve used and not to the actual response of the meter.


Craig

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post #106 of 128 Old 02-23-2013, 11:07 AM
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... the subwoofer's frequency limiter potentiometer; call this potentiometer what you will as it limits the upper frequencies the sub is capable of producing. ... The next most reactive feature is the crossover point for the main speakers ...
If you're going to insist on using made-up definitions, at least be consistent and refer to the AVR's crossover as a dual frequency-limiting potentiometer, as it limits both the upper frequencies the sub is capable of producing and the lower frequencies the speakers are capable of producing.

Just a thought... smile.gif
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The AntiMode is a subwoofer EQ. It doesn't do anything to the speakers. The speakers won't even be on while you do the calibration. Without the speakers on, the subwoofer Distance setting is immaterial. There is no benefit to setting any Distance settings prior to running the AntiMode.

Win, lose or draw, that's how I'm doing it and based on what you posed, there's no foul in doing it the way I set things up.

Quote:
From the 8033 manual: "For best results run your AVR's calibration program AFTER the AntiMode calibration has finished."

Which is what I'm doing.

Quote:
Also: "Crossovers and Low Pass Filters in the AVR do not affect calibration since they take place before the AntiMode in the signal chain. Also, any other equipment connected before the AntiMode will not interfere with the calibration process."

I have the manual in front of me. Anti-Mode has to deal with anything sent to it, including anything the AVR sends down the line. I'm not sure what you mean by it won't interfere as anything the AVR introduces into the signal chain will influence the final outcome. One should have all AVR settings set to zero so the AVR will have minimal influence on the output signal sent to Anti_Mode.

Quote:
Although they don't specifically refer to the Distance settings, those settings also occur prior to the AntiMode and will have no impact on the calibration.

That's a yes and no answer in that all settings will influence the output signal going to Anti-Mode and Anti-Mode will measure and set filters according to what the output measures.

Quote:
I'm just trying to understand... smile.gif if you're calibrating the subwoofer levels, the Distance settings are immaterial.

I'm setting the gain potentiometer on the subs, not the levels in the AVR. The distance is set in the AVR to account for distance to the MLP. It's a habit. If it don't matter, then it don't matter.

Quote:
The speakers won't even be playing when you're performing the calibration of the subwoofer levels.

And I said as much. Just pink noise going through the subs.

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If they need adjustment, are you adjusting both by exactly the same amount to ensure they stay gain-matched?

Yes. As close as the bunged up gain potentiometers will allow.

Quote:
This is the part I don't understand. Could you please post the graphs showing the adjustments and improvements?

No can do as I don't save this type of information. I measure, make adjustments, erase past measurements and move forward. No saving of information other than ending measurements.

Last reading made and saved.



Quote:
Actually, if you want to change these parameters, you should do it BEFORE you run the AntiMode. Then the AntiMode can account for them in it's EQ filters. Changing them after the fact, invalidates the EQ filters.

Parametric changes are made pre-Anti-Mode and changes are made post Anti-Mode as I'm going for the best REW reading I can manipulate out of the system.

Best subwoofer placement, verified by REW measurements.

Best subwoofer parametric settings, verified by REW measurements.

Anti-Mode run, base measurement reading made.

Best post Anti-Mode parametric settings made, verified by REW measurements.

Audyssey run, base measurement reading made.

Best post Audyssey parametric settings made, verified by REW measurements.

Anti-Mode has it's limits as does Audyssey. After Anti-Mode efforts are verified to be improved on, then Audyssey is run and the same for Audyssey.

Quote:
Again, I can't see how it is beneficial to change these parameters post-Audyssey. Audyssey's Room Correction filters have been set based on an initial set of measurements. If you change these parameters post-Audyssey, the filters it has set will be invalid. If you want to adjust the phase and LPF, do it pre-Audyssey/pre AntiMode so both Audyssey and AntiMode can "see" the adjustments in their measurements and account for them in the filters.
Of course it is. Changing it after running Audyssey will make the subs and/or speakers out-of-phase with each other. However, that can only be detrimental, not beneficial.

Only if you don't believe that REW is giving honest measurements. FWIW, my last session lasted two afternoons. This is not something I'm doing in five minutes and calling it good.

Quote:
It's called a Low Pass Filter or LPF.

Then despite my displeasure at calling this limit potentiometer by this terminology, a LPF it shall be.

Quote:
That's fine, but do it pre-Audyssey/AntiMode, not post.

Everything is done both pre and post.

Quote:
Please post your measurements throughout the whole process. Actually, if you could start a new thread detailing your process, that would be even better.

As I posted, I measure, make notes, erase, move forward. I don't save measurements. FWIW, this last iteration, all distant and level settings were left at post-Audyssey settings. Only the parametric settings were changed (phase and subwoofer LPF setting) as well as AVR provided crossover for mains & center channel (set to 60Hz) as well as mains set to small and Dynamic Compression set to low. For the purpose of this measurement iteration, distance and level settings were left alone.

Quote:
Take a look at Page 17 of the manual for this Type 2 SPL meter: http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=66666UgxGCuNyXTtOxf6oxMEEVtQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--&fn=1200_2200%20UM_Cov_G_Web.pdf
The -3 dB point of the meter is related to the "Weighting" setting. In the "C-weighting" setting, the -3 dB point look to be about 30 Hz. However, in the "Z-weighting" setting, the meter has flat response down to 5Hz and all the way up to 20 kHz.

I don't know of any forum members using "Z-weighting" and the 3m, Quest, 2200, Type 2, sound meter is a $1,400.00 sound meter. It would be fair to say that the expected use of this meter is outside the scope of our conversation.

Again, research has shown me that readily available (affordable), Type 2 sound meters found on the consumer market are Spec limited in the fashion I posted. How far one wishes to push this string is up to their wallet. I'm simply sharing what research has shown to be true and accurate as to commonly available sound meters which one might consider reasonably priced, which does not include the price of a sound meter calibration device. I post this after two days worth of web based research to augment my understanding of sound meters, the purchase of three sound meters and one sound meter calibration device.

Hopefully you'll see my above as a reasonable effort. Monday or Tuesday I have plans of resetting up the measuring gear to see if some changes will benefit the 37Hz dip the spectrogram shows along with a sympathetic null known as a harmonic. As the spectrogram shows, the room's acoustics would expectedly benefit from the addition of a third subwoofer.

-
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post #108 of 128 Old 02-23-2013, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


I have the manual in front of me. Anti-Mode has to deal with anything sent to it, including anything the AVR sends down the line. I'm not sure what you mean by it won't interfere as anything the AVR introduces into the signal chain will influence the final outcome. One should have all AVR settings set to zero so the AVR will have minimal influence on the output signal sent to Anti_Mode.

That's a yes and no answer in that all settings will influence the output signal going to Anti-Mode and Anti-Mode will measure and set filters according to what the output measures.

During the calibration, the AVR does not send any output signals to the antimode. The antimode produces its own sweeps, measures the response and creates the filters accordingly. You could connect a sub to the antimode and run its calibration without an AVR connected at all. No settings in the AVR effect the antimode filters.
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Again, research has shown me that readily available (affordable), Type 2 sound meters found on the consumer market are Spec limited in the fashion I posted. How far one wishes to push this string is up to their wallet. I'm simply sharing what research has shown to be true and accurate as to commonly available sound meters which one might consider reasonably priced, which does not include the price of a sound meter calibration device. I post this after two days worth of web based research to augment my understanding of sound meters, the purchase of three sound meters and one sound meter calibration device.

-

I think you missed Craig Johns point. Most of the affordable meters do not have a Z weighting mode, so the specs are based on C weighting being applied. If you use the C weighting adjustment built into REW, many will be relatively accurate below their specs. I posted this before, but I don't think you read it because you thought I was trolling. It shows measurements of 3 different digital RS SPL meters. All 3 measured fairly accurate from about 20hz - 200hz and 2 of them down to 10hz. It also shows an analog SPL meter measured within about 3db with the generic calibration file.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1328136/measurement-mic-shootout-emm-6-wm-61a-rs-33-2055-audyssey

Here is another one. Again it shows a digital radio shack SPL meter is relatively accurate down to about 20hz after applying a C-Weighted compensation.

http://www.realtraps.com/art_microphones.htm

Of course calibrated mics will be more accurate and I would have more confidence in their measurements, but I don't believe SPL meters should be completely dismissed if used from 20hz - 200hz and with the correct compensation. If someone already owns an SPL meter and does not want to purchase a calibrated mic, they can still gather a lot of useful measurements below 35hz.

-Mike
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post #109 of 128 Old 02-23-2013, 01:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

During the calibration, the AVR does not send any output signals to the antimode. The antimode produces its own sweeps, measures the response and creates the filters accordingly. You could connect a sub to the antimode and run its calibration without an AVR connected at all. No settings in the AVR effect the antimode filters.

That's good to know.

Quote:
I think you missed Craig Johns point. Most of the affordable meters do not have a Z weighting mode, so the specs are based on C weighting being applied. If you use the C weighting adjustment built into REW, many will be relatively accurate below their specs. I posted this before, but I don't think you read it because you thought I was trolling. It shows measurements of 3 different digital RS SPL meters. All 3 measured fairly accurate from about 20hz - 200hz and 2 of them down to 10hz. It also shows an analog SPL meter measured within about 3db with the generic calibration file.

My comments regard the sound meter itself and the sound meter is limited irrespective of REW. It sounds like what you're saying is, you're using the sound meter's microphone but the internal algorithms of REW for the sound meter part. In our case, I use a microphone for measurements and our sound meter is only used for the purpose of calibrating REW's sound meter function. As to Craig's comments, it read as if the cited sound meter was something everybody was using (including "Z" weighting) and showed that Type 2 sound meters were spec'd to <31.5Hz. Hence the rational of my response.

Quote:
Again it shows a digital radio shack SPL meter is relatively accurate down to about 20hz after applying a C-Weighted compensation.

I have a Radio Shack, digital sound meter (Cat. no. 33-2055) and the manual, in "C" weighting, specs it down to 32Hz. (Page eight of the provided manual) I'm not arguing, just sharing what I have in front of me and what corroborating research has shown consumer grade sound meters (<$250.00) are spec'd at.

Quote:
Of course calibrated mics will be more accurate and I would have more confidence in their measurements, but I don't believe SPL meters should be completely dismissed if used from 20hz - 200hz and with the correct compensation. If someone already owns an SPL meter and does not want to purchase a calibrated mic, they can still gather a lot of useful measurements below 35hz.

I'm not saying anybody can't do what you suggest. If Radio Shack spec's their sound meters at 32Hz (which is a rounded 31.5Hz), I go with that number and when I share, that's the number I stick with. If my doing so makes me come across as a tool, my apologies. These are issues that in private, with much effort, I've challenged myself on, looked at manuals, surfed the web and adjusted for accordingly. These are not issues taken lightly and I've done much personal research on to find out what the truth is on these issues so as to find out what issues I'm stuck with.

In the end, like many here, for the effort, I have three sound meters, a sound meter calibration device, calibrated microphone, room measuring software, a set of fifty foot cables to run from the office desktop PC to the living room, a Jones for more gear and the blessings of my wife as long as I don't break the bank, occasionally put my toys away (cables, microphone/stand) and promise not to ruin the contemporary look of her living room.

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post #110 of 128 Old 02-23-2013, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I have the manual in front of me. Anti-Mode has to deal with anything sent to it, including anything the AVR sends down the line. I'm not sure what you mean by it won't interfere as anything the AVR introduces into the signal chain will influence the final outcome. One should have all AVR settings set to zero so the AVR will have minimal influence on the output signal sent to Anti_Mode.
If you believe this, then why not set the Distance to zero? Setting it to some manually entered distance is adding *some* delay. Why not just set it to zero?

Look, the Distance settings are "relative" settings. IOW, they are used to time align the speakers and subs relative to each other. When you are just playing the subwoofer, there is nothing for it to be relative to. So it doesn't matter where you set it if the subs are playing in isolation.

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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

That's a yes and no answer in that all settings will influence the output signal going to Anti-Mode and Anti-Mode will measure and set filters according to what the output measures.
I'm setting the gain potentiometer on the subs, not the levels in the AVR. The distance is set in the AVR to account for distance to the MLP. It's a habit. If it don't matter, then it don't matter.
You're right... it doesn't matter.
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No can do as I don't save this type of information. I measure, make adjustments, erase past measurements and move forward. No saving of information other than ending measurements.
When you set to measure again, save the measurements. It would be interesting to discuss them.
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Parametric changes are made pre-Anti-Mode and changes are made post Anti-Mode as I'm going for the best REW reading I can manipulate out of the system.

Best subwoofer placement, verified by REW measurements.

Best subwoofer parametric settings, verified by REW measurements.

Anti-Mode run, base measurement reading made.

Best post Anti-Mode parametric settings made, verified by REW measurements.

Audyssey run, base measurement reading made.

Best post Audyssey parametric settings made, verified by REW measurements.
I would really like to see the improvements you get with your adjustments to phase and LPF.

Craig

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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If you believe this, then why not set the Distance to zero? Setting it to some manually entered distance is adding *some* delay. Why not just set it to zero?

Habit. I've been manually setting distances for some twenty years and if it don't matter, then it don't matter.

As to measuring, saving and posting the "Full Monty," I'd really like to duck that request as I make many, many, many minute adjustment/measurements. I start with a base measurement, adjust, measure, walk into the next room, adjust and measure to the point of making myself physically ill from the emotional stress as I watch changes visually walk back-n-forth across the measurement graph. Unfortunately, in our living room, Newton's third law of motion applies and it can be very vexing to find the balance. I know I sound like a Nancy but I take things on our end very personal as for entertainment purposes, I'm trying to make a purse out of a sow's ear and I'm very close to succeeding..

I'll work the process to a point where it's time for the wife to reenter the living room for her afternoon television viewing pleasure and work through what was done, allowing the information to be processed into the subconscious and then decide what to do the next day. At a point, I simply call the measuring process moot, erase past readings, take a new base reading and move forward. All I care about (find important) is what's in front of me as I don't measure with a rear view mirror in mind. A full secession may consist of two or three smaller secessions, with time off in between and each smaller secession will last two or three afternoons. I'm not going try to capture and discuss such a length process as that doesn't interest me; too much work as opposed to being fun and entertaining.

FWIW, every iteration, I'll destroy what I did before as that was then and this is now. In this case, I live in the moment. What is REW displaying on the screen today? What REW is showing, is all that counts. Monday or Tuesday next week, the wife has been informed that once again I'll be setting up to see how changes I came up with, will affect the two problems I'm having. One should be able to see the aberrations at 37Hz and 74Hz of the posted spectrogram.

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post #112 of 128 Old 02-23-2013, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Habit. I've been manually setting distances for some twenty years and if it don't matter, then it don't matter.

As to measuring, saving and posting the "Full Monty," I'd really like to duck that request as I make many, many, many minute adjustment/measurements. I start with a base measurement, adjust, measure, walk into the next room, adjust and measure to the point of making myself physically ill from the emotional stress as I watch changes visually walk back-n-forth across the measurement graph. Unfortunately, in our living room, Newton's third law of motion applies and it can be very vexing to find the balance. I know I sound like a Nancy but I take things on our end very personal as for entertainment purposes, I'm trying to make a purse out of a sow's ear and I'm very close to succeeding..

I'll work the process to a point where it's time for the wife to reenter the living room for her afternoon television viewing pleasure and work through what was done, allowing the information to be processed into the subconscious and then decide what to do the next day. At a point, I simply call the measuring process moot, erase past readings, take a new base reading and move forward. All I care about (find important) is what's in front of me as I don't measure with a rear view mirror in mind. A full secession may consist of two or three smaller secessions, with time off in between and each smaller secession will last two or three afternoons. I'm not going try to capture and discuss such a length process as that doesn't interest me; too much work as opposed to being fun and entertaining.

FWIW, every iteration, I'll destroy what I did before as that was then and this is now. In this case, I live in the moment. What is REW displaying on the screen today? What REW is showing, is all that counts. Monday or Tuesday next week, the wife has been informed that once again I'll be setting up to see how changes I came up with, will affect the two problems I'm having. One should be able to see the aberrations at 37Hz and 74Hz of the posted spectrogram.

-
You don't need to save *all* of them. I just want to see a post-Audyssey measurement with no tinkering, and then another measurement that shows an improvement after you've tinkered with the phase and/or LPF's of the subs.

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@ BeeMan458
I wonder how do you connect the Antimode to your subs (cos you said you adjust the distance before running Antimode). Perhaps you can draw a simple hook up diagram.
During the Antimode calibration, the AVR has nothing to do with it. It's not even in the chain. The only components involved are Antimode and subwoofers. That's all.

What BeeMan458 did is manually adjust EQ (through phase control), run Antimode EQ, manually adjust EQ, run Audyssey EQ, manually adjust EQ. That's lots of EQ. And he feels that the EQ provided by the Antimode is not good enough. Why not just buy a miniDSP and EQ it all by yourself...could have save some money there.
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@ BeeMan458
I wonder how do you connect the Antimode to your subs (cos you said you adjust the distance before running Antimode). Perhaps you can draw a simple hook up diagram.
During the Antimode calibration, the AVR has nothing to do with it. It's not even in the chain. The only components involved are Antimode and subwoofers. That's all.

It's hooked up according to the directions. confused.gif Craig wrote about what you're sharing in your above, earlier today and I responded that I do it out of twenty years of habit.

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Why not just buy a miniDSP and EQ it all by yourself...could have save some money there.

Didn't find out about the MiniDSP until after buying the Anti-Mode.
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Dynamic EQ increases the volume of surrounds relative to the mains as audio gets softer. This shifting of the soundstage from the front to the sides is why I prefer to leave Dynamic EQ disabled in my HT.

I also like to leave Dynamic EQ disabled for the same reasons.
But, I find that if you listen to movies well below reference level, bass output almost totally disappears.
So your forced to turn on Dynamic EQ, to get any resemblance of bass while watching flicks.

Classic "Catch-22" situation.

BTW - I prefer watching movies in the THX Cinema setting.
Should I disable THX Re-EQ if I have Dynamic EQ on?

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post #116 of 128 Old 03-25-2013, 09:15 AM
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I've found that if I turn down my surrounds 3db, the Dynamic EQ works great.

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post #117 of 128 Old 03-25-2013, 10:15 AM
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I've found that if I turn down my surrounds 3db, the Dynamic EQ works great.

I'll have to give that a try.
Because Dynamic EQ, has a tendency to have the surrounds, overpower the front speakers.

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post #118 of 128 Old 03-25-2013, 10:30 AM
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Yup, but if you just turn down the surrounds you get to keep the benefits from the increased bass at lower volumes. biggrin.gif

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post #119 of 128 Old 03-25-2013, 05:09 PM
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Yup, but if you just turn down the surrounds you get to keep the benefits from the increased bass at lower volumes. biggrin.gif

Ah, the joys of reference bass.

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post #120 of 128 Old 03-25-2013, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

I've found that if I turn down my surrounds 3db, the Dynamic EQ works great.

I'll have to give that a try.
Because Dynamic EQ, has a tendency to have the surrounds, overpower the front speakers.

There's no perfect solution because Dynamic EQ is dynamic. With DEQ the soundstage increasingly shifts from the front to the sides as the volume gets softer. Picking a single offset by lowering the surround gain a few dB will give you surround volume that's too low compared to the mains when the volume is loud and is still not low enough when the volume is soft.

Audyssey should eliminate the soundstage shifting feature from DEQ until they put more development effort into it. As it stands, DEQ doesn't take into account non-ideal speaker placements like near-field surround speakers that will overwhelm a listener if the relative volume is shifted to the surrounds.
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