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post #1 of 37 Old 03-30-2013, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guysi need youre expertise here. Right now i have 1 sub dayton 1200 running on my 5.1 system and i am planning to get another dayton 1200 to have 5.2. My question is dual sub is better than 1 sub? Can i hear a huge sound upgrade from movies by using a dual sub? I always watch movies not really into music
Or is it better to get the klipsch 12d for 299 sale at newwegg rather than dual dayton 1200? Please advise me. Newbie here. Ty.

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post #2 of 37 Old 03-30-2013, 04:40 PM
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This recent thread may answer your question.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463175/just-how-much-better-is-2-subwoofers
+++

Keeping within my $500 budget, I bought a single Klipsch RW12d for $289, instead of two cheaper Dayton Audio 10" subs for $400 for the pair. I thought this would let me evaluate how a sub works with my 5.1 setup, and with my Onkyo 717 7.2 receiver I could easily match a second Klipsch if the single sub created problems.

I've had the Klipsch for about a week, and I think the single sub works just fine. It added some depth to my music and TV watching even in the voice range, and I can't hear the sub, I just hear the sound.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #3 of 37 Old 03-30-2013, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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no help at all on this sub forum nobody gives any advices to the newbie mad.gif

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post #4 of 37 Old 03-30-2013, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

no help at all on this sub forum nobody gives any advices to the newbie mad.gif

The answer is contained within the second posting in your thread. Briefly, two, if properly setup, will sound a lot better than one sub because of the evenness of the response within the room. The difference is not subtle.
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post #5 of 37 Old 03-30-2013, 09:24 PM
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As with anything that is subjective, "huge differences" are going to be up to the individual. In regards o 2 vs 1, dual subs will give you a little more output capability (about 3-6db) and can be very useful in keeping bass response even across multiple seats, or in rooms with poor acoustics. I don't have any firsthand experience with wither of the subs you mentioned, but I have run numerous single/dual/quad sub systems, and generally prefer multiples. I also tend to sit in several seats, and enjoy moves with my family/friends, so the larger "sweet spot" is very helpful to me.

In the end though, it is going to be a matter of personal preferences. Are you looking at smoothing out bass repose (is it boomy in some areas and almost non-existent in others?), or are you looking for more output (volume) at a single seat? Do you need to run the speakers at a higher crossover and running into issues with bass localization? Do you have the room to properly place and setup dual subs, or are you limited to one or two spots?

Here is a (uber)basic list of rules of thumbs that I use:

Go with a single sub when:
  • Budget doesn't allow for duals of an acceptable (subjective and personal) level of quality
  • Looking for max output in one seat for a given dollar amount
  • Space restricted (poorly setup duals are worse than an single of the same sub in a good location)
  • Want a simpler setup (cabling, location, tuning, etc are all easier with a single sub)


Go with duals when:
  • Looking for a wider sweet spot (not everyone really cares about this)
  • Looking to smooth out response (lumpy bass, etc).
  • Having issues with sub localization (running a higher crossover due to choice or necessity)
  • When dealing with a large or awkwardly shaped room (more subs in multiple locations can be more useful than a larger sub depending on the room layout)



There are many (!) more reasons someone will want/choose to go with either setup choice, but that covers the very basic reasons.


What size room do you have? What are your listening habits (loud and a lot of action flicks? Quiet with a lot of jazz/classical? Alone? With friends? etc).

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Augustine's Law: "The last 10% of performance generates one-third of the cost and two-thirds of the problems."

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post #6 of 37 Old 03-30-2013, 09:39 PM
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Two are far better than one. I am about to go to four.

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post #7 of 37 Old 03-30-2013, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

Hi guysi need youre expertise here. Right now i have 1 sub dayton 1200 running on my 5.1 system and i am planning to get another dayton 1200 to have 5.2. My question is dual sub is better than 1 sub? Can i hear a huge sound upgrade from movies by using a dual sub? I always watch movies not really into music
Or is it better to get the klipsch 12d for 299 sale at newwegg rather than dual dayton 1200? Please advise me. Newbie here. Ty.

In general, the purpose of getting 2 subs is to even out the bass response in a room that has dips. 2 Subs will more evenly fill out the room with bass frequencies, allowing all seating arrangements to get the full effect of the bass in viewing/listening content. You do get some additional volume from a twin sub setup, but generally not significantly more.

if you want more/deeper/louder bass, you want to upgrade your subwoofer to something larger (15" vs 12") better quality (the Klipsch 12 vs the Dayton 1200) and/or more powerful (the Klipsch 340 watt/RMS vs the Dayton's 120 watt RMS)

The Klipsch is likely better sounding than the Dayton. It should reach deeper and get louder than the 1200. if you want to improve the quality of your bass, this is the way to go. If you are happy with the quality of the bass from the Dayton, but just want a little more volume, then two Daytons might do that for you. Just don't expect a significant difference. And it shouldn't reach deeper, just provide a bit more volume and even out the response in your room.

I would say go with the Klipsch or something like a BIC PL-200 both of which put out quite a few more watts than that Dayton.

Here's another interesting thread for you to read. Might be an eye-opener for you.: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449563/velodyn-vx-11-dayton-sub-1200-or-bic-f12

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post #8 of 37 Old 03-30-2013, 11:47 PM
 
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Yes, get the second 1200, you WILL appreciate the NOTICEABLE improvement in bass quality.
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post #9 of 37 Old 03-31-2013, 04:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

Or is it better to get the klipsch 12d for 299 sale at newwegg rather than dual dayton 1200? Please advise me. Newbie here. Ty.

By all means, pick up the RW-12D with an eye on picking up a couple more RW-12D's.

The Dayton 1200 just does not have enough power output when compared to the RW-12D and if a subwoofer system is too anemic in output, you're going wonder where the bass is as there's not going be much bass output there.
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post #10 of 37 Old 03-31-2013, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys for good advices, but for now i cant afford to get the klipsch for only one 300 bucks. That is why i am thinking maybe 2 daytons will fill in for 1 klipsch. And my room is not thay big i live in an apartment so living roon not that big. Idk what to do now.

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post #11 of 37 Old 03-31-2013, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

Thanks guys for good advices, but for now i cant afford to get the klipsch for only one 300 bucks. That is why i am thinking maybe 2 daytons will fill in for 1 klipsch. And my room is not thay big i live in an apartment so living roon not that big. Idk what to do now.

I would always go with dual subs over using just one.
It's not about gaining extra output, it's about addressing the problem of standing waves in your HT.

At low frequencies the listening environment has a significant impact on the sound quality of an audio system.
Standing waves within the room cause large frequency-response variations at the listening locations.
Furthermore, the frequency response changes significantly from one listening location to another;
therefore the system cannot be equalized effectively.

However, through the use of multiple subwoofers the seat-to-seat variation in the frequency response
can be reduced significantly, allowing subsequent equalization to be more effective.

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post #12 of 37 Old 03-31-2013, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

I would always go with dual subs over using just one.
It's not about gaining extra output, it's about addressing the problem of standing waves in your HT.

At low frequencies the listening environment has a significant impact on the sound quality of an audio system.
Standing waves within the room cause large frequency-response variations at the listening locations.
Furthermore, the frequency response changes significantly from one listening location to another;
therefore the system cannot be equalized effectively.

However, through the use of multiple subwoofers the seat-to-seat variation in the frequency response
can be reduced significantly, allowing subsequent equalization to be more effective.

Ok here is my setup. If i buy another dayton 1200 can i put that next on my front R speaker?

I hope i am on the right direction buying another dayton 1200.

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post #13 of 37 Old 03-31-2013, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

Ok here is my setup. If i buy another dayton 1200 can i put that next on my front R speaker?

Yes you can put it next to your right speaker.

However, if possible, I would try and move the left sub, about a foot away from the corner wall.
Corner loaded subwoofers have a tendency to sound boomy.

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post #14 of 37 Old 03-31-2013, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

Yes you can put it next to your right speaker.

However, if possible, I would try and move the left sub, about a foot away from the corner wall.
Corner loaded subwoofers have a tendency to sound boomy.
What about if i will move my L front where the sub is and move the sub where my L front is and vice versa? Maybe much better?

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post #15 of 37 Old 03-31-2013, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

What about if i will move my L front where the sub is and move the sub where my L front is and vice versa? Maybe much better?

That would be better, but be careful that you don't get your left loudspeaker to close to the wall.

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post #16 of 37 Old 03-31-2013, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

That would be better, but be careful that you don't get your left loudspeaker to close to the wall.
I know but that is the only way i can put all of them together because of the spacing. But maybe it helps if i will put the foams at my speaker back ports?

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post #17 of 37 Old 03-31-2013, 08:59 AM
 
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Yes, you are indeed on the right track picking up another 1200...Remember, it isn't about actual output but rather the QUALITY of the audio that is what is important. cool.gif
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post #18 of 37 Old 03-31-2013, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok i think i will pull the trigger for another d 1200. What kind of wires do i need to buy? I already have 1 rca from my denon going to thesub so i need to buy another of those wire? And also i only have a entry level denon 1612 avr, if i get another d 1200 is that will be fine with my denon?

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post #19 of 37 Old 03-31-2013, 10:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

Ok here is my setup. If i buy another dayton 1200 can i put that next on my front R speaker?

I hope i am on the right direction buying another dayton 1200.

Personally, I don't think you are.

Do you have room measuring capability? For the price of a USB measuring microphone in tandem with a laptop and a REW (freeware) download with a sound level meter, one will be able to get the best out of their subwoofer playback system. If sticking with Dayton 1200's, although you state the room is small, you'll be better served with three 1200's over two as inevitably, Murphy's Law states, the worst null will always occur at the main listening position.

(Murphy didn't say that, I did but hey, I'd rather blame Murphy) tongue.gif

Where the 1200 will come up short is in the power department and trying to go with a second or third 1200 will help smooth out the room modes but won't give you desired headroom. My concern is, you're going spend the money and not be happy with the output. Sort of like putting wide tires on a woefully, underpowered car. No matter how hard you try, you just ain't gonna get those tires to break loose.

It's better to start with one Klipsch, RW-12D and add a second one later then continue by adding to an existing 1200 with another 1200.

Despite what some may say, output is everything and if you don't have output, why even go for it? Subwoofers are about power and authority over the lower frequencies.

Nothing worse then turning your system on......in time to be later disappointed during key moments in an action sequence. Just saying.

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post #20 of 37 Old 03-31-2013, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Woah! Okay, so maybe it is not right to get another d 1200. I just stick what i have for now! Thanks

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post #21 of 37 Old 03-31-2013, 10:44 AM
 
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My apologies if I read like a "Buzz-kill."

Currently, my recent efforts of the last few months have focused on getting the best out of what we have. This is being done in the form of measuring gear, subwoofer placement changes, trying different sound level meters, upgrading drivers/radiators, real ground loop busters, learning REW acoustical measuring software, stuffing boxes with sound deadening material, et cetera. That sort of inexpensive, by comparison, entertainment.

I've notice that there doesn't seem to be much effort to encourage learning about how to get the best out one's system, before upgrading their subwoofer system. My opinion has become, one should stop, put in the time to learn how to get the best out of what they have, before spending a boatload on better.

One will always have their room measuring capability (investment) and the education gained (skill set) while using this gear. Once one has measuring capability, pretty much, in my opinion, it's a safe ranch bet that there's zero chance one would ever go back to blindly setting up their subwoofer system. There's something way cool about being able to see your room's acoustical measurements and how minor changes to a subwoofer's placement or small changes in AVR/subwoofer settings, affects the next measurement iteration.

I think nothing but the best about the Dayton, 1200's but I also believe that it's a woefully underpowered subwoofer for what we all expect out of our subwoofer reproduction systems. My bet, the 1200's are to be seen as an excellent add, to a pair of mains and would be great at filling in a 60Hz to 80Hz null but would be a terrible addition if the expectation is to be more low level grunt. I believe the Klipsch, RW-12D and the BIC, PL200 to be minimum entry point subwoofers with personal expectations rising from there.

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post #22 of 37 Old 03-31-2013, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

My apologies if I read like a "Buzz-kill."

Currently, my efforts have focused on getting the best out of what we have in the form of measuring gear, sound meters, upgrading drivers/radiators, ground loop busters, subwoofer placement, REW, stuffing boxes with sound deadening material, et cetera. That sort of inexpensive, by comparison, entertainment.

I've notice that there doesn't seem to be much effort to encourage learning about how to get the best out one's system, before upgrading their subwoofer system. My opinion has become, one should put in the time to learn how to get the best out of what they have, before spending a boatload on better.

One will always have their room measuring capability and the education gained while using this gear. Once you have measuring capability, pretty much, there's zero chance one would ever go back to blindly setting up. There's something way cool about being able to see your room's acoustical measurements and how minor changes of a subwoofer's placement or small changes in AVR/subwoofer settings affects the next measurement iteration.

I think nothing but the best about the Dayton, 1200's but I also believe that it's a woefully underpowered subwoofer for what we all expect out of our subwoofer reproduction systems. My bet, the 1200's are an excellent add to a pair of mains and would be great at filling in a 60Hz to 80Hz null but would be a terrible addition if the expectation would be more low level grunt. I believe the Klipsch, RW-12D and the BIC, PL200 to be minimum entry point subwoofers with expectations rising from there.

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when you say underpower it is because the dayton has only 125 watts?

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post #23 of 37 Old 03-31-2013, 11:39 AM
 
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when you say underpower it is because the dayton has only 125 watts?

Because of the power output being 120w RMS and that's limited to approximately 25Hz. FWIW, I notice that when I check the Dayton website, they don't list the +/-3dB specification.

One is trying to pressurize their room and they're trying to do so in a couple hundred ms or less. The idea being, you're sitting, watching a movie that scene changes "BAMMMM!" and the expectation is, the subwoofer will get you where the sound mixing engineer wants to take you, it a tenth of a second, think quarter mile drag strip, not road racing; zero to a million and back down again in 200ms. That sort of thing.

If a subwoofer doesn't have the amplification (headroom) the listener is going be mighty disappointed. The larger and more open the room space, the more power is going be demanded out of the subwoofer system.

"Galaxy Quest"

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Do you want to be way in the back seat or up front, close and personal to the sound sequence? tongue.gif

Use your headphones. biggrin.gif

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post #24 of 37 Old 04-01-2013, 05:27 AM
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Take all the flawed information that BeeMan458 gave you with a grain of salt.

I'll reiterate...

Contrary to what you might think, having multiple subs in your HT is not about getting louder bass.

Two or more subwoofers dramatically reduces standing waves as well as providing better bass at all listening levels.

Never ever go with just one subwoofer.

Here's what Carl Kennedy from JL Audio had to say, “I’m rabid about using a pair of subs at a minimum.
In fact, I’ll often talk people out of using a sub at all until they can afford to get two.”

He used a terrific analogy of an A/C window unit versus central air.
The window unit (single sub) will deliver blasts of cool air at one spot, with little at others.

By using multiple subwoofers, you can greatly increase the room’s modal density, largely filling in the peaks
and dips, giving a smooth, articulate bass sound.
This improves the overall consistency of bass response from seat to seat.

That's something you can't achieve with a single subwoofer.

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post #25 of 37 Old 04-01-2013, 05:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

Take all the flawed information that BeeMan458 gave you with a grain of salt.

Care to take the time to point out anything I posted above, that was "FLAWED." .....confused.gif

To get the best out of "ANY" subwoofer system, one needs room measuring capability. There's "ZERO" chance of "ANYBODY" getting the best out of "ANY" system if not using room measuring devices.

Uncorrected, room sucking nulls do suck the life out of LFE based content and if the subwoofers can't keep up with the rest of the sound system, the subwoofers will be left behind.

Multiple subs do not remove standing waves as one needs room treatments to do that. Multiple subs helps overcome standing waves issues but doesn't rid a room of naturally occurring (non-subwoofer related) standing waves and sometimes, due to reinforcement issues, makes standing wave issues worse. Even when our sound system is turned off, the refrigerator and freezer are unplugged, all fans turned off, at the main listening position, our room has four measurable standing waves and none of them has to do with 60Hz as our room doesn't have a 60Hz standing wave issue and to make sure a 60Hz tone isn't introduced during measuring sessions, I use a quality ground loop buster to remove a particular, identified, system introduced ground loop problem.

Uncorrected ground loops add energy to measurements and give misleading readings. Ground loops "MUST" be corrected for or the measurements are not to be considered valid. Our ground loop issue adds a measured 13.1mV to the measurement reading. With the ground loop eliminator, the ground loop is reduced to 0.1mV.

Yes, multiple subs is about getting it loud (anybody who says it's not is only kidding themselves) as one has to pressurize the room and you ain't gonna fully pressurize a room with two or three, small, underpowered subwoofers. There's a reason subwoofers cost more than others and the ability to play it loud (lots of amplification put to large, capable drivers) is one of the reasons.

If one expects to be true to the sound engineer's intent, they need a sound system capable of reproducing what the sound engineer intended and LFE's are not intended to be played back on anemic gear nor is it expected for these effects to happen over long periods of time. Quality waterfall charts show subs responding in less than 400ms (200ms or better is better), so yes, it's expected for the rise and fall to take place in this short of a measured time frame. More then that and one ends up with fat, bloated, smeared, ill defined bass; not good.

There's a reason quality built subwoofers have powerful amplifiers, large magnets, stiff cones, better spiders, stiffer cabinet construction and by comparison, cost a boatload more over lesser driver/cabinet builds.

Lastly, multiple subwoofers "IS" about getting quality, "LOUD," sound in a Home Theater environment. Anybody, no matter their credentials, who says reference isn't about loud, is kidding themselves and maybe trying to kid others but they're not kidding me....wink.gif

I intentionally post in general terms as many here get very lost (caught up) in the esoteric nature of the pursuit and in doing so, lose the causal observer who's not up to their speed of thought. It never hurts to bring it down to Earth where the rest of us mortals live and play.

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post #26 of 37 Old 04-01-2013, 08:06 AM
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All things being equal, two subs are better than one. I think the klipsch is a significantly better sub than the Dayton, so I would get 1 klipsch for now and if uneven response is an issue, save up for a second klipsch later.
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post #27 of 37 Old 04-02-2013, 07:08 AM
 
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Gee, guys...give the OP a break! smile.gif

Getting another 1200 is aesthetically correct/pleasing, the sound will be matched as one sub will not overpower the other at any time so placement/setup is so much easier. 2 subs is indeed better than 1.

To the OP, that is one nice value system you will have there with the 2nd sub...one that many would have given their eye-teeth for as little as 5 years ago. smile.gif You won't get better without needing to start on the upgrade process which is expensive. I set my sister up with virtually your system (Denon 2310 used/eBay) and use the hi level inputs due to a faulty sub out jack on the 2310. With Audyssey MultEQ, fronts set to large, it sounds REALLY NICE...I tried convincing her to upgrade as I had found some deals and she and her family are so enthralled with the SQ, they do not want to change a thing.

Get the 1200, you won't be sorry, can sell it if you are, but most importantly, you'll get to experience what is; 2 subwoofers in your system. wink.gif
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post #28 of 37 Old 04-02-2013, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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guys thank you for all the ideas. here is another problem, newegg is having on sale now for klipsch rw 12d for 279.. if i get that i only have 1 sub, coz i know dayton 1200 will not be as accurate than klipsch, and another thing i am considering sombody from here wants to sell his 2 bic f12 i guess for 300 maybe lower than 300. what is youre thoughts guys? go for 1 klipsch or 2 bic f12 used? what are the advantages and disadvantages? thanks again.

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post #29 of 37 Old 04-02-2013, 07:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

here is another problem, newegg is having on sale now for klipsch rw 12d for 279.

---snip---

what are the advantages and disadvantages? thanks again.

Always buy the best one can afford. Never buy down because of quantity. Always go for quality. Nobody ever says; I wish I had bought the crappier model. You'll hear folks lament price but never do you hear them lament quality.

With the above in mind, buy a RW-12d from Newegg today. If the money's there, buy. Killer price. Don't get no better in price or quality.

And if after doing what I suggest in my above, with an eye on the near term future, buy a second or third sub to smooth out the room response. In my opinion, the current delivered RW-12d price is the best thing I know of that's happening. If you go cheaper, you're going short change yourself and you'll have to step up to the $500.00 class of subs to do better.

To be encouraging, I couldn't resist and ordered one myself. With tax and three day shipping, it works out to $300.99.

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post #30 of 37 Old 04-02-2013, 10:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Don't get no better in price or quality.
eek.gif Exsqueeze me? 2 1200's will hands down beat that klipsch in every way. Make no mistake as the OP knows this already, the 1200 is not to be discounted as a no name offering. Quite the contrary...Quality can and is had daily for less than paying for the moniker.
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