Questions abut setting up 2 subs. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 02-17-2013, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Tax return should be here soon. The moment it's deposit into my account I will be ordering a 2nd svs sb12-nsd. But my question is it a good idea to use a y adapter to hookup the 2 subs to my denon 1913 when it only has one sub output? Will it affect the sound quality? Will audyssey work properly calibrating 2 subs? Or will I be better off upgrading to a receiver with 2 sub output?
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post #2 of 18 Old 02-17-2013, 03:38 PM
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Unless you are willing to over a grand out of pocket for a receiver that will eq 2 subs, the y-adapter is the only way to go. Having 2 sub outputs doesn't necessarily mean a receiver will eq 2 subs. Using a Y adapter should not affect the signal as those subs are powered.

You can only eq 1 sub right now so you will either need to level match or gain match them.

Someone posted a link on the subject. I will try and find it.


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1282064/two-subs-gain-matching-vs-level-matching

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post #3 of 18 Old 02-17-2013, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you, I have searched but couldn't find anything on this site.
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post #4 of 18 Old 02-17-2013, 03:50 PM
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Good deal.

Projector: Benq W1070 1080p 2D/3D
Screen: 120" Elite fixed frame
AVR: Onkyo TX-NR809
Mains: Klipsch RF-62ii x 2
Center: Klipsch RC-62ii
Surrounds: Klipsch RS-42ii x 2
Subs: Dual Hsu VTF-15H's
Sonos-Play 5 and Play 3
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post #5 of 18 Old 02-18-2013, 08:37 AM
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post #6 of 18 Old 02-18-2013, 11:28 AM
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You really have no choice but to use Y adapter. Since your receiver only has one sub channel, what I suggest doing is to have the gain knob on the back of each sub set to the same value. Place the subs in mirrored positions each about the same distance from your main listening spot.
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post #7 of 18 Old 02-18-2013, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

Tax return should be here soon. The moment it's deposit into my account I will be ordering a 2nd svs sb12-nsd. But my question is it a good idea to use a y adapter to hookup the 2 subs to my denon 1913 when it only has one sub output? Will it affect the sound quality? Will audyssey work properly calibrating 2 subs? Or will I be better off upgrading to a receiver with 2 sub output?
Dont worry about the y adapter, you will be fine. From the last time I checked, you will have to move up to an almost top of the line receiver to have Audyssey set both subs. I think the Denon 4311 is the starting point on the Denon line.

So to set both the subs and how I was told!

Before you run Audyssey go into Speaker Level Calibration and run the White Noise for the Subs. Make sure the AVR trim level for the Sub is set to 0db. Next have the 1st Sub ON and the 2nd OFF. Use a SPL meter at your listening position and adjust the gain/volume on that Sub's amp to get 75db on the SPL meter at the listening position. Next have the 1st Sub OFF and the 2nd ON. Now do the same thing, adjust the gain/volume on that Sub's amp to get 75db on the SPL meter at the listening position. Then turn BOTH subs ON and you will read approx 78db at listening position. Now go ahead and run Audyssey. After Audyssey has run through, you can go back thru the Speaker Level Calibration and go ahead and use your SPL meter at the listening position. If you set your 7 speakers to 75db on the SPL meter then it is calibrated to reference level, then put the Sub trim Level back to 0db on the AVR and then it is calibrated to reference level as well. Now from there on, you can adjust things to your liking.

My fronts are set to 76db, my center is at 77db. The side surrounds are at 74db on the SPL, I have my sub at +4 in the AVR, but I like bass!!
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post #8 of 18 Old 02-18-2013, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

Dont worry about the y adapter, you will be fine. From the last time I checked, you will have to move up to an almost top of the line receiver to have Audyssey set both subs. I think the Denon 4311 is the starting point on the Denon line.

So to set both the subs and how I was told!

Before you run Audyssey go into Speaker Level Calibration and run the White Noise for the Subs. Make sure the AVR trim level for the Sub is set to 0db. Next have the 1st Sub ON and the 2nd OFF. Use a SPL meter at your listening position and adjust the gain/volume on that Sub's amp to get 75db on the SPL meter at the listening position. Next have the 1st Sub OFF and the 2nd ON. Now do the same thing, adjust the gain/volume on that Sub's amp to get 75db on the SPL meter at the listening position. Then turn BOTH subs ON and you will read approx 78db at listening position. Now go ahead and run Audyssey. After Audyssey has run through, you can go back thru the Speaker Level Calibration and go ahead and use your SPL meter at the listening position. If you set your 7 speakers to 75db on the SPL meter then it is calibrated to reference level, then put the Sub trim Level back to 0db on the AVR and then it is calibrated to reference level as well. Now from there on, you can adjust things to your liking.

My fronts are set to 76db, my center is at 77db. The side surrounds are at 74db on the SPL, I have my sub at +4 in the AVR, but I like bass!!
Well, yeah, that's the "level-matching" way to do it. However, there are few flaws in your process. First, in the opinion of many on the forum, myself included, gain-matching as described by KidHorn, or as described in the linked thread above, is a superior method over level matching, as you don't end up with mis-matched, identical subs.

Second, if you run Audyssey and then re-set the levels afterwards using the internal test tones, you are bypassing Audyssey's room correction; it is not engaged when running the internal test tones. So, the compensation provided by Audyssey's EQ is out of the signal path. When you re-engage Audyssey, the levels will no longer be correct.

Do whatever you please with your own system, but the OP would be better served to follow the standard protocols:

Audyssey Setup Guide (2012-05-07)-1.doc 170k .doc file
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File Type: doc Audyssey Setup Guide (2012-05-07)-1.doc (169.5 KB, 37 views)

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post #9 of 18 Old 02-18-2013, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Craig for the help and the info And to everyone else that gave me some insight. I greatly appreciate it. Now onto the spl meter question. Is there a certain brand or model I should get? Purchasing a cheaper meter do the same thing as an expensive one?
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post #10 of 18 Old 02-18-2013, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Well, yeah, that's the "level-matching" way to do it. However, there are few flaws in your process. First, in the opinion of many on the forum, myself included, gain-matching as described by KidHorn, or as described in the linked thread above, is a superior method over level matching, as you don't end up with mis-matched, identical subs.

Second, if you run Audyssey and then re-set the levels afterwards using the internal test tones, you are bypassing Audyssey's room correction; it is not engaged when running the internal test tones. So, the compensation provided by Audyssey's EQ is out of the signal path. When you re-engage Audyssey, the levels will no longer be correct.

Do whatever you please with your own system, but the OP would be better served to follow the standard protocols:

Audyssey Setup Guide (2012-05-07)-1.doc 170k .doc file

That is a super helpful guide. Thanks for posting that Craig.
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post #11 of 18 Old 02-18-2013, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

Thank you Craig for the help and the info And to everyone else that gave me some insight. I greatly appreciate it. Now onto the spl meter question. Is there a certain brand or model I should get? Purchasing a cheaper meter do the same thing as an expensive one?
If you are going to gain-match the subs, you don't need an SPL meter. The only mic you need is the Audyssey mic. If you want to go beyond what Audyssey does, you'll need measurement gear such as REW, XTZ or OmniMic. If you get REW, the recommended mic is a USB mic. See this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs

Look for AustinJerry's excellent write up of the process.

If you get XTZ or OmniMic, they come with their own mic. I haven't used my SPL meter in my HT for years.

Craig

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post #12 of 18 Old 02-18-2013, 06:16 PM
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Below is one of the tips i recently found while googling. i think one can even do this without the suggested spl meter by skipping step 2. After step 1, go to step 3 but only use one sub at a time. Start with sub #1 by dialing the sub's volume (knob on the back) at 9 o'clock. in my Denon/Klipsch set up, 12 o'clock is too high resulting in a setting of -12. From here, follow step 3 below. Write down the result because you want the same result for the other sub. Repeat with subwoofer # 2. Then proceed to step 4 and 5.
If you have spl meter, just follow the whole sequence below from step 1 to 5. Thanks.

Step 1: Subwoofer placement. Make sure that the distance from each sub to the primary listening spot is exactly the same. This is because Audyssey calculates distance for only one subwoofer, and if the distance to the two subwoofers is significantly different, the sub delay setting will not produce optimal results. (Unfortunately, this places a severe restriction on where the subs can be placed in most listening rooms. Many experts recommend moving the subs around to achieve the best bass response, but it two subs are used, Audyssey calibration will not be optimal unless the subs are exactly the same distance from the listener.)

Step 2: Setting the subwoofer levels. Since the acoustic characteristics of the room are likely to be somewhat different for each of the subwoofers because they are in different locations, it’s important to set the volume level for each subwoofer to achieve roughly the same volume at the primary listening spot. This is accomplished as follows:
1. Place a Radio Shack sound pressure meter at the primary listening spot.
2. In the AV receiver setup menu, select Speaker Config/Channel Level, and generate a tone for the subwoofer.
3. Adjust the audio output levels on each subwoofer to achieve the same level at the primary listening spot, as shown on the SPL.
Note: at this point we don’t know if the volume levels on the subs are the correct levels-we only know that the settings produce a balanced output. The next step will determine if the volume settings are too high, too low, or just right.

Step 3: Using Audyssey to determine the initial subwoofer volume setting. Do the following:
1. Run the Audyssey calibration with the microphone in the primary listening spot.
2. After one iteration of the test tones, go ahead and select “calculate”.
3. After the calculation completes, examine the resulting speaker levels.
4. Note the level setting for the subwoofer. If the setting reduces the subwoofer output over 5db (e.g. -8db or -9db), then the subwoofer volume setting is too high. If the setting boosts the subwoofer output by more than 5db (e.g. +8db or +9db), then the subwoofer volume is set too low. The ideal result is to have Audyssey set the subwoofer volume in the +/- 1db to 2db range. Why? Because this allows the greatest flexibility to tweak the subwoofer levels after the Audyssey calibration has completed.
5. If the level setting is too high or too low, cancel the Audyssey calibration, and repeat Steps 2 and 3 until the subwoofer level falls into the +/- 1db to 2db range.

Step 3: Complete the Audyssey calibration. Make sure to use all eight microphone positions!

Step 4: Inspect the resulting speaker configurations after the calibration has completed and make any changes according to your preferences.
1. It is recommended to set all speakers to “small”.
2. Adjust the crossover frequencies for each speaker according to your preferences (e.g. 80 Hz). This does not affect the Audyssey calibration.
3. Set the Audyssey Dynamic Volume for each input according to your preference (e.g. Dynamic Volume “on”, setting “Day”).

Step 5: Test the results! You should hear tight bass integrated seamlessly with your other speakers.
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post #13 of 18 Old 02-18-2013, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by beat1 View Post

Below is one of the tips i recently found while googling. i think one can even do this without the suggested spl meter by skipping step 2. After step 1, go to step 3 but only use one sub at a time. Start with sub #1 by dialing the sub's volume (knob on the back) at 9 o'clock. in my Denon/Klipsch set up, 12 o'clock is too high resulting in a setting of -12. From here, follow step 3 below. Write down the result because you want the same result for the other sub. Repeat with subwoofer # 2. Then proceed to step 4 and 5.
If you have spl meter, just follow the whole sequence below from step 1 to 5. Thanks.
You would be far better off following the setup guide I linked previously than this flawed technique you found by Googling. The setup guide I linked has been verified by Chris Kyriakakis, the Chief Technical Officer of Audyssey. You can't get more authoritative than the guy who *wrote* the Audyssey program.

Craig

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post #14 of 18 Old 02-18-2013, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You would be far better off following the setup guide I linked previously than this flawed technique you found by Googling. The setup guide I linked has been verified by Chris Kyriakakis, the Chief Technical Officer of Audyssey. You can't get more authoritative than the guy who *wrote* the Audyssey program.

Craig

Just my 2 cents. No offense, Craig! I'm just trying to help shine some lights in the management of multiple subs (also applies to single sub) especially to those who do not own SPL meters. In fact, Chris cautioned readers in the use of SPL meters (except the expensive professional meters--from your link) because of their inaccuracy. It's just another way to skin a cat. Here's what Chris Kyriakakis stated which is not very different from the tip above that I found from another site. Thanks.

Ask Audyssey>Audyssey 101
Subwoofer setup and MultEQ
Chris Kyriakakis November 05, 2009
Many powered subwoofers have controls that are set manually. It's important to follow some simple guidelines to avoid having these controls interfere with proper subwoofer calibration and integration with the satellite speakers.

If the subwoofer provides a direct input (sometimes called LFE input) then it should always be used. That input bypasses the filters in the subwoofer and allows the bass management system in the AV Receiver to operate properly
If there is no direct input, then the lowpass filter knob on the subwoofer should be permanently set to the highest frequency it allows. That way it will not interfere with the MultEQ measurements and bass management
The level control on the subwoofer is often set too high. This can cause the AV Receiver to run out of level correction range when MultEQ tries to set the subwoofer to reference level. Set the subwoofer level control to the midpoint. If MultEQ reports high negative trims (e.g., –12 dB) for the subwoofer, then you should turn the level control further down and run MultEQ again
If there is a Phase control on the sub it should be set to 0°
If you have a subwoofer with room EQ, then you should run that first in the subwoofer and then run MultEQ in the AVR

If you have an external subwoofer processor (such as the SVS AS-EQ1 or the Audyssey Sub Equalizer) you should run the calibration in that processor first and then run MultEQ in your AVR

If you have two subwoofers, there are some additional steps to take:
Place them at equal distances from the main listening position
Set the level controls on the back so they both play at the same level
Connect a y-cord to the sub out of the AVR and then connect to both subs
Turn off processing in the subs as it will not be able to give you the same resolution that you will get from MultEQ (thousands of points vs. a few parametric bands)
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post #15 of 18 Old 02-28-2013, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If you are going to gain-match the subs, you don't need an SPL meter. The only mic you need is the Audyssey mic. If you want to go beyond what Audyssey does, you'll need measurement gear such as REW, XTZ or OmniMic. If you get REW, the recommended mic is a USB mic. See this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs

Look for AustinJerry's excellent write up of the process.

If you get XTZ or OmniMic, they come with their own mic. I haven't used my SPL meter in my HT for years.

Craig

Craig, exactly how would I go about this? Everything in the other thread recommends / requires an SPL meter.
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post #16 of 18 Old 02-28-2013, 02:28 PM
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Craig, exactly how would I go about this? Everything in the other thread recommends / requires an SPL meter.
With XT32, the first step is a "level-matching" step. However, it can also be used to gain-match. You just move the subs to the center of the room, place the Audyssey mic in front of one, set the gain so Audyssey reads about 85 dB, then move the other into the same place and set it's gain to be exactly the same as sub #1. Then place them back into their respective positions, and measure the levels. Move them both up or down the same amount to get them both close to 75 dB. Run Audyssey. smile.gif

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post #17 of 18 Old 02-28-2013, 05:50 PM
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Is there anyway to do it on the Denon 2113ci with Aud Xt only or do I need the spl meter?
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post #18 of 18 Old 03-01-2013, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
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Is there anyway to do it on the Denon 2113ci with Aud Xt only or do I need the spl meter?

Yup, you need an SPL meter.
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