Should I set my rti 10 towers to small or large? Same question for my csi 5. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 03-09-2013, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Just got a new speakers setup. I would like to know whether to set my speakers to small or large on my Denon avr-890.
The towers go as low as 35hz -3db, and the center can go as low as 55hz -3db.
I have a psw111 subwoofer as well as a psw505. Not sure which I will use, if not both.

Thanks for your time.
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post #2 of 22 Old 03-09-2013, 06:09 PM
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Set them to small so you can change up your crossovers. Changing them to small really has nothing with the size or full capabilities of those mains but more with allowing each speaker set to play to their strengths.

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post #3 of 22 Old 03-10-2013, 10:44 PM
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Set your towers to small with a 40Hz crossover set your center to small with a 60Hz crossover and use both subs.
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post #4 of 22 Old 03-11-2013, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by UofAZ1 View Post

Set your towers to small with a 40Hz crossover set your center to small with a 60Hz crossover and use both subs.

I would set the cross overs high to maybe 60hz or 80hz.

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

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post #5 of 22 Old 03-11-2013, 11:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by UofAZ1 View Post

Set your towers to small with a 40Hz crossover set your center to small with a 60Hz crossover and use both subs.

Are you running a room EQ feature like Audyssey and if yes, what does Audyssey recommend setting the crossover points at? The reason I ask, changing the crossover points will affect a room's measurement graph.

If one doesn't have room analyzing capability, one is not able to see these changes taking place.

Beware! Pretty much, all changed parametric settings, affects the flatness of a graph.
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post #6 of 22 Old 03-11-2013, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by djwest78 View Post

Just got a new speakers setup. I would like to know whether to set my speakers to small or large on my Denon avr-890.
The towers go as low as 35hz -3db, and the center can go as low as 55hz -3db.
I have a psw111 subwoofer as well as a psw505. Not sure which I will use, if not both.

Thanks for your time.
The spec's for your speakers don't tell you much about their actual low frequency performance in your room, or at the volume levels you listen at. To really know what they do in your room, you need to measure them. That requires measurement gear and the ability to interpret the graphs you generate. Are you interested in doing that? If so, let us know and we can get you started.

If not, you can just use the Audyssey product built into your receiver to do it for you. You just place the mic in 6 different locations throughout the listening area and Audyssey will measure the response of the speakers and the receiver will suggest appropriate crossovers. Here is the AVS Setup Guide, which is written by forum member Giomania, and vetted by the Chief Technical Officer of Audyssey, Chris Kyriakakis:
Audyssey Setup Guide (2012-05-07).doc 169k .doc file

If you don't want to do that, then I suggest you take the specified -3 dB points of your speakers and set the crossovers one octave above the -3 dB points. That way, you will be safely above the in-room roll-offs and the lowest bass will be sent to the subwoofer(s), which are the speakers most likely to be able to adequately reproduce the bass.

Craig
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File Type: doc Audyssey Setup Guide (2012-05-07).doc (169.0 KB, 4 views)

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post #7 of 22 Old 03-11-2013, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Beware! Pretty much, all changed parametric settings, affects the flatness of a graph.

Sometimes we need to "interpret" the BeeMan's pontificates. When he refers to "changed parametric settings", he is not referring to changing the settings on a parametric equalizer, (even though that seems to be what he's referring to.) No, instead he is referring to changing any or all the settings on the subwoofer amp or any settings in the receiver that affect the subwoofer. (My guess is that he's referring to the "parameters" that are changed, but why he continues to cause confusion by referring to them as "parametric settings", which can easily be confused with the settings on a parametric EQ, is beyond me.)

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post #8 of 22 Old 03-11-2013, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, those were some really great insights and I very much appreciate everyone who contributed.
Being that my Denon avr890 is nowhere near capable of fully powering the towers, I plan on setting the crossover to 80 hz.
I am doing so to keep my Denon from having to work too hard trying to send subwoofer like frequencies to already powerhungry speakers. AND, 80hz seems to keep the neighbors away. I may only be able to use the psw111 for now while I am still in this apt.

Anyhow, for now, I am going to try bi-amping the towers, in a 5.1 format, gonna run audessy multi eq, then I will report back and let you know how everything sounds.

I will also upload a you tube video. My you tube channel is @ MrRugDoctor78

Thanks everyone
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post #9 of 22 Old 03-11-2013, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh, and my room is about 20 side to side by 15 front to back, with the open corners behind the towers to the right and left, if that makes sense (dining room on one side, and hallway on other)
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post #10 of 22 Old 03-13-2013, 11:30 AM
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Bi-amping is a waste of time.

Also, don't be afraid to experiment with even higher crossovers (90-120hz) if your sub is up front near your FL/R. Can sometimes sound even better, but if the sub is too close to your MLP than you can start having localization issues.

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post #11 of 22 Old 03-13-2013, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Bi-amping is a waste of time.

Also, don't be afraid to experiment with even higher crossovers (90-120hz) if your sub is up front near your FL/R. Can sometimes sound even better, but if the sub is too close to your MLP than you can start having localization issues.

I'm really glad that you made those two points.

In response to the biamping thing, I had done enough research before buying the speakers to know that most people agree with you about the biamping being a waste of time. That being said, I had the extra wire, and extra channels available, and wanted to try it for myself. Sounds fantastic to me, so I'm just going to leave it until it decide to use the other channels for front or rear use. I also like the way it looks...having 2 pairs of wires going to the back. Just comes off as more "special" if you know what I mean. And, I look forward to bragging to my (non audio informed) friends about my dual amped speakers as I plan on referring to them from now on haha wink.gif

To your second point about the crossover of between 90-120hz which most people would never recommend or at least I've not seen many people recommend for speakers of this size. I gave it a try and it DOES seem better I think...maybe just for tv listening. I seem to be hearing more bass. Can't really explain it, but I do know that room size and geometry can affect the way tones are perceived. Anyhow, 100 sounds good so far for tv listening. I'll report back on other settings as I give them a try.
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post #12 of 22 Old 03-13-2013, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by djwest78 View Post

I also like the way it looks...having 2 pairs of wires going to the back. Just comes off as more "special" if you know what I mean. And, I look forward to bragging to my (non audio informed) friends about my dual amped speakers as I plan on referring to them from now on haha wink.gif

This is exactly why most people bi-amp. wink.giftongue.gif
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To your second point about the crossover of between 90-120hz which most people would never recommend or at least I've not seen many people recommend for speakers of this size. I gave it a try and it DOES seem better I think...maybe just for tv listening. I seem to be hearing more bass. Can't really explain it, but I do know that room size and geometry can affect the way tones are perceived. Anyhow, 100 sounds good so far for tv listening. I'll report back on other settings as I give them a try.

FYI, I have what most would consider large speakers - Klipschorns for my FL/R speakers and a RC64II center - and I settled on a crossover of 110hz after testing and measuring for a few weeks. I think it improves my soundstage and gives me a smoother transition in the crossover region.

Just because "most" wouldn't recommend a crossover that high, doesn't mean there aren't a select few of us willing to experiment for what works best for our equipment in our rooms. biggrin.gif

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post #13 of 22 Old 03-13-2013, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post



Just because "most" wouldn't recommend a crossover that high, doesn't mean there aren't a select few of us willing to experiment for what works best for our equipment in our rooms. biggrin.gif


Can you help me on another couple of points here while I have your ear.

1. Because I am using an amp that is incapable of fully powering these speakers, will having a high crossover (80-120) take a load off of the Denon. Can it be intelligently stated, that if I were to use a crossover of 100, that I could play my speakers louder without worrying as much about clipping?

2. If my Denon 7.1 is quoted at 105w per, do I get a higher wattage output in stereo/direct stereo/pure direct?

3. Is pure direct a full signal. I listened to a Yanni blu ray that was in pcm stereo, and it sounded fabulous in pure direct. It only occured to me afterwords that it may have been sending a full signal, and eek.gif the draw on my amp:eek:

Thanks for your time again.
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post #14 of 22 Old 03-13-2013, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by djwest78 View Post

1. Because I am using an amp that is incapable of fully powering these speakers, will having a high crossover (80-120) take a load off of the Denon. Can it be intelligently stated, that if I were to use a crossover of 100, that I could play my speakers louder without worrying as much about clipping?

What makes you think your amp is incapable? Regardless, the answer to your question is yes, the higher the crossover, the more work is off-loaded to the subwoofer.
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2. If my Denon 7.1 is quoted at 105w per, do I get a higher wattage output in stereo/direct stereo/pure direct?

No.
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3. Is pure direct a full signal. I listened to a Yanni blu ray that was in pcm stereo, and it sounded fabulous in pure direct. It only occured to me afterwords that it may have been sending a full signal, and the draw on my amp:eek:

It's not clear from looking at your manual whether or not the bass management is still engaged in Pure Direct mode while listening to 2 channel material. Maybe reading the full manual would tell you more, or ask over in the dedicated thread for your AVR.

Unless you are hearing distortion or clipping, there is no need to be overly worried about the "draw on your amp". wink.gif

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post #15 of 22 Old 03-13-2013, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by djwest78 View Post

Can you help me on another couple of points here while I have your ear.

1. Because I am using an amp that is incapable of fully powering these speakers, will having a high crossover (80-120) take a load off of the Denon. Can it be intelligently stated, that if I were to use a crossover of 100, that I could play my speakers louder without worrying as much about clipping?
If you are going to cross your speakers over at 100 Hz, why did you buy the towers? You could have gotten bookshelf speakers, saved a bunch of money and bought more/better subwoofers.

Are you aware that the woofers in your speakers are crossed to the mids at 125 Hz? http://www.polkaudio.com/products/rti10 Therefore, if you set a crossover on the speakers in the receiver, you'll only be using the 7" woofers in the speakers from 100 to 125 Hz, or about 1/4 of an octave. Hardly seems worth spending the money on the bass extension, the dual woofers and the larger cabinet if you're only going to use a small fraction of it's performance.

I'm not saying you should use lower crossovers in your system. I merely making a comment about system design. If you had known up front that you were going to use higher crossovers, you could have designed a more cost effective system, spending less on the speakers and more on the subs.

I'm just sayin'..

Craig

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post #16 of 22 Old 03-13-2013, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

you could have designed a more cost effective system, spending less on the speakers and more on the subs.

I'm just sayin'..

Craig

No, I could not have gotten a better deal...on anything.
I paid a total of $360 for:
a pair of rti10
pair of rti 4
psw-505
csi5 center

That comes out to:
$60 per tower
$60 per bookshelf
$60 or a 12" 300w subwoofer
$60 for the center

All of which are in perfect condition.

There is no better deal than the one I got.

This is a matter of WORKING WITH WHAT I HAVE.

Which is why my original question was not about which speakers I should buy, but thanks for your 2 wink.gif
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post #17 of 22 Old 03-14-2013, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If you are going to cross your speakers over at 100 Hz, why did you buy the towers?

Craig

Because doing so allows me to play these speakers much louder especially when I am in multi channel listening, and all channels are going hard at once like during a battle scene. These guys would hog all the available dynamic power from the 6.0 amps overall output capacity of my receiver. There are people who post here who claim to use even higher crossovers than what was suggested here, with even BIGGER speakers. Must not just be me...

ROOM SIZE AND ACOUSTICS ARE THE MISSING PIECE OF THIS PUZZLE. YOU CAN NEVER MADE AN INTELLIGENT SUGGESTION ABOUT HOW SOMEONE SHOULD SET THEIR LEVELS IF YOU KNOW ONLY WHAT SPEAKERS AND AMPS THEY HAVE.
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Originally Posted by djwest78 View Post

ROOM SIZE AND ACOUSTICS ARE THE MISSING PIECE OF THIS PUZZLE. YOU CAN NEVER MADE AN INTELLIGENT SUGGESTION ABOUT HOW SOMEONE SHOULD SET THEIR LEVELS IF YOU KNOW ONLY WHAT SPEAKERS AND AMPS THEY HAVE.

Very true.

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post #19 of 22 Old 03-15-2013, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by djwest78 View Post

Because doing so allows me to play these speakers much louder especially when I am in multi channel listening, and all channels are going hard at once like during a battle scene. These guys would hog all the available dynamic power from the 6.0 amps overall output capacity of my receiver. There are people who post here who claim to use even higher crossovers than what was suggested here, with even BIGGER speakers. Must not just be me...

ROOM SIZE AND ACOUSTICS ARE THE MISSING PIECE OF THIS PUZZLE. YOU CAN NEVER MADE AN INTELLIGENT SUGGESTION ABOUT HOW SOMEONE SHOULD SET THEIR LEVELS IF YOU KNOW ONLY WHAT SPEAKERS AND AMPS THEY HAVE.
Don't get all bent out of shape. I was just pointing out that you are barely using the "woofers" in your towers. They are only reproducing 100 to 125 Hz at the same levels as the rest of the content. If you got a great deal on them, and you've optimized the response in your room, it's all good.

My post was more for others reading along who may be considering towers with strong bass output in systems with subwoofer(s). In those cases, it is generally better to optimize the speakers in the range they will actually reproduce and send the bass to the sub(s).

And I completely agree that room size, listening distance and acoustics are paramount in the decision making algorithm. Nonetheless, for most HT systems, "LCR" designs used with bass Management make the most sense, financially and functionally.

Craig

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post #20 of 22 Old 03-17-2013, 08:56 PM
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Using a universal xo has some benefits concerning standing waves and the higher xo effects on standing waves in the room may be of benefit. Measurement equipment is needed to know for sure. I have Klipsch RF 7's and xo at 100 Hz. This sounds better than a lower xo and blends very well with the subs. My Pioneer Elite avr set the xo to 100 Hz. I have tried multiple different xo's, but 100 Hz sounds best to me. If the subs in the system are capable, they will produce better bass that the towers.

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post #21 of 22 Old 04-05-2014, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by djwest78 View Post

Because doing so allows me to play these speakers much louder especially when I am in multi channel listening, and all channels are going hard at once like during a battle scene. These guys would hog all the available dynamic power from the 6.0 amps overall output capacity of my receiver. There are people who post here who claim to use even higher crossovers than what was suggested here, with even BIGGER speakers. Must not just be me...

ROOM SIZE AND ACOUSTICS ARE THE MISSING PIECE OF THIS PUZZLE. YOU CAN NEVER MAKE AN INTELLIGENT SUGGESTION ABOUT HOW SOMEONE SHOULD SET THEIR LEVELS IF YOU KNOW ONLY WHAT SPEAKERS AND AMPS THEY HAVE.
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post #22 of 22 Old 04-05-2014, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by djwest78 View Post

No, I could not have gotten a better deal...on anything.
I paid a total of $360 for:
a pair of rti10
pair of rti 4
psw-505
csi5 center

That comes out to:
$60 per tower
$60 per bookshelf
$60 or a 12" 300w subwoofer
$60 for the center

All of which are in perfect condition.

Wow...that is a hell of a deal! Wish I could find one like that...

Casey
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