Double bass and bass management - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 02:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Please correct me if I'm wrong but when double bass is set to "on" on amps like the onkyo and denon then the system is bass managed and the very low frequencies are still sent to the subwoofers and you can have the advantage of having the front speakers set to full band?
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post #2 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 02:48 AM
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The double bass feature redirects the bass from the front left and right speakers to the subwoofer. The best thing to do is to turn it off and set all of your speakers to "100-120hz" in the receivers setup menu. Then in the receivers menu set the LFE to "100-120hz". Now, on the back of the subwoofer itself turn the crossover dial to it's highest point. If you can set it between 50hz to 150hz then set it to 150hz. That way you are only using the crossover in the receiver. If your sub has a switch that says "internal" or "direct", be sure to set it to "direct".

If you run one or more subs, you never want your speakers set to full. If you want more bass from your mains, you can lower the crossover to say, 60hz or 80hz, depening on speakers and sub.


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post #3 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 03:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So the main speakers won't be handling all the bass in its own channel, it will be redirected to the sub?
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post #4 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 03:45 AM
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Everything from the crossover point down will go to the sub. Everything above will go to the mains.

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post #5 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 04:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, but if I have main speakers and double bass, doesn't that mean the mains will be handling full range? So the sub won't be redirecting bass from the mains? It will be copying bass from the mains? Isn't that correct?
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post #6 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Yes, but if I have main speakers and double bass, doesn't that mean the mains will be handling full range? So the sub won't be redirecting bass from the mains? It will be copying bass from the mains? Isn't that correct?
The answer to the first question is Yes. After that it gets confusing. The sub does not direct anything. The AVR does. And what frequencies are directed where depends on how you set up the speakers AND crossovers.

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post #7 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 04:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Alright I read a little and apparently double bass is just sending redundant bass information from the main channels to the subwoofer. So there is no bass management going on as far as I understand it. If all channels are set to Large with double bass then the sub is just reproducing the bass that is already in the main channels. It is a copy of the same signal.

Where does the bass management come from?
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post #8 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 04:58 AM
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now i suppose the question is does it ever make sense to copy the sub bass in both the sub(s) and the mains?
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post #9 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe0Bloggs View Post

now i suppose the question is does it ever make sense to copy the sub bass in both the sub(s) and the mains?
Yes.

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post #10 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 05:12 AM
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http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/61260#post_23158870

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post #11 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 06:09 AM
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I can't remember where I read it, but someone said that the double bass feature was more or less for people who can't stand to think of their floor speakers being "small" and would rather call them "big".

You want your AVR to manage your bass, decide the cross over point, and direct the LFE signal to the appropriate speaker (the SUB).

Personally, I don't see the point of sending a duplicate bass signal to the mains and the sub, in fact I just wouldn't ever do it. LFE is tricky and you are more likely to muddy your bass and affect room modes and create nulls than you are to help it in any way. JMHO.

Depending on your speakers, your mains may play a cleaner 60hz than your sub, in that case, if it sounds better for you having your mains play it, adjust the crossover to 60hz, (or wherever the sub starts playing cleaner bass to your ears). This is usually 60-120 hz, YMMV.


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post #12 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 06:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McStyvie View Post

Personally, I don't see the point of sending a duplicate bass signal to the mains and the sub, in fact I just wouldn't ever do it. LFE is tricky and you are more likely to muddy your bass and affect room modes and create nulls than you are to help it in any way. JMHO.

Actually, based on many personal room measurements, your above is fact, not opinion. tongue.gif

Quote:
Depending on your speakers, your mains may play a cleaner 60hz than your sub, in that case, if it sounds better for you having your mains play it, adjust the crossover to 60hz, (or wherever the sub starts playing cleaner bass to your ears). This is usually 60-120 hz, YMMV.

Currently, our mains and center channel are crossed over at 40Hz and the surrounds are crossed over at 60Hz (mains large, center channel and surrounds, small, LFE+Mains @ 120Hz) all settings have been verified by countless room readings to provide the strongest/tightest measurement. No room treatments allowed.

If a few days, a third sub will arrive and I'll play with this third sub to see how a third sub impacts a particular life sucking, 80Hz null I can't get rid of. eek.gif

So far, where the rubber meets the road, the only things I've found that aren't out to lunch are, Audyssey, DSPeaker, (Anti-Mode), REW and a way cool sound level meter I found that didn't come from Radio Shack. Everything else is subjective personal opinion or blarney and if one likes going crazy, needs to be taken with a grain of salt. cool.gif

I've found, part of the bass management problem lies in the fact that most don't understand the purpose of LFE and that it's an "effect" not a constant source sound. If one approaches the LFE channel from the view that it's suppose to be heard 24/7, then the LFE channel is not being set up properly. Then there's this whole "reference" thingy that's not being held to real world standards and I find the use of which is being abused as opposed to being respected and not used for it's intent, headroom for momentary "effect."

The point of the above babbling, it was very gratifying to read what you posted in your above, or if you will, your words were the proverbial breath of fresh air. tongue.gif

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post #13 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 06:24 AM
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Sending a duplicate signal to bass and subs can help with localization and give you a smoother response. But not an entirely duplicate signal. Only overlapping ones.

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post #14 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Isn't "double bass" a complete duplicate bass signal (from the mains) to the sub? I thought it would was.
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post #15 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Isn't "double bass" a complete duplicate bass signal (from the mains) to the sub? I thought it would was.

Yes, AFAIK. So, theoretically, bass in the frequencies where the mains' and sub's outputs overlap is "too hot" since you are reproducing the original levels twice, and the bass the sub reproduces below the mains' rolloff point is quieter than the bass in the overlap region. SO while you get a bass boost (which folks may well like) in the overlap region, you don't have the same boost at lower frequencies and impact (especially compared to the boosted frequencies) is lost.

I sure wish the manufacturers would use the correct label (something like "engage bass management") instead of "small" so folks wouldn't feel like they were betraying their speakers to use appropriate bass management.
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post #16 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz 
Yes, AFAIK. So, theoretically, bass in the frequencies where the mains' and sub's outputs overlap is "too hot" since you are reproducing the original levels twice, and the bass the sub reproduces below the mains' rolloff point is quieter than the bass in the overlap region. SO while you get a bass boost (which folks may well like) in the overlap region, you don't have the same boost at lower frequencies and impact (especially compared to the boosted frequencies) is lost.

Okay, so then please correct me if I'm wrong. Double bass is not any form of bass management? If it is set to on, the main speakers are full range, so no crossovers are used, and the sub is handling the same information as the mains? Bass management is only when speakers are set to small?
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post #17 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Okay, so then please correct me if I'm wrong. Double bass is not any form of bass management? If it is set to on, the main speakers are full range, so no crossovers are used, and the sub is handling the same information as the mains? Bass management is only when speakers are set to small?

No. When you use double bass (i.e. LFE+Main), bass management is still in effect for the subwoofer. If your crossover is set to 80hz, the sub is getting nothing above that crossover point.
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Actually, based on many personal room measurements, your above is fact, not opinion. tongue.gif
Currently, our mains and center channel are crossed over at 40Hz and the surrounds are crossed over at 60Hz (mains large, center channel and surrounds, small, LFE+Mains @ 120Hz) all settings have been verified by countless room readings to provide the strongest/tightest measurement. No room treatments allowed.-

What are you saying Beeman?? You agree with McStyvie when he says to never use double bass, but then you say you are using double bass...?? confused.gif


Personally, I have measured my room with double bass on and off. It measures better with double bass on, and sounds much better to my ears. I'm gonna keep my double bass on, I don't care what anyone says! cool.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #18 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post


What are you saying Beeman?? You agree with McStyvie when he says to never use double bass, but then you say you are using double bass...?? confused.gif

This should be fun. I see some new definitions coming....
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post #19 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P 
When you use double bass (i.e. LFE+Main), bass management is still in effect for the subwoofer. If your crossover is set to 80hz, the sub is getting nothing above that crossover point.

But if you set speakers to large and double bass then you can't select a crossover. So how can there be bass management? I don't understand.
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post #20 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 11:40 AM
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For 2.0 music I run my sub very hot and I have the avr xover at 100. Sub xover at 105. And with the built in eq of the avr I boost the towers +4 at 100Hz and set the towers to large. This gives me significant bass from the towers and removes localization and provides a smoother response as well as helps to avoid nulls or valleys in the room.

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post #21 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

But if you set speakers to large and double bass then you can't select a crossover. So how can there be bass management? I don't understand.

Ummm...what I meant to say was - Bass management is still in effect for all speakers except the fronts. Yeah, that's what I meant. wink.gif

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post #22 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P 
Ummm...what I meant to say was - Bass management is still in effect for all speakers except the fronts. Yeah, that's what I meant

Oh... okay! Makes sense. But if all speakers are set to Large then bass management would not be in effect. Correct? Double Bass would not have any effect on the bass management? Sorry for asking these questions, I'm a very slow learner. frown.gif
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post #23 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 12:14 PM
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Bass management is too broad a term. Thats why youre getting confused. If you want to know what is affected you need to be more specific. If you dont understand it enough to be more specific in your questions then set the fronts to small and let the avr take care of the rest of it.

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post #24 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I assume bass management is the act of redirecting bass from one channel to another. If all speakers are set to large then no crossovers are used so no bass management takes place. The sub handles the LFE and that's that. That is how I understand it. If speakers are set to small then bass management is in effect as the bass below the crossover is redirected to the sub.

Again this is how I understand it. If double bass is set to on then the sub is handling another copy of main channel bass. If other speakers are set to small then bass management is engaged, but if all speakers are set to large and double bass is set to on then???
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post #25 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Okay, so then please correct me if I'm wrong. Double bass is not any form of bass management? If it is set to on, the main speakers are full range, so no crossovers are used, and the sub is handling the same information as the mains? Bass management is only when speakers are set to small?
something has to define what is "bass" to send to the sub. Looking quickly at the Denon 3313 manual, here's what it says about setting a crossover: "If set to “LFE+Main”, this setting can be made regardless of the speaker size."

so in double bass settings, the "crossover" setting will only activate the low pass for the sub, and the high pass for the mains will be ignored (it's the only way it could work, AFAIK).

To the extent that bass management means utilizing crossovers to move low frequencies out of main speakers and into the sub, it is not occurring. But in a way half of bass management is occurring: the low pass for the sub remains settable, it seems to me . . .
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post #26 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This is what confused me I think :
Quote:
Double Bass or LFE+Main:
Manufacturers have different names for this option.

Double Bass On (Onkyo) = LFE + Main (Denon) = Both (Yamaha)

When you use these options, Bass management becomes enabled for Large (Full Band) speakers. The frequency below which the signals from the main speakers are sent to the subwoofer is set automatically in the Onkyo or can be changed to any number you like in Denon's implementation. Onkyo and Denon use Audyssey and this information is verified by Audyssey.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817

I never knew double bass or LFE+main meant bass management would still be enabled. I also didn't know you could select a crossover frequency for LFE+Main in the Denon receivers, as the article suggests. I have an Onkyo and I don't think I can do this.
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post #27 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz 
To the extent that bass management means utilizing crossovers to move low frequencies out of main speakers and into the sub, it is not occurring. But in a way half of bass management is occurring: the low pass for the sub remains settable, it seems to me . . .

Yes but what is the sub receiving? Another copy of the main channel bass. So what does the LPF of the sub have to do with anything? It's just receiving a full range signal isn't it? I know there is an LPF of LFE setting but I don't think it has anything to do with anything. I have that set to 120 Hz.
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post #28 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Yes but what is the sub receiving? Another copy of the main channel bass. So what does the LPF of the sub have to do with anything? It's just receiving a full range signal isn't it? I know there is an LPF of LFE setting but I don't think it has anything to do with anything. I have that set to 120 Hz.

The electrical representation of a soundwave does not have little signs on it saying "this part is bass, and this part is mids and this part is treble" From the persepctive of the incoming signal, it's all one signal. To send the bass to the sub, you are (by definition) NOT sending the mids and treble. Without a low pass for the sub the sub would get the full range input from the main channels. And you'd probably dislike the sound of the sub trying to reproduce some of those tones. So to send the bass to the sub, you have to scrape off the mids and highs.. That's what a low pas filter does. WHERE you scrape them off is defined by the crossover setting, because people call stuff up to 200 Hz and beyond "bass," and you don't likely want that going to the sub.
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post #29 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

something has to define what is "bass" to send to the sub. Looking quickly at the Denon 3313 manual, here's what it says about setting a crossover: "If set to “LFE+Main”, this setting can be made regardless of the speaker size."

so in double bass settings, the "crossover" setting will only activate the low pass for the sub, and the high pass for the mains will be ignored (it's the only way it could work, AFAIK).

To the extent that bass management means utilizing crossovers to move low frequencies out of main speakers and into the sub, it is not occurring. But in a way half of bass management is occurring: the low pass for the sub remains settable, it seems to me . . .
In an Onkyo, there are only settings for 'Full Range" or crossover selections. If you select "Full Range" there is no ability to set crossovers on those channels. You can only set "Double Bass" to on if you have selected "Full Range" on the front LCR's. I have no idea what bass from the LCR's is sent to the sub(s) with Double Bass, but the user does not get to select a low pass for the subwoofer. I don't use it at all, so I've never really played around with it. It seems like a dumb setting to me. Just use crossovers.

From the DHC 80.3 manual:
Quote:

Double Bass
On
Off(THX)

Turn this setting on to boost bass output by feeding bass sounds from the front left, right, and center channels to the subwoofer.

Note
• This function can be set only if the Subwoofer setting is set to 1ch or 2ch and the Front setting is set to Full Band
• If you’re using THX-certified speakers, select Off(THX)

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Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."


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post #30 of 238 Old 04-03-2013, 12:56 PM
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So the Onks have a fixed low pass for the double bass setting, of unknown value. They still have to low pass (at some frequency) to keep the 20KHz stuff out of the sub . . .
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