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post #211 of 238 Old 04-10-2013, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Two questions and I'll stop asking :

1) Crossover slopes aren't active if all speakers are set to Large?
2) If all speakers are Large then only the LFE is handled. So what could possibly be low-passed in the advanced subwoofer menu as the options range from 40-200 Hz? I can't imagine 40 Hz would low-pass the LFE as that would truncate bass from 40 -120 Hz. So what exactly is being low-passed if all speakers are Large?
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post #212 of 238 Old 04-10-2013, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Two questions and I'll stop asking :

1) Crossover slopes aren't active if all speakers are set to Large?
Of course not. Not on a conventional AVR. Unless a double bass setting is engaged.

There may be some "special" processors which do not have a conventional double bass setting that still allow a low pass to be set when the speakers are set to LARGE, thereby providing similar bass management schemes to those provided by a double bass setting.

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2) If all speakers are Large then only the LFE is handled.
Correct
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Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

So what could possibly be low-passed in the advanced subwoofer menu as the options range from 40-200 Hz? I can't imagine 40 Hz would low-pass the LFE as that would truncate bass from 40 -120 Hz. So what exactly is being low-passed if all speakers are Large?
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post #213 of 238 Old 04-10-2013, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Two questions and I'll stop asking :

1) Crossover slopes aren't active if all speakers are set to Large?
From this question, I have to wonder: are you setting your speakers to Large? If so, why? Do you have subwoofer(s)? What speakers do you have?
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2) If all speakers are Large then only the LFE is handled. So what could possibly be low-passed in the advanced subwoofer menu as the options range from 40-200 Hz? I can't imagine 40 Hz would low-pass the LFE as that would truncate bass from 40 -120 Hz. So what exactly is being low-passed if all speakers are Large?
Set your speakers to Small and don't worry about it.

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post #214 of 238 Old 04-10-2013, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim 
There may be some "special" processors which do not have a conventional double bass setting that still allow a low pass to be set when the speakers are set to LARGE, thereby providing similar bass management schemes to those provided by a double bass setting.


So what you are saying is that the Rotel processor is possibly applying some kind of double bass or LFE+Main setting or something. Then my friend has been correct all along as he said he has his low-pass set to 40 Hz with all speakers set to Large. What that ACTUALLY does is still unclear. I wish there was a definite answer on this.
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post #215 of 238 Old 04-10-2013, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john 
From this question, I have to wonder: are you setting your speakers to Large? If so, why? Do you have subwoofer(s)? What speakers do you have

RTI-A9's with CS-A6 center, RTI-A3 bookshelves. I do have a subwoofer. Paradigm Sub12. Right now I'm just trying to figure out how my friends processor is working so I can explain to him and try to convince him to change his method.

He currently has his system set up the way I've proposed (all speakers Large + subwoofer). I DO NOT have my system set up as all channels Large. I'm only trying to figure out for HIS sake what his processor is doing.

I've learned quite a few things in this thread, so at least I'm getting somewhere. But the Rotel manual I linked to does not really clarify what the subwoofer low-pass is actually low-passing. This is bugging me. I want to get to the truth and tell my friend. Then I can propose a different set up method that may improve his sound.
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post #216 of 238 Old 04-10-2013, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by craig john 
Set your speakers to Small and don't worry about it.

I have. I chose a 60 Hz crossover and I'm enjoying the sound more than before.
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post #217 of 238 Old 04-10-2013, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

So what you are saying is that the Rotel processor is possibly applying some kind of double bass or LFE+Main setting or something.
Basically, yes. YOU would have to look at the manual to confirm that. But there is a chance that instead of using the usual convention for a double bass setting (LFE+Main, Plus, Double Bass.) that it instead might offer that type bass management scheme by simply offering the ability in its setup menus to apply a low pass to LARGE channels.

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Then my friend has been correct all along as he said he has his low-pass set to 40 Hz with all speakers set to Large. What that ACTUALLY does is still unclear.
If it is operating as I described, above, then it is the same thing as using a double bass setting with a 40Hz low-pass applied to the front channel bass info that is duplicated at he subwoofer.

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I wish there was a definite answer on this.
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post #218 of 238 Old 04-10-2013, 02:54 PM
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The typical HPF2/LPF4 pre/pro crossover slopes were originally developed to satisfy THX set-up requirements. THX mandated a sealed speaker with an acoustic roll-off at 80 Hz. Since sealed speakers roll-off 2nd order, cascading a HPF2 results in a 4th order roll-off, which would then match the LPF4 being applied to the subwoofer.

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post #219 of 238 Old 04-10-2013, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I read the manual and I found this :
Quote:
CROSSOVER (40Hz/60Hz/80Hz/
100Hz/120Hz/150Hz/200Hz/OFF)

This setting specifies a master low-pass filter for the subwoofer and a corresponding high-pass filter for all SMALL speakers in the system at the selected frequency. To adjust thecrossover frequency, highlight the CROSSOVER line using the UP/DOWN buttons. Then, use the +/– buttons to chose the master crossover point. The 80Hz or 100Hz crossover points are the most common in home theater systems and should be used unless you have a specific reason to choose a different crossover point based on your specific speakers.

Bolded the part above. Which I take to mean that if all speakers are set to Large then the low-pass would not apply, since there are no Small speakers selected.
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post #220 of 238 Old 04-10-2013, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

I read the manual and I found this :
Bolded the part above. Which I take to mean that if all speakers are set to Large then the low-pass would not apply, since there are no Small speakers selected.
That's not necessarily how I would interpret that. It says a master low pass, with a corresponding high-pass for those speakers that are set to SMALL.

As I pointed out, that processor has different and more advanced bass management capabilities than most conventional AVRs. And I do not see a specific single setting that would provide double bass in the manual.

It would be simple enough to see if the processor provides subwoofer output when the speakers are set to LARGE. Just put on some 2 channel material. If the subwoofer operates, well, there you go.

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post #221 of 238 Old 04-10-2013, 11:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim 
As I pointed out, that processor has different and more advanced bass management capabilities than most conventional AVRs. And I do not see a specific single setting that would provide double bass in the manual.

I went through the manual last night and found this :

Page 36 "SUBWOOFER (yes/no/max): The YES setting is the standard setting if your system has a subwoofer. If your system does not have a subwoofer, select NO. Select the MAX setting for maximum bass output with normal bass being duplicated by both the subwoofer and any LARGE speakers in the system."
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post #222 of 238 Old 04-10-2013, 11:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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However I got confirmation from my friend that he has NOT selected the "Max" setting for the subwoofer, but the YES option.
Quote:
• Five LARGE speakers and sub-
woofer: This system requires no bass re-
direction. All five speakers play the nor-
mal bass recorded in their respective chan-
nels. The subwoofer plays only the LFE
channel bass.
Depending on the
soundtrack, there may be minimal use of
the LFE channel, so the subwoofer would
be under utilized. Meanwhile the normal
bass places higher demands on the capa-
bilities of the other speakers and the am-
plifiers driving them.

So the subwoofer low-pass options in the advanced menu are now not in effect?
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post #223 of 238 Old 04-11-2013, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

I went through the manual last night and found this :

Page 36 "SUBWOOFER (yes/no/max): The YES setting is the standard setting if your system has a subwoofer. If your system does not have a subwoofer, select NO. Select the MAX setting for maximum bass output with normal bass being duplicated by both the subwoofer and any LARGE speakers in the system."
Ah, right you are.

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However I got confirmation from my friend that he has NOT selected the "Max" setting for the subwoofer, but the YES option.
OK

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post #224 of 238 Old 08-03-2013, 07:53 PM
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Boy, this topic of bass management and double bass sure is confusing. I'm trying to make sense of it myself and tried doing the following diagrams to see if it helped clarify things for me.

First diagram is for normal bass management:



This one is for LFE+Main (as it is called on my Denon 4311 AVR). Here I'm assuming the mains x-over is set at 40Hz. By this I'm assuming the mains are set to play 40Hz on up. But what frequencies are directed to the sub? I've put 3-??Hz for now, not knowing what is "??".



If there are any errors do point them out, so I can correct the diagrams.
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post #225 of 238 Old 08-03-2013, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

If there are any errors do point them out, so I can correct the diagrams.

Any speakers set to large will receive a full range signal, which means that the crossover for the fronts will be ignored.
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post #226 of 238 Old 08-04-2013, 04:01 AM
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Any speakers set to large will receive a full range signal, which means that the crossover for the fronts will be ignored.

That's what I thought too, but on my Denon AVR the behaviour is different.

If mains set to "Large" and double bass is OFF, the crossover setting will say "Full Range".

If mains set to "Large" and double bass is ON, the crossover setting will become selectable and the lowest option is 40Hz. There is no "Full Range" option.
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post #227 of 238 Old 08-04-2013, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

That's what I thought too, but on my Denon AVR the behaviour is different.

If mains set to "Large" and double bass is OFF, the crossover setting will say "Full Range".

If mains set to "Large" and double bass is ON, the crossover setting will become selectable and the lowest option is 40Hz. There is no "Full Range" option.

If a speaker is set to Large and the subwoofer mode is LFE, the speaker will get a full-range signal, and the subwoofer will not see any signal for that channel.

If a speaker is set to Large and the subwoofer mode is LFE+Main, the speaker will get a full-range signal, and the subwoofer get a duplicate signal for that channel, which is low-passed at the selected frequency. This is not a 'crossover' per se since the speaker is still getting a full-range signal. It is only a low pass filter which is applied to the subwoofer signal only.

I would only recommend trying this option (as an alternative to Small/40) for a speaker which honestly extended well below 40 Hz (which is the deepest Small crossover), but wasn't truly full-range either. A large bass-capable tower which extends solid to say 25 Hz would fall into this category. It might sound/perform better than Small/40....or it might not. It depends on the room acoustics and how the individual sources of LF are phased and whether or not they interact positively or negatively.

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post #228 of 238 Old 08-04-2013, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
If a speaker is set to Large and the subwoofer mode is LFE, the speaker will get a full-range signal, and the subwoofer will not see any signal for that channel.

If a speaker is set to Large and the subwoofer mode is LFE+Main, the speaker will get a full-range signal, and the subwoofer get a duplicate signal for that channel, which is low-passed at the selected frequency. This is not a 'crossover' per se since the speaker is still getting a full-range signal. It is only a low pass filter which is applied to the subwoofer signal only.

I would only recommend trying this option (as an alternative to Small/40) for a speaker which honestly extended well below 40 Hz (which is the deepest Small crossover), but wasn't truly full-range either. A large bass-capable tower which extends solid to say 25 Hz would fall into this category. It might sound/perform better than Small/40....or it might not. It depends on the room acoustics and how the individual sources of LF are phased and whether or not they interact positively or negatively.

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Another way to think of the double bass setting:

The subwoofer is sent what it would be sent were the front speakers set to SMALL - that being the LFE channel plus any front channel bass below a particular low-pass frequency plus any rerouted bass below the crossover point from any other channels that might be set to SMALL - BUT the front speakers are still allowed to run as LARGE, receiving a full-range front channel signal.

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post #230 of 238 Old 08-04-2013, 01:39 PM
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got mine set on LFE+Main, all Speakers set to LARGE, Crossovers as set by Denon AVR-3312 after running Audyssey, for now, sounds much better...

will admit, my room is rather LARGE and SWers inadequate...will test again when I can swing another SW...

really don't care what others think, have read & re-read quite a bit, and tried it SMALL, LFE and 80 (or higher, if set that way)...also have tried it just as set by the AVR after running Audyssey...

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post #231 of 238 Old 08-06-2013, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

If a speaker is set to Large and the subwoofer mode is LFE, the speaker will get a full-range signal, and the subwoofer will not see any signal for that channel.

If a speaker is set to Large and the subwoofer mode is LFE+Main, the speaker will get a full-range signal, and the subwoofer get a duplicate signal for that channel, which is low-passed at the selected frequency. This is not a 'crossover' per se since the speaker is still getting a full-range signal. It is only a low pass filter which is applied to the subwoofer signal only.

I would only recommend trying this option (as an alternative to Small/40) for a speaker which honestly extended well below 40 Hz (which is the deepest Small crossover), but wasn't truly full-range either. A large bass-capable tower which extends solid to say 25 Hz would fall into this category. It might sound/perform better than Small/40....or it might not. It depends on the room acoustics and how the individual sources of LF are phased and whether or not they interact positively or negatively.

Thanks for the explanation Ed.

So I've updated the diagram for LFE+Main, would it be correct now?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

I would only recommend trying this option (as an alternative to Small/40) for a speaker which honestly extended well below 40 Hz (which is the deepest Small crossover), but wasn't truly full-range either. A large bass-capable tower which extends solid to say 25 Hz would fall into this category.

Would a PSB Synchrony One (On Axis @ 0°±3dB, 30-23,000Hz) also fall into this category?
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post #233 of 238 Old 08-06-2013, 08:38 AM
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Would a PSB Synchrony One (On Axis @ 0°±3dB, 30-23,000Hz) also fall into this category?

Most probably yes. I auditioned synchrony one towers in 5.1 set up in a very well acoustically treated room with The Dark Knight Rises and they struggled with stuff down low. They were set as large and the sub was only doing LFE duties. Yes you can cross them around 50-60Hz; but below that a sub really shines for movies. For 2-channel music they are fantastic as large though.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

Thanks for the explanation Ed.

So I've updated the diagram for LFE+Main, would it be correct now?


Yes, the diagram is correct for LFE+Mains.

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post #235 of 238 Old 08-07-2013, 04:38 AM
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Thanks at least I understand the matter clearly now.
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post #236 of 238 Old 08-07-2013, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Most probably yes. I auditioned synchrony one towers in 5.1 set up in a very well acoustically treated room with The Dark Knight Rises and they struggled with stuff down low. They were set as large and the sub was only doing LFE duties. Yes you can cross them around 50-60Hz; but below that a sub really shines for movies. For 2-channel music they are fantastic as large though.

They were powered by NAD T787/NAD 275Bee pre/pro.
Indeed, for the deep stuff a sub would shine - that's what they were built for! smile.gif

Yes, the Synchrony Ones do well for 2 ch music.
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post #237 of 238 Old 08-07-2013, 08:45 AM
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Yes, the Synchrony Ones do well for 2 ch music.

Indeed, but with 300 wpc @ 4 ohms on tap. smile.gif

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Indeed, but with 300 wpc @ 4 ohms on tap. smile.gif

I have 600W @ 4 ohms for them. Very effortless driving.
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