Just how much better is 2 subwoofers? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 143 Old 03-13-2013, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a BIC America F12 and I have a Klipsch RW12d on the way. At first, I was gonna upgrade TO the Klipsch. But after some bass fanboy thinking, I am tempted to atleast TRY 2 sub systems before I sell off the BIC. I've already watched some informative videos that tell you in technical terms how it can provide clearer, less distorted bass.

But I want to hear from the fanboy in you, is it really that much better?
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post #2 of 143 Old 03-13-2013, 03:02 PM
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Primary purpose for multiple subs is to reduce room nodes,

It's not noticeably louder, cleaner or less distorted, just more balanced across all listening positions.
 

 

I run a pair of  left/right 12's up front

and most recently ....added a near field 15" right behind my center seat and its Fantastic!



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post #3 of 143 Old 03-13-2013, 09:17 PM
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i run 4 12inch subs now side by side mine sound cleaner than just the one sub because I am no longer pushing subs to the limits
each one that I have added made it slightly louder maybe 3 dbls I guess I have two more in about a week for a total of six side by side
should be double or so of just the one i think but i have no meter
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post #4 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 08:20 AM
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From one sub to four? sure it would make an audible difference!

but only if the single was underpowered and maxed out fighting to pressurize a room that was much larger than a single could handle. wink.gif

 

 

Simply going from one to two sub's wont be as noticeable every case, the room volume and treatment both play a huge factor,

in addition to the sub's in question. One really good Sub can still easily out perform several weak subs.

 

Better safe than sorry, several Good Subs and remove all doubt. biggrin.gif



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post #5 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I see, guess I was a bit mistaken. Now how about in the case of two different subs? My new Klipsch RW12 seems to go lower with much less strain than my BIC F12 but the F12 from what I hear provides just a bit more mid range punch. Wouldn't having a combo of 2 subs like this provide a fuller and less "strained" bass in your movie soundtracks? (not compared to 1 much better sub, only compared to choosing one of BIC and Klip)

By the way I have both subs now and only waiting for cables I ordered. So I won't have to wait long to form my own opinion. So far, I like the klip much better but I want to see what these things can do together.
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post #6 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 08:38 AM
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2 subs is definitely better than 1. But I'm too anal to run 2 different subs. I run 2 identical subs. I will never go back to a single sub again. And in the future I may upgrade to 2 SubMs or 2 Caps Or maybe I'll just buy 2 more LFM-1 Plus's and have 4 of them in my room.

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post #7 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 08:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrowyn View Post

But I want to hear from the fanboy in you, is it really that much better?

Absolutely it's better but how much better is going be dependent on the output of the weakest subwoofer.

Think of a heavy lifting project that needs two people to lift the item carefully into place. At sixty years old, I'm the other half of the lifting equation. eek.gif

The object is two hundred pounds and it's an object your wife loves dearly. I can help but I'm the limitation, not you. When I give out, you're all that's left and it's the same with subwoofers, when the weaker of the two subs gives out, the better sub is all you have left and can that better sub, carry the sonic load?

If not, then it's not a good idea and why are you having an old man help you lift something your wife loves dearly that weights two hundred pounds? What were you thinking? That sort of thing.

In the end, one either has to dial back their expectations (get a lighter load) or they're going have to find a more qualified lifting partner (an equal or better sub) that's better suited for the sonic lifting task at hand.
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post #8 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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haha. good stuff. But I view my two boys as a 20yo and a 35yo (true fanatics will say I'm crazy I know) and I think the 35yo can provide some wisdom to fill in those little tiny areas that the 20yo just doesn't quite understand.

I think your analogy is like pairing a submersive with a polk PSW10.
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post #9 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 08:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Elrowyn View Post

haha. good stuff. But I view my two boys as a 20yo and a 35yo (true fanatics will say I'm crazy I know) and I think the 35yo can provide some wisdom to fill in those little tiny areas that the 20yo just doesn't quite understand.

The difference, at sixty, I'm still gaining wisdom to offset my loss of strength. OTOH, my subwoofers are as limited as they were the day they were made with the exception of the replaced drivers and radiators recently upgraded to and no matter the strengths of our subs, they're still limited by their weaknesses.

When the strength of the weaker subwoofer drops out of the sonic equation, all one has left is the other subwoofer to carry the sonic load. frown.gif

If one is going add a second or third, stronger sub to the equation, in my opinion, they need to add a sub that's two, maybe three steps up from the subwoofer system they're working with so there's plenty of headroom in the added sub to pickup where the other sub or subs, dropout at.

Something not said in our interaction, just an aside, with all of my blah, blah, blah above, in my opinion, properly integrated into your listening venue's acoustics, the F12 and the RW-12d, will play and get along well with each other.

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post #10 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I think it's not a good analogy to call a BICf12 the 65yo in a story with a Klipschrw12 being the 21yo stud.
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post #11 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 09:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Elrowyn View Post

I think it's not a good analogy to call a BICf12 the 65yo in a story with a Klipschrw12 being the 21yo stud.

I didn't do that so I'll drop out.
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post #12 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 09:27 AM
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When it comes to bass, the goal is smooth and even at all listening locations.
You achieve smooth bass response by utilizing multiple subwoofers.
Your better off spending the same amount of money on two subs that are
half the price of one good one.

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post #13 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 09:29 AM
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The sound quality of the F12 should be similar to that of the RW-12D from 30Hz and above. Below 30Hz is where the F12 would be non-existent as only the RW-12D would really produce any output. (Either usable or period, depending on your room.)

Now, trying to run these subs together with their not-so-similar frequency responses, will be tough. If you set both subs up to handle half of the sub duties, then you'll have nice strong, even response from 80Hz down to 30Hz. And a steep drop off below 30Hz as you'll basically be down to only one sub. This will give you a pretty uneven response in your room, and will most likely start to wear on you after a while.

What you can do to use both subs is put the F12 near you. Set it right next to your couch. Have the RW-12D setup as your main sub, while the F12 acts purely to shake you and your couch.

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post #14 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

When it comes to bass, the goal is smooth and even at all listening locations.
You achieve smooth bass response by utilizing multiple subwoofers.
Your better off spending the same amount of money on two subs that are
half the price of one good one
.

Well, sometimes this is true. If you buy two subs that can only dig down to 30Hz, you will only really have usable output down to 30Hz or so. Regardless of how smooth the response is in your room, you'll be missing out on a ton of bass content, and will most likely upgrade soon.

At the same time you could pick up a single sub that's usable down to 22Hz for the price of the two lesser subs. You won't have the added benefit of multiple subs for a more even room response. (As in, you will walk around your room and notice the bass levels vary greater). But you you'll have the ability to experience more bass content and ultimately should have a better experience.

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post #15 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 10:26 AM
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I had lived with my A5-350 (elemental designs 15) beside my TV for about a year. I really enjoyed it but there were certain area's of my room that had crazy bass and others that had nulls. I recently got another identical sub and placed it in the corner beside my couch. The difference is amazing. Not only is there more loudness and impact but it also got rid of the dead spots in the room and really evened out the response. I have not re ran audyssey yet but expect it to get even better.
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post #16 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 10:43 AM
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I read in a thread that if the subs are in different areas of the room it will only smooth things out but if they are very close side by side or stacked there should be a increase of about 3 dbls for each one
I will have six cheap subs all the same but better than the bic f-12 next week I will have to buy a meter so I can know the facts I only bought so many because so cheap I think I would have done allot better with two really good subs and not taken up so much space some day I think I will need to add a really good one to the mix to make a big difference with the others being helpers or use a couple of subs for parts to make a diy sub
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas 1966 View Post

I read in a thread that if the subs are in different areas of the room it will only smooth things out but if they are very close side by side or stacked there should be a increase of about 3 dbls for each one
I will have six cheap subs all the same but better than the bic f-12 next week I will have to buy a meter so I can know the facts I only bought so many because so cheap I think I would have done allot better with two really good subs and not taken up so much space some day I think I will need to add a really good one to the mix to make a big difference with the others being helpers or use a couple of subs for parts to make a diy sub

The conflict of principal with your above, inexpensive subs are limited in the lower frequencies and if one has a half dozen inexpensive subs, then what they have is a half dozen limited subs.

Yes, co-located subs have a synergistic boost but that's limited in the sense of a 3dB boost and as more subs are added, the benefit of the co-location boost decreases.

What brand/model of subwoofer did you buy? I ask so as to be able to check out the specs on these subs. If able, having the specs available is helpful in continuing a conversation of this kind.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas 1966 View Post

I read in a thread that if the subs are in different areas of the room it will only smooth things out but if they are very close side by side or stacked there should be a increase of about 3 dbls for each one
I will have six cheap subs all the same but better than the bic f-12 next week I will have to buy a meter so I can know the facts I only bought so many because so cheap I think I would have done allot better with two really good subs and not taken up so much space some day I think I will need to add a really good one to the mix to make a big difference with the others being helpers or use a couple of subs for parts to make a diy sub

I can confirm part of this. I stacked my a5-350's for a day. While it did increase volume substantially I still had room nulls. Plus it was an ugly eye sore. Separating them was the way to go.
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post #19 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The conflict of principal with your above, inexpensive subs are limited in the lower frequencies and if one has a half dozen inexpensive subs, then what they have is a half dozen limited subs.

Yes, co-located subs have a synergistic boost but that's limited in the sense of a 3dB boost and as more subs are added, the benefit of the co-location boost decreases.

What brand/model of subwoofer did you buy? I ask so as to be able to check out the specs on these subs. If able, having the specs available is helpful in continuing a conversation of this kind.
I am the guy posting about the jbl es250pbk open box at amazon for $104 they where so cheap I had to try this having a total of six next week I am happy with the four I have now I was hoping to get better results with six I should get a spl meter to get specs I Think maybe not to many people have tried this as it maybe somewhat of a waste compared with having two really good subs. I went to allot of music shows in thailand last year and they had crazy stacks and rows of subs that would shake you to the bones I was very concerned about my hearing as it was painful at one show and the pounding in my chest so hard I was joking saying if you died it would keep your hard pumping.but I think one of their subs in a small room would do the same and it took so many to do the same in an outside area.my subs are loud and really shaking the house but no chest pounding I guess I need one good sub to add to the mix.I thought if six does not do the trick maybe I could use the parts from two to make some kinda horn or something cheap I hope or switch speakers to daytons or what ever. amazon had another open box for $104 I had to really fight hard to keep from buying it I even had it in the cart it seems buying cheap subs is becoming an addiction.did some bass tests on youtube some crazy bass with a peak at 30hz and roll off at 25hz but still allot of bass at 20hz but not as much as 30hz for sure
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post #20 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slammin86 View Post

I can confirm part of this. I stacked my a5-350's for a day. While it did increase volume substantially I still had room nulls. Plus it was an ugly eye sore. Separating them was the way to go.
I think my four subs look kinda good together but when i cram two more in there next week it will begin look not so good and kinda ghetto ish lol
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I wish it were so much easier.

Regarding subwoofers, mid-bass slam is in the 40Hz to 80Hz range and if at your listening position, you have a listening null, without a room analyzing program to help you see this void, you're pretty much, out of luck. At to lower frequencies, lower is better but human hearing needs more energy focused at the lower frequencies to be perceived so despite a subwoofer being able to produce the lower frequencies, it's a matter of the subwoofer being able to produce usable lower frequencies at a level that can be utilized by human hearing.

The sub you listed (jbl es250pbk) would be great for augmenting a speaker system for the purpose of reproducing music. Not being Hawaiian, the next time you think about Hawaii and music, say hi to Brother Iz for me. But in the case of movie sound tracks, if the system isn't able to reproduce lower frequencies at a usable level, you're plain out of luck. Done, gone, turn out the lights, time to go home cause there ain't nothing to hear, here.

The point, there's only so much these subs are capable of and then all you're doing is magnifying the strengths and weaknesses of this genre of subwoofers.
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post #22 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Absolutely it's better but how much better is going be dependent on the output of the weakest subwoofer.

Think of a heavy lifting project that needs two people to lift the item carefully into place. At sixty years old, I'm the other half of the lifting equation. eek.gif

The object is two hundred pounds and it's an object your wife loves dearly. I can help but I'm the limitation, not you. When I give out, you're all that's left and it's the same with subwoofers, when the weaker of the two subs gives out, the better sub is all you have left and can that better sub, carry the sonic load?

If not, then it's not a good idea and why are you having an old man help you lift something your wife loves dearly that weights two hundred pounds? What were you thinking? That sort of thing.

In the end, one either has to dial back their expectations (get a lighter load) or they're going have to find a more qualified lifting partner (an equal or better sub) that's better suited for the sonic lifting task at hand.

BeeMan,

I don't always agree with your posts, but I do sooo love your creative analogies. wink.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #23 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

The sound quality of the F12 should be similar to that of the RW-12D from 30Hz and above. Below 30Hz is where the F12 would be non-existent as only the RW-12D would really produce any output. (Either usable or period, depending on your room.)

Now, trying to run these subs together with their not-so-similar frequency responses, will be tough. If you set both subs up to handle half of the sub duties, then you'll have nice strong, even response from 80Hz down to 30Hz. And a steep drop off below 30Hz as you'll basically be down to only one sub. This will give you a pretty uneven response in your room, and will most likely start to wear on you after a while.

What you can do to use both subs is put the F12 near you. Set it right next to your couch. Have the RW-12D setup as your main sub, while the F12 acts purely to shake you and your couch.

This is exactly what I did with my mis-matched sub and what I would highly recommend. I also run the mis-matched sub at a lower crossover (60hz) so it doesn't have to work as hard.

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post #24 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas 1966 View Post

I read in a thread that if the subs are in different areas of the room it will only smooth things out but if they are very close side by side or stacked there should be a increase of about 3 dbls for each one
I will have six cheap subs all the same but better than the bic f-12 next week I will have to buy a meter so I can know the facts I only bought so many because so cheap I think I would have done allot better with two really good subs and not taken up so much space some day I think I will need to add a really good one to the mix to make a big difference with the others being helpers or use a couple of subs for parts to make a diy sub

OMG! Punctuation, please. rolleyes.gif

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...but I do sooo love your creative analogies. wink.gifbiggrin.gif

...biggrin.gif
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post #27 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 02:53 PM
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Not being Hawaiian, the next time you think about Hawaii and music, say hi to Brother Iz for me.


Umm, Brother Iz died in 1997.

Just what exactly are you trying to tell Thomas? smile.gif

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Umm, Brother Iz died in 1997.

Just what exactly are you trying to tell Thomas? smile.gif

Even though I'm not from Hawaii, he's still missed. frown.gif And I thought it would be nice if the next time you think about music and Hawaii, you say hi for me because I know he's no longer with us.

KALEOHANO BRUDDAH IZ

Iz ~ Ka Pua U'i

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post #29 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 05:29 PM
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ok I got it my set up should be great for music but not so for HT and buying more of the same subs will change nothing for HT.
as I was doing yard work all day and thinking about this allot I see now If I want good bass for HT than I could do a DIY sub that peaks lower like at 20hz if there is one.
Buy or build a external crossover at 25hz so only 25hz and below go to this one sub if that is possible as I have not read anything on this yet and dont know much yet.
at least the op can see now better to have a couple good subs than half a dozen not so good subs.
I do not plan on seeing bruddah Iz anytime soon
but yes Iz was great
well those $104 subs will not be as tempting for me now, addiction cured Thanks
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post #30 of 143 Old 03-14-2013, 05:40 PM
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I must be getting tested because now amazon has one jbl es250pbk for $98.
O.k I can be strong and not buy it, but if I see one for $80 I dont think I can be so strong.
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