Auralex SubDude vs. Spike feet - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 102 Old 03-04-2013, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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They are about the exact same price... I did the reading on sub isolation platform and generally read that you should do it...it improves performance allot.

So given the choice between these two and the fact they are the same price... Seems I should go with the platform?
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post #2 of 102 Old 03-04-2013, 01:54 PM
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The following quoted claims are taken straight from the websites of manufacturers of these devices.

The Isolation Claim: ‘Its purpose is to prevent sound from transmitting through your subwoofer to surrounding surfaces. Subwoofers create big vibrations (low frequencies) that you can feel in the floor and in objects placed nearby. When the source of the vibrations is coupled directly to the floor it causes these objects to vibrate or resonate…’

The Truth: The source of these vibrations is the movement of the driver cone creating pressure waves in the room. The claim would only be true if you coupled the driver cone to the floor. If the cabinet panels vibrate enough to cause the floor to vibrate the speaker is defective.

The Decoupling Claim: ‘Isolators for your speakers…will decouple your speakers from the surface they rest upon, resulting in a more pure, accurate tone. Low frequencies will be projected and will no longer lack the definition you desire. Mid and high frequencies will be crisp and intelligible. Rattles and resonances will be a thing of the past.’

The Spike Claim: ‘By rigidly coupling a loudspeaker enclosure to a floor by means of a spiking system, it is possible to dramatically improve clarity, stereo imaging and bass response. This is very apparent with subwoofer systems.’

The Quandary: These sources claim the same benefits from coupling and from decoupling. Who’s telling the truth?

The Truth: Both are lying. Isolation and coupling makes no difference. To test this I measured the response of my THT and my David with the test mic in the room, in the next room, and in the room below, with the cabinet sitting on the carpeted floor, on four inches of high density acoustic foam, on rubber feet and on spikes. I’d post the measured results for each set of comparisons, but there would be no point. In each case the measured responses of the four options were identical.
Note that this was on a carpeted floor. There may be some slight benefits to isolation devices or rubber feet on a bare floor, or on a bare shelf or stand. But you never want a bare floor, it’s an acoustical nightmare. If you only have area rugs in your listening room stick a piece of felt carpet padding, a carpet scrap or rubber feet under your speaker. If you're using bookshelves on a bare shelf or stand small rubber feet or felt pads are all you need to prevent spurious vibrations.

The Endorser Claim: ‘I tried them and they work, I know what I’m hearing!’

The Truth: The first thing you learn in an acoustical engineering course is that you don’t know what you’re hearing. If you did you’d be able to listen to a speaker, take pencil and graph paper in hand, and draw a frequency response chart, THD chart and waterfall plot, all with 1/24 octave resolution and 1/10dB accuracy. Our ears just aren’t that good, not by a very wide margin. But our imagination works very well, and that clouds our audio judgment, leading to placebo effect. In short, if you think something will make a difference in the sound, it will.


One item that's always missing from both manufacturers and owners claims are measured results, before and after. We often say 'If you don't have a picture it didn't happen'. In this case that picture is measured in-room response. When virtually anyone who's really serious about their sound has REW or the like that's not a lot to ask for.

For an in depth examination of why we really don’t know what we’re hearing check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

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post #3 of 102 Old 03-04-2013, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Bill! Just to repeat what I got from reading your reply is ...save your money.

When I was researching I saw about 25% of the post saying save your money (Isolation platforms are not worth it)...25% debating what type of isolation or coupling is best and about 50% saying "Wow"...and extolling the benefits of isolation platforms.

So for now...ill forgo the $50 dollars and buy those $700 dollar speaker wires instead! biggrin.gif

Let me ask you this... Give your knowledge, besides the obvious which is speaker quality, receiver / amp and source material... Where is your next best buck spent?
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post #4 of 102 Old 03-04-2013, 04:07 PM
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I'll field this one...
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post #5 of 102 Old 03-04-2013, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll field this one...

Lol! Whiskey makes it all better!
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post #6 of 102 Old 03-04-2013, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

They are about the exact same price... I did the reading on sub isolation platform and generally read that you should do it...it improves performance allot.

So given the choice between these two and the fact they are the same price... Seems I should go with the platform?

Depends upon what your definition of "performance" is I suppose. I have a Gramma, and it definitely quieted down things that were rattling in my room (like the blinds). The Auralex stuff is pricey for what you get, but it made a difference for me.

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post #7 of 102 Old 03-04-2013, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Thanks Bill! Just to repeat what I got from reading your reply is ...save your money.

When I was researching I saw about 25% of the post saying save your money (Isolation platforms are not worth it)...25% debating what type of isolation or coupling is best and about 50% saying "Wow"...and extolling the benefits of isolation platforms.

So for now...ill forgo the $50 dollars and buy those $700 dollar speaker wires instead! biggrin.gif

Let me ask you this... Give your knowledge, besides the obvious which is speaker quality, receiver / amp and source material... Where is your next best buck spent?
That pretty much covers it. Speakers are the most critical, as they're mechanical devices, and the last link in the chain. No matter how good the source it won't sound good through a bad speaker. Electronics reach the point of diminished returns very early on; you'd be surprised to find out how many $2k AVRs use the same internals as $500 AVRs. Wire is wire.

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post #8 of 102 Old 03-04-2013, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Doh...thus speaks someone else I respect...

They are 50 bucks delivered...both the Gamma and the Subdude. (both same manufacturer...so only size being the difference?) Bill is saying performance wise ...they dont do anything. Jim is saying he may not have seen any sound difference but he did see secondary vibrations diminish... At least that is what I read from him.

We are not talking tons of bucks but 50 bucks is 50 bucks. I am already killing myself here.. I am cheap by nature ...er frugal..but I try to spend where it makes the most sense.

So...if I find stuff vibrating...try this...if not ...it should not improve the sound of my subs? Is this about right?
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post #9 of 102 Old 03-04-2013, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Doh...thus speaks someone else I respect...

They are 50 bucks delivered...both the Gamma and the Subdude. (both same manufacturer...so only size being the difference?) Bill is saying performance wise ...they dont do anything. Jim is saying he may not have seen any sound difference but he did see secondary vibrations diminish... At least that is what I read from him.

We are not talking tons of bucks but 50 bucks is 50 bucks. I am already killing myself here.. I am cheap by nature ...er frugal..but I try to spend where it makes the most sense.

So...if I find stuff vibrating...try this...if not ...it should not improve the sound of my subs? Is this about right?
Stuff vibrates because your sub is sending out ten to fifty foot long wavelengths that will cause large surfaces, such as floors, walls, ceilings, doors and tables, to vibrate. Smaller objects on or hanging from those surfaces will also vibrate. Putting the sub on a platform does not stop the transmission of those long wavelengths, so it won't stop the vibrations they cause.

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post #10 of 102 Old 03-05-2013, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

They are 50 bucks delivered...both the Gamma and the Subdude. (both same manufacturer...so only size being the difference?) Bill is saying performance wise ...they dont do anything. Jim is saying he may not have seen any sound difference but he did see secondary vibrations diminish... At least that is what I read from him.

So...if I find stuff vibrating...try this...if not ...it should not improve the sound of my subs? Is this about right?

The Gramma definitely cut down on the sympathetic vibrations I was getting, so it's proven quite beneficial for me. Does the bass sound "cleaner" because of it? Empirically yes, but that's a bit more difficult to quantify. Since virtually all the objects in my room are no longer vibrating it can't help but make the overall sound quality -- or at least the viewing experience -- that much better.

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post #11 of 102 Old 03-05-2013, 07:36 AM
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I've noticed zero benefit from my great gramma.

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post #12 of 102 Old 03-05-2013, 08:47 AM
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I put 1" thick foam/felt under the feet of my outlaw plus - not for sound improvement, but because my floor is not perfectly flat and I needed some compliance so the sub would not vibrate on the floor. I think subs and other speakers should only have three feet.
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post #13 of 102 Old 03-05-2013, 12:54 PM
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Funny how here most consider them snake oil. but if you go to bluray.com there is pages of people that have built them and swear they made there $100 subs sound like a million bucks. Im with Bill I will save my money. like he said my room doesnt rattle hardly at all but when i go upstairs to the room above I swear on some movies the floor jumps about an inch. No pad is going to stop that.
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post #14 of 102 Old 03-05-2013, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SULLY12 View Post

Funny how here most consider them snake oil. but if you go to bluray.com there is pages of people that have built them and swear they made there $100 subs sound like a million bucks.

I am still learning, but that seems to make sense though.

I do not want to put words in Bill's mouth, but if I understood his posts correctly, he was saying that a nice and well-constructed sub should not be producing those vibrations in the first place - if it is, then there may be some sort of fault with it.

If you have a $100 sub, the likelihood that it may be poorly constructed is higher, and if so, isolating the sub with a subdude (or whatever) might really have a positive effect. However, this is essentially a way to remedy a symptom rather than absolve the actual problem (but maybe that is all you want to do).
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post #15 of 102 Old 03-05-2013, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SULLY12 View Post

my room doesnt rattle hardly at all but when i go upstairs to the room above I swear on some movies the floor jumps about an inch.
If the hype was true that couldn't happen unless the sub was bolted to the ceiling. rolleyes.gif
Those who make isolation devices are no different than the cable crooks or any of a hundred other outfits who are interested in one thing and one thing only: Your money. You have it, they want it. And like all snake oil merchants the less you understand about how audio actually works, the better a mark you are. Caveat Emptor.
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post #16 of 102 Old 08-16-2013, 12:36 PM
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I bought an Auralex subdude and I won on the very next scratch ticket I purchased....So there! Check mate and match tongue.gif
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post #17 of 102 Old 08-18-2013, 12:34 AM
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The people on the other forum build subwoofer risers. The construction and height of the riser can affect the vertical modes in a room and act as a bass trap. This may improve the SQ in the room. The biggest benefit of a good riser are that it is much easier to movie heavy subs around the room.smile.gif

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The people on the other forum build subwoofer risers. The construction and height of the riser can affect the vertical modes in a room and act as a bass trap.
The fact that they say that means that they simply have no idea of what they're talking about. For instance, to have any effect on vertical modes a riser would have to be a significant portion of a wavelength high. Wavelengths in the 20 to 80Hz bandwidth range from 14 to 56 feet. If they have measured results to back up their claims that would be interesting, but those who believe in magic never do. rolleyes.gif

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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

The fact that they say that means that they simply have no idea of what they're talking about. For instance, to have any effect on vertical modes a riser would have to be a significant portion of a wavelength high. Wavelengths in the 20 to 80Hz bandwidth range from 14 to 56 feet. If they have measured results to back up their claims that would be interesting, but those who believe in magic never do. rolleyes.gif

Mmm, that’s interesting. I put a piece of 3” thick cedar under my SW and I swear it gave my bass a flavor that I never noticed before.

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The biggest benefit of a good riser are that it is much easier to movie heavy subs around the room.smile.gif

Actually, the biggest benefit is how it isolates the sub from the floor and quiets down the resonating miscellany in the room. I don't think it will help "movie" a sub around though; it's easier to slide one when it's not sitting on foam blocks... tongue.gif

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Mmm, that’s interesting. I put a piece of 3” thick cedar under my SW and I swear it gave my bass a flavor that I never noticed before.

Are you referring to salmon or a subwoofer? biggrin.gif
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Are you referring to salmon or a subwoofer? biggrin.gif

Oh! am I in the SW forum? ]

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Mmm, that’s interesting. I put a piece of 3” thick cedar under my SW and I swear it gave my bass a flavor that I never noticed before.
Show me your measured results.
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Actually, the biggest benefit is how it isolates the sub from the floor and quiets down the resonating miscellany in the room.
Show me your measurements. Mine reveal no differences whatsoever, either with the in-room response or the transmission to adjacent rooms on the same floor or the floor below the room where the sub is located.
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am I in the SW forum?
You're in the AV Science forum. Placebo effect is scientifically proven, as must be claims of results that defy the laws of acoustics.

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Show me your measurements. Mine reveal no differences whatsoever, either with the in-room response or the transmission to adjacent rooms on the same floor or the floor below the room where the sub is located.

Now why on earth would I care to show you measurements indicating things in my room vibrate less with a GRAMMA? And why would anything you alleged measured matter to me at all? I know what benefits the isolator provided in my situation, irrespective of whatever your claiming you've been able to "prove" in yours, so other than you who cares? I know what it's provided in my case. I could care less what it has/has not done for you.
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Bill you did not quote me in it’s entirety, and have seemed to take me wrong. I would never do that to another poster, I demand a public apology.

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post #27 of 102 Old 08-18-2013, 07:08 PM
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Now why on earth would I care to show you measurements indicating things in my room vibrate less with a GRAMMA?
To prove your claim? I may not be from Missouri, but I do adhere to their state nickname.
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Bill you did not quote me in it’s entirety, and have seemed to take me wrong. I would never do that to another poster, I demand a public apology.
You're right. I'm sorry that you've succumbed to placebo effect. rolleyes.gif

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post #28 of 102 Old 08-18-2013, 07:18 PM
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To prove your claim? I may not be from Missouri, but I do adhere to their state nickname.
You're right. I'm sorry that you've succumbed to placebo effect. rolleyes.gif

Ah crap Bill.. I wish you would go back and check my original post you copied. I was agreeing with you and being sarcastic in a way I thought best. confused.gif

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post #29 of 102 Old 08-18-2013, 07:41 PM
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Ah crap Bill.. I wish you would go back and check my original post you copied. I was agreeing with you and being sarcastic ...
Not in an obvious enough way. Unfortunately what you thought a humorous comment is just the type of sillyness that oddiophools actually believe in. After decades of seeing them make comments that it would seem any rational person would think must be a joke it's hard to recognize what's actually intended to be a joke. Speaking of which, check out this doofus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03I3Q2KHDDQ

And yes, he is serious. All he's missing is the aluminum foil yamulke. rolleyes.gif

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post #30 of 102 Old 08-18-2013, 11:32 PM
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Not in an obvious enough way.

Lol. Ok since you say so

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