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post #1 of 126 Old 02-25-2013, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello subwoofer experts.

My room is 14'x18'. What will be the best sub for $650-ish shipped, tax included.
This is what I came up with.

SVS PB-1000 $500
SVS SB-1000 $500
Hsu VTF-1 MK2 $450
Hsu VTF-2 MK4 $530
Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus $550
Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX $650
Rythmik LV12R $550

Or better options? May be non ID companies?

Thanks
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post #2 of 126 Old 02-25-2013, 08:06 PM
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All good choices.. What about duals?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882780078

Under $650 shipped.
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post #3 of 126 Old 02-25-2013, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

.. What about duals?.

I don't think I can do dual. Space is limited. It's a condo.
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post #4 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 09:43 AM
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You are not including shipping in those prices. With shipping, the Outlaw subs would have an additional $100 charge on them. Dual Klipschs might get the loudest, but, since you are in a condo, they might also have way more output than you will be using. That being the case, you might look at the Outlaw EX, it will have a lot of output and also much deeper extension. How loud can you crank your setup without bothering the neighbors?
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post #5 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 09:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isagreg View Post

Or better options? May be non ID companies

A delivered pair of Klipsch, RW-12d, on sale from Newegg for $600.00 or a delivered pair of BIC, PL-200 from Amazon for $660.00.

(yes I read that you don't think you can handle duals in your condo but it's still a better option)

For room smoothing purposes, I'm looking at adding a third sub even though the WAF is wanting to keep it at two subs. It's your place so you know if you can squeeze a second sub in or not. The alternative is to buy a single and later, if you think you can squeeze one in, buy a matching second sub.
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post #6 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

A delivered pair of Klipsch, RW-12d, on sale from Newegg for $600.00 or a delivered pair of BIC, PL-200 from Amazon for $660.00.

(yes I read that you don't think you can handle duals in your condo but it's still a better option)

For room smoothing purposes, I'm looking at adding a third sub even though the WAF is wanting to keep it at two subs. It's your place so you know if you can squeeze a second sub in or not. The alternative is to buy a single and later, if you think you can squeeze one in, buy a matching second sub.

The OP is in a 14x18 room. He probably doesn't have a very large seating area and has already said space is limited. In such a scenario I don't think duals are going to be that much of an improvement.
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post #7 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

You are not including shipping in those prices. With shipping, the Outlaw subs would have an additional $100 charge on them. Dual Klipschs might get the loudest, but, since you are in a condo, they might also have way more output than you will be using. That being the case, you might look at the Outlaw EX, it will have a lot of output and also much deeper extension. How loud can you crank your setup without bothering the neighbors?

I would go with the Outlaw EX or the Rythmik as Shady mentioned based on your feedback of tight space and no duals.

Just make sure you take a tape measure and understand how big some of these subs are before you buy them smile.gif
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post #8 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 10:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

He probably doesn't have a very large seating area and has already said space is limited.

I tried to address this point when I posted (and you quoted forward): "(yes I read that you don't think you can handle duals in your condo but it's still a better option)"

My comment was in direct response to the OP's comment, which I also quoted forward so my comment would have contextual meaning:

Quote:
Originally Posted by isagreg View Post

Or better options? May be non ID companies

And also, I offered an alternative when I posted:

"The alternative is to buy a single and later, if you think you can squeeze one in, buy a matching second sub."

I can't do any better then that.
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post #9 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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This is my living room.
The red boxes represent the sub(s) and their possible placement.
The box is approximately 19"W x 22"D.

Placement:
1. Preferred. There is about a foot between the sub and TV stand for the front towers.
2. OK for now. But later if I change the couches to corner ones it might not work.
3. The space looks kinda tight. But might work?

Don't ported subs go deeper compared to sealed? Although the sealed ones are more compact.
In general what should I look at first? Frequency response? The lower the better?

Thanks everyone.
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post #10 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isagreg View Post

Don't ported subs go deeper compared to sealed? Although the sealed ones are more compact.
In general what should I look at first? Frequency response? The lower the better?

Thanks everyone.

Depends on what you want. Is this for primarily music listening? Or more movies or gaming?

And also, since you live in a condo, how loud do you expect to run it?

Ported subs at the same price in the models you are looking will have more max SPL (volume) and generally dig a little deeper with authority. Sealed subs from these vendors at the same price will probably have a little better SQ and, of course, be smaller. So something like the SVS SB12-NSD is going to work for ear shattering volumes and will not go quite as low with authority, but it will be smaller than the ported subs and have a little better SQ than the the others you are considering.

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post #11 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Depends on what you want. Is this for primarily music listening? Or more movies or gaming?

Movies 60% and music 40%, no gaming.
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post #12 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by isagreg View Post

Movies 60% and music 40%, no gaming.

The ported subs would give you a little better low end response for movie watching, but the sealed subs would give you a little better bass sound. It's a tradeoff. A lot of people go with the ported; they definitely don't sound bad. But then again, you have space restrictions and probably neighbor restrictions on volume. If I was moving into an apartment or condo again with those things to consider, I'd probably think seriously about a smaller sealed sub.

Besides, a sealed subs is a good bit smaller. Maybe you could add a second later on. Dual subs gives you a more even bass response throughout the room.

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post #13 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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shadyJ
RE: "...There is no way I would get any of the SVS 1000 subs if you can get the Rythmik for only $50 more or a Hsu VTF2 for only $100 more, I think they are both likely a lot more sub for just a little bit more money..."
RE: "...The SVS subs are not on the same performance level as the others, I would stay away from them. I would go for the the VTF2, Outlaw Plus, or Rythmik. The Outlaw might have the most output between the three of those, but it wouldn't lead by much..."

So SVS subs are not as good as Hsu, Rythmik and Outlaw?
Looks like only SVS has sealed subs though.
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post #14 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isagreg View Post

So SVS subs are not as good as Hsu, Rythmik and Outlaw?
Looks like only SVS has sealed subs though.

I would be bet that most people in the subwoofer forum would agree that SVS subs are as good as HSU, Rythmik, and Outlaw. Shadyj just doesn't like them. In the interest of disclosure, I'm an Outlaw owner, but have never owned SVS.

Here's a review of their sealed sub: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/pb12-nsd

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post #15 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I would be bet that most people in the subwoofer forum would agree that SVS subs are as good as HSU, Rythmik, and Outlaw. Shadyj just doesn't like them. In the interest of disclosure, I'm an Outlaw owner, but have never owned SVS.

Here's a review of their sealed sub: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/pb12-nsd

I've always kind of figured that.wink.gif

SVS subs from a performance standpoint are every bit as good as the competiton. One aspect where SVS may have fallen behind in some peoples eyes on AVS is perhaps value or "bang for the buck". Keep in mind though that value is mostly subjective and will vary from one person to the next.
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post #16 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 12:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by isagreg View Post

So SVS subs are not as good as Hsu, Rythmik and Outlaw?

Nothing wrong with SVS subs. Based on all I've read regarding specifications and reader reviews, I'm a fan of Rythmik, SVS and Power Sound Audio. That is not a veiled knock on anything not in that group. As to recommendations, despite the negativity, I'm a fan of a two or three sub, subwoofer based system. That said, you show three locations, of which one can easily fit up to three subs. Just saying on the three sub point, not pushing a three sub solution.

Based on everything I've read, there is no music vs Home Theater solution, there's only quality subs waiting to be integrated into one's sound system.

Based on your above room diagram, you have an open room concept into the kitchen/dining area which increases your subwoofer needs. Now one needs to ask, what are their expectations. My impression, you're simply wanting some quality bass augmentation but not at what one might call the bass-head level. If my assessment of your needs is correct, I would recommend going with a bit larger budget if wanting a one subwoofer solution and that would be a Rythmik, E15 placed in the number two position.

Yes, way above your stated budget but that's my recommendation. Based on all you've shared, regarding a one sub solution, you're best served by more, not less. If wanting less, then yes, a two sub solution is the proper recommendation and should be placed in either location 1&2 or 1&3, maybe ever to the right of 3 and call it 3&4. If you went with a two sub solution, two SVS, SB12-NSD's would give you excellent response, musicality and room gain amplification. Buy one SB12-NSD and if you like what you hear and you're feeling froggy, add a second SVS, SB12-NSD at a more appropriate time and point.

In the end, it's all up to what you want to do and what makes you happy and if you're all about a one sub solution, because of the open room design, my opinion, you need more, not less.

Hope the above helps.

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post #17 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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PB12-NSD is ported $770
SB12-NSD is sealed $650
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post #18 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isagreg View Post

cel4145
PB12-NSD is ported $770
SB12-NSD is sealed $650

Those include shipping in the price. So the PB12-NSD as the ported sub is considered similar in class and price to the Outlaw EX.

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post #19 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kesando View Post

I've always kind of figured that.wink.gif

SVS subs from a performance standpoint are every bit as good as the competiton. One aspect where SVS may have fallen behind in some peoples eyes on AVS is perhaps value or "bang for the buck". Keep in mind though that value is mostly subjective and will vary from one person to the next.

SVS subs tend to play flat. They may not have as much output as their counterparts but they also integrate pretty easily into a room. SVS also, IMHO, has some nicer finishes and the best warranty of any of the ID companies I have seen as well as top notch service.

Nothing against PSA or Hsu or Rythmik, but I see SVS setting the gold standard in terms of standing by their product.

I don't fault anyone for buying an SVS sub. You know you will get a well made product that the company stands behind. For many people that are apprehensive about buying an ID sub, I feel SVS is the safest bet and probably the most reliable.
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post #20 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 01:03 PM
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All are good choice. If it was me, I would get either the Hsu vtf2.4 or the new Rythmik LV12R (both ported). I used to own the vtf2.3 and it was a solid sub. The vtf2.4 is suppose to be even better. Rythmik makes great sub also.
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post #21 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isagreg View Post

shadyJ
RE: "...There is no way I would get any of the SVS 1000 subs if you can get the Rythmik for only $50 more or a Hsu VTF2 for only $100 more, I think they are both likely a lot more sub for just a little bit more money..."
RE: "...The SVS subs are not on the same performance level as the others, I would stay away from them. I would go for the the VTF2, Outlaw Plus, or Rythmik. The Outlaw might have the most output between the three of those, but it wouldn't lead by much..."

So SVS subs are not as good as Hsu, Rythmik and Outlaw?
Looks like only SVS has sealed subs though.
SVS makes great sub and have the best warranty available but they are no longer the best bang for the buck any more. I have the SB12NSD in one of my room, and it is very nice little sub. Output wise, the vtf2.4 beats it.
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post #22 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

SVS subs tend to play flat. They may not have as much output as their counterparts but they also integrate pretty easily into a room. SVS also, IMHO, has some nicer finishes and the best warranty of any of the ID companies I have seen as well as top notch service.

Nothing against PSA or Hsu or Rythmik, but I see SVS setting the gold standard in terms of standing by their product.

I don't fault anyone for buying an SVS sub. You know you will get a well made product that the company stands behind. For many people that are apprehensive about buying an ID sub, I feel SVS is the safest bet and probably the most reliable.

I agree 100%. SVSound's products and customer service have been top notch in the time that I have owned them. I currently own three of their subs and would purchase another in a heartbeat. cool.gif That said, you really can't go wrong with any of the (still operating) ID subwoofer companies. I love competition.
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post #23 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I edited the sub selection with shipping and taxes added (if any)
Looks like ported do go lower.

SVS PB 1000 $500 shipped no tax
Front Ported 10" 300W (700W Dynamic) 19Hz
46 Lb 18"Hx15"Wx18.4"D
warranty: 5yrs

SVS SB 1000 $500 shipped no tax
Sealed 12" 300W (720W Dynamic) 24Hz
27 Lb 13"Hx13"Wx13"D
warranty: 5yrs

SVS SB12-NSD $650 shipped no tax
Sealed 12" 400W (800W Dynamic) 23Hz
35 Lb 14.6"Hx14.2"Wx14.2"D
warranty: 5yrs


Rythmik LV12R $550 shipped no tax
Back Ported 12" 300W 19Hz
69 Lb 22"Hx16"Wx19"D
warranty: 5yrs/2yrs Amp


Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus $621.39 shipped no tax
Back Dual-Ported 12" (down-firing) 350W (1300W Dynamic) 18Hz ported/ 25Hz sealed
58 Lb 21.5"Hx15"Wx22"D
warranty: 3yrs

Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX $739.85 shipped no tax
Back Dual-Ported 12" (down-firing) 350W (1300W Dynamic) 16Hz ported/ 22Hz sealed
80 Lb 21.5"Hx17"Wx24"D
warranty: 3yrs


HSU VTF-1 MK2 $531.41 shipped with tax
Back Dual-Ported 10" (down-firing) 200W (800W Dynamic) 25Hz ported/ 32Hz sealed
42 Lb 18"Hx14"Wx17"D
warranty: 7yrs/2yrs Amp

HSU VTF-2 MK4 $660.11 shipped with tax
Back Dual-Ported 12" (down-firing) 250W (1000W Dynamic) 18Hz ported/ 25Hz sealed
64 Lb 20.5"Hx15"Wx22"D
warranty: 7yrs/2yrs Amp
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post #24 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

SVS makes great sub and have the best warranty available but they are no longer the best bang for the buck any more. I have the SB12NSD in one of my room, and it is very nice little sub. Output wise, the vtf2.4 beats it.

It should. That's a big ported sub. The SB12-NSD is not a design meant to compete with the SPL output of the VTF2.4.

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post #25 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isagreg View Post

shadyJ
RE: "...There is no way I would get any of the SVS 1000 subs if you can get the Rythmik for only $50 more or a Hsu VTF2 for only $100 more, I think they are both likely a lot more sub for just a little bit more money..."
RE: "...The SVS subs are not on the same performance level as the others, I would stay away from them. I would go for the the VTF2, Outlaw Plus, or Rythmik. The Outlaw might have the most output between the three of those, but it wouldn't lead by much..."

So SVS subs are not as good as Hsu, Rythmik and Outlaw?
Looks like only SVS has sealed subs though.

In my opinion, SVS isn't a very high value product with respect to performance. If you compare their subs' measured results to some other companies, they get creamed at the same price point. You can see that here. Compare the SB12 to the Outlaw EX, the EX has double the output of the SVS from 50 hz on up and a lot more than double the output down from there. You would need two stacked SB12's to equal a single LFM-1 EX at its smallest performance gap, and you would need almost four stacked SB12's to close its largest performance gap, and it gets worse if you can not stack them. To be fair, the LFM is quite a bit larger sub, and a bit more expensive when you factor in shipping.
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post #26 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

In my opinion, SVS isn't a very high value product with respect to performance. If you compare their subs' measured results to some other companies, they get creamed at the same price point. You can see that here. Compare the SB12 to the Outlaw EX, the EX has double the output of the SVS from 50 hz on up and a lot more than double the output down from there. You would need two stacked SB12's to equal a single LFM-1 EX at its smallest performance gap, and you would need almost four stacked SB12's to close its largest performance gap, and it gets worse if you can not stack them. To be fair, the LFM is quite a bit larger sub, and a bit more expensive when you factor in shipping.

Why are you comparing the SB12 with the Outlaw EX??????

It's a SMALL SEALED sub. Not meant to compete with the ported subs in output. You are comparing oranges to grapes. Was SVS evil to you in some previous life that you would make that comparison? LOL

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post #27 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by isagreg View Post

So SVS subs are not as good as Hsu, Rythmik and Outlaw?

Nothing wrong with SVS subs. Based on all I've read regarding specifications and reader reviews, I'm a fan of Rythmik, SVS and Power Sound Audio. That is not a veiled knock on anything not in that group. As to recommendations, despite the negativity, I'm a fan of a two or three sub, subwoofer based system. That said, you show three locations, of which one can easily fit up to three subs. Just saying on the three sub point, not pushing a three sub solution.

Based on everything I've read, there is no music vs Home Theater solution, there's only quality subs waiting to be integrated into one's sound system.

Based on your above room diagram, you have an open room concept into the kitchen/dining area which increases your subwoofer needs. Now one needs to ask, what are their expectations. My impression, you're simply wanting some quality bass augmentation but not at what one might call the bass-head level. If my assessment of your needs is correct, I would recommend going with a bit larger budget if wanting a one subwoofer solution and that would be a Rythmik, E15 placed in the number two position.

Yes, way above your stated budget but that's my recommendation. Based on all you've shared, regarding a one sub solution, you're best served by more, not less. If wanting less, then yes, a two sub solution is the proper recommendation and should be placed in either location 1&2 or 1&3, maybe ever to the right of 3 and call it 3&4. If you went with a two sub solution, two SVS, SB12-NSD's would give you excellent response, musicality and room gain amplification. Buy one SB12-NSD and if you like what you hear and you're feeling froggy, add a second SVS, SB12-NSD at a more appropriate time and point.

In the end, it's all up to what you want to do and what makes you happy and if you're all about a one sub solution, because of the open room design, my opinion, you need more, not less.

Hope the above helps.

-

Which if any of those subs have you heard. How can you be a fan of something you have no experience with confused.gif
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post #28 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

In my opinion, SVS isn't a very high value product with respect to performance. If you compare their subs' measured results to some other companies, they get creamed at the same price point. You can see that here. Compare the SB12 to the Outlaw EX, the EX has double the output of the SVS from 50 hz on up and a lot more than double the output down from there. You would need two stacked SB12's to equal a single LFM-1 EX at its smallest performance gap, and you would need almost four stacked SB12's to close its largest performance gap, and it gets worse if you can not stack them. To be fair, the LFM is quite a bit larger sub, and a bit more expensive when you factor in shipping.

One more thing. Might help if you explain why you bought two wimpy 15" ULS-15 subs when a VFT-15H should have significantly more output wink.gif

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post #29 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Everybody please calm down. We're not married to any of those products.
We're trying to determine which of those is a better bang for a buck. If SVS wins so be it. If not it is their loss. smile.gif
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post #30 of 126 Old 02-26-2013, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isagreg View Post

shadyJ
RE: "...There is no way I would get any of the SVS 1000 subs if you can get the Rythmik for only $50 more or a Hsu VTF2 for only $100 more, I think they are both likely a lot more sub for just a little bit more money..."
RE: "...The SVS subs are not on the same performance level as the others, I would stay away from them. I would go for the the VTF2, Outlaw Plus, or Rythmik. The Outlaw might have the most output between the three of those, but it wouldn't lead by much..."

So SVS subs are not as good as Hsu, Rythmik and Outlaw?
Looks like only SVS has sealed subs though.

Svs subs are as good as any in your list as far as manufactures go. You can't go wrong with any as a company. It should come down to your budget and goals. Diminishing returns apply here, so value is subjective.
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