VTF-3 - Not Getting Enough Bass Out Of It - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 09:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 2,924
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

His ceilings are only at 6.5'. So 17 X 2 0 X 6.5 = 2210 cubic feet OR 17 X 28 X 6.5 = 3094 cubic feet.

My room is about 2500 cubic feet but it has a 4' opening floor to ceiling to the rest of the house. I have 2 Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus's and they are more than enough for that room. I can shut either one of my subs off and its still good in that room. So if 1 Plus can fill my room I think 1 VTF3.4 can fill the OP's room considering his sub is better than mine and it appears that his room is sealed mine is not.

My math did always suck....thanks for the correction!

AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
CC: Klipsch RC64ii
SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4
SUB: PSA XS15 x 4 (Soon to be replaced with dual T-18s!)
DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740
Alan P is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 09:49 AM
Member
 
Joe0Bloggs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Yup. But -4.5dB for your sub (assuming your speakers are at around 0dB) seems reasonable, so I wouldn't play with the gain on the sub. Bumping the level in the AVR by 2-3dB will help a bit. But if you're still not getting the kind of bass you think you should be getting, then it's back to what others have already said:
- you're sitting in a null; and/or
- you simply don't have enough sub to meet your expectations in your HT space.

I would think that avr dialing his bass down 4.5dB from 9 o'clock and then him not finding the bass sufficient indicates a problem with the audyssey calibration process more than anything. Recommend he go look up the audyssey calibration guide
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/5700

He probably put his mic someplace that wasn't representative of the amount of bass he'd be getting at his ears... might have left the mic lying on the couch or something...

Not that I know about these things, my sub is connected to the computer and I tuned my system entirely by ear with the help of loudness compensated sine tones, something like this smile.gif
http://www.head-fi.org/t/615417/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-advanced-tutorial-in-progress
Joe0Bloggs is offline  
post #33 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 11:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fjames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,280
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed3120 View Post

- When I watch TV (through a Tivo connected via an optical cable), I feel like I barely ever hear any bass.
- When I play a racing video game, I get a good amount of constant bass.
- When I watch a movie, I get good bass sometimes, but I need to crank the overall volume on the amp.
- When I listen to music, the bass is there, but it’s not tight and there is no punch in the chest.

What could I be doing wrong?

What could be wrong is your expectations. How many subs have you owned? Did you have another one that was satisfactory, and the Hsu isn't in comparison?

Some of these sub threads seem to me to be like a guy playing a solo tuba recording and complaining about the tweeter smile.gif

My standing joke about sub people is - There are two kinds of sub guys, those who say "I can't hear my sub, what's wrong?" and guys who say "I can hear my sub, what's wrong?"

Your sub operates in a range where 90% of the time you shouldn't be aware of it because there isn't that much low bass in most things, and the rest of the time it's just "filling in" the missing bits that the main woofer is mostly covering.

And of course, you've got a concrete floor, so it's not flexing, and that flexing (that you'd get with a wood floor) is a lot of the physical impression you get from a sub.

Your Q7 setting is the "loosest" setting available - guys with Hsu subs that like "tight" bass go with Q3. I use Q5 as a compromise (actually one tick lower than 5.) That kick you want is mostly upper bass, so going both ports open gives you some more output/headroom there.

If you had a null issue, you wouldn't have bass in games, movies and music. Try a Q3 setting and test with music (which you say isn't tight enough.) As you lower Q, you also lower output at certain frequencies, so rerun Audyssey after setting it.

"Good bass sometimes" in movies is because sometimes movies have good bass and sometimes they don't smile.gif Turning system volume up just means you like it louder, or it was low enough to start that you're victim of the lower sensitivity to bass that is human hearing - experiment with Dynamic EQ if you haven't.

Most TV is bass free, so you shouldn't be hearing what isn't there.

So - your floor is reducing the physical impression of bass, your expectations aren't in line with reality (you shouldn't hear bass that isn't there, so all you're doing by turning up the sub is exaggerating frequencies that were in balance until you changed it) and your settings on the sub might not be the best for the kind of sound you like (try both open/EQ2/Q3 and rerun Audyssey.)

Eve: I thought I was through getting involved with men who were trouble. Falling in love on a look. I can't look at you.

Mickey: You have perfection about you. Your eyes have music. Your heart's the best part of your body. And when you move, every man, woman and child is forced to watch.
fjames is offline  
post #34 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ed3120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 301
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe0Bloggs View Post

I would think that avr dialing his bass down 4.5dB from 9 o'clock and then him not finding the bass sufficient indicates a problem with the audyssey calibration process more than anything. Recommend he go look up the audyssey calibration guide
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/5700

He probably put his mic someplace that wasn't representative of the amount of bass he'd be getting at his ears... might have left the mic lying on the couch or something...

Not that I know about these things, my sub is connected to the computer and I tuned my system entirely by ear with the help of loudness compensated sine tones, something like this smile.gif
http://www.head-fi.org/t/615417/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-advanced-tutorial-in-progress

The mic was mounted on a boom stand at ear level in my primary seat and several spots on my couch (8 total) about 18 inches apart. I've read the Audyssey guide and I'm pretty sure that I did everything correctly. I've done it several times, so I comfortable ruling out my user error. smile.gif
ed3120 is offline  
post #35 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ed3120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 301
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames View Post

What could be wrong is your expectations. How many subs have you owned? Did you have another one that was satisfactory, and the Hsu isn't in comparison?

You could be right with that. 15 years ago, I had a TV hooked to a 2.1 set of computer speakers in a small room. I'm sure they were terrible in comparison to what I have now, but it was the first time that I heard bass in TV shows. Even commercials had a surprising amount of bass compared to standard TV speakers. I enjoyed it at the time. Then I built my first home theater with an Onkyo HTIB. It had a cheapo subwoofer, but it was OK because it shook my wood floor. It died one day and I replaced it with a Polk PSW100 (again, more garbage, but I could hear and feel some bass, it wasn't great, but I got my money's worth for the $100 that it cost me). Eventually, I cleaned up my basement and made that the home theater room. I moved the Polk down there and I felt it was underpowered (it obviously was…bigger room, concrete floor, etc.). Most times, I wouldn't hear any bass, but certain times it actually impressed me. I remember watching the trainwreck scene in Super 8 and the sub really came to life at that moment. Maybe it happened to hit at a frequency that agreed with the sub, or maybe it was exaggerated by the room, but it was pretty cool. There were a couple of video games that I would play here and there that would have low bass that sounded pretty good. One racing game would have constant low bass as you were driving. Other than those few times, I feel like the sub was non-existant.

Now I’ve got the VTF-3, which I thought would give every TV show and commercial that fuller sound that I remember getting from my old 2.1 system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames View Post

And of course, you've got a concrete floor, so it's not flexing, and that flexing (that you'd get with a wood floor) is a lot of the physical impression you get from a sub.

Yeah, I agree that the floor is messing me up here. I guess I was hoping for some “feeling” to reach my couch. Maybe I need to add one of those buttkicker things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames View Post

Your Q7 setting is the "loosest" setting available - guys with Hsu subs that like "tight" bass go with Q3. I use Q5 as a compromise (actually one tick lower than 5.) That kick you want is mostly upper bass, so going both ports open gives you some more output/headroom there.

I guess I’m still learning what I want. On paper, I thought I wanted the lowest bass response to get the most rumble, so I went with one port open and Q7. I recently tried switching to two ports open with Q3 and EQ1. I haven’t noticed a real difference in the setting with regular TV, but maybe that’s because bass is usually going to be disappointing in TV and I need to try with a movie or video game. I watched Game of Thrones the other night, a TV show that I think would equate more to a movie, bass-wise, but there still really wasn’t any impact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames View Post

"Good bass sometimes" in movies is because sometimes movies have good bass and sometimes they don't smile.gif Turning system volume up just means you like it louder, or it was low enough to start that you're victim of the lower sensitivity to bass that is human hearing - experiment with Dynamic EQ if you haven't.

Maybe I do need to play with Dynamic EQ more. I’m thinking that one of my problems is that I feel that some things have almost enough bass and other things do not. I’d rather have a more consistent bass level, which would lead me to believe that a compressor, such as Dynamic EQ could help even out the bass level of different sources. I have the default Dynamic EQ settings currently, which would be the 0db offset. Would changing to a higher offset (5, 10, or 15 are the options) help correct this, or would it be pushing me in the wrong direction? I get confused whenever I read the offset instructions.

Thanks for all of the help.
ed3120 is offline  
post #36 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 02:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 2,924
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed3120 View Post

Maybe I do need to play with Dynamic EQ more. I’m thinking that one of my problems is that I feel that some things have almost enough bass and other things do not. I’d rather have a more consistent bass level, which would lead me to believe that a compressor, such as Dynamic EQ could help even out the bass level of different sources. I have the default Dynamic EQ settings currently, which would be the 0db offset. Would changing to a higher offset (5, 10, or 15 are the options) help correct this, or would it be pushing me in the wrong direction? I get confused whenever I read the offset instructions.

Thanks for all of the help.

The 0db offset will give you the most exaggerated bass (and surrounds), so there's nothing for you to do there. One thing I've done to improve bass on regular TV is to bump up the input level, I've got mine on +5 but it will go higher. This will essentially give you more Dynamic EQ because you will have to lower the master volume to get the same sound level, making Dynamic EQ work even harder.

You are NOT using Dynamic Volume, are you?

AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
CC: Klipsch RC64ii
SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4
SUB: PSA XS15 x 4 (Soon to be replaced with dual T-18s!)
DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740
Alan P is online now  
post #37 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ed3120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 301
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm currently have Dynamic EQ enabled with a 0db offset.

With your current settings, do you hear a lot of bass when watching TV, or only during movies/games?

So bumping up the input level, would basically add more bass compression and increase bass at lower volume settings, but leave it alone more as the volume is turned up, correct?
ed3120 is offline  
post #38 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 03:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 2,924
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 426
^^^

I only have the input level bumped up for the input my DirecTV receiver is using. The bass I get for movies (mostly blu ray) is just fine with no input level adjustment. I don't game much, so can't comment on that.
Quote:
So bumping up the input level, would basically add more bass compression and increase bass at lower volume settings, but leave it alone more as the volume is turned up, correct?

Correct.

AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
CC: Klipsch RC64ii
SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4
SUB: PSA XS15 x 4 (Soon to be replaced with dual T-18s!)
DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740
Alan P is online now  
post #39 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 03:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 2,924
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 426
And you didn't say, you're not using Dynamic Volume are you?

AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
CC: Klipsch RC64ii
SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4
SUB: PSA XS15 x 4 (Soon to be replaced with dual T-18s!)
DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740
Alan P is online now  
post #40 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
ed3120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 301
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
No, I'm not using Dynamic Volume.

I didn't realize the input trim could be set on each source. I could possibly turn up the trim on my Tivo and leave it as is on my bluray player. Would that result in the Tivo being louder in overall volume than my bluray player when I switch between them, or would it just mean that my Tivo would get more compression in the bass frequencies?
ed3120 is offline  
post #41 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 03:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bsoko2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 4,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed3120 View Post

When I run Audyssey with the Sub gain at 9:00, Audyssey sets my sub to around -4.5dB. Doesn't that mean if I turn the sub gain up any higher, it's going to try to lower it further (i.e. set it closer to the -12db limit)? I usually turn the sub gain up a little after running Audyssey.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/824554/setting-up-your-home-theater-101
this is a good site for all kinds of info on setting up a HT and scroll down to the subwoofer section. There is plenty of advise on setting up your subwoofer.
bsoko2 is online now  
post #42 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 04:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 2,924
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 809 Post(s)
Liked: 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed3120 View Post

No, I'm not using Dynamic Volume.

I didn't realize the input trim could be set on each source.

Owners manual, page 72 - "Source Level".
Quote:
I could possibly turn up the trim on my Tivo and leave it as is on my bluray player. Would that result in the Tivo being louder in overall volume than my bluray player when I switch between them, or would it just mean that my Tivo would get more compression in the bass frequencies?

Your Tivo will be louder than it is now, I can't say if it will be louder than your blu-ray player. I can tell you that with my input gain bumped on my DirecTivo, I listen to TV around -30 to -25db. I listen to blu-rays on my PS3 at around -15 to -5db.

AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
CC: Klipsch RC64ii
SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4
SUB: PSA XS15 x 4 (Soon to be replaced with dual T-18s!)
DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740
Alan P is online now  
post #43 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 08:59 PM
Member
 
Joe0Bloggs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Depending on the model of Audyssey, this shouldn't be a problem, but I would probably have felt like the OP if I hadn't EQ calibrated my sub--it had a 11dB peak at 33Hz at my seating position so for material that activated that node I would have gone WHOA and if I turned the sub down accordingly, I would have felt hardly anything for any other material. I manually EQ calibrated the sub at the first opportunity though and almost everything sounds just right. *shrug*

Maybe check to confirm that Audyssey is doing its job by playing some bass sine sweeps? Do note though that due to the Fletcher Munson curves you shouldn't hear the low bass anywhere near as loud as the midbass, but you're good if the volume tapers smoothly instead of pumping up and down at the listening position (indicating uncorrected nodes and nulls).
Joe0Bloggs is offline  
post #44 of 46 Old 04-05-2013, 05:56 PM
Senior Member
 
Tom C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed3120 View Post

........ I’m thinking that one of my problems is that I feel that some things have almost enough bass and other things do not. I’d rather have a more consistent bass level, .........

As fjames mentioned I think that your expectations could be part of your problem. I experienced that when I got my VTF-15H. I expected bass to be filling the room on most everything. I forgot that source material varies. Some source material is reference quality and some is crap. Everything else falls in between. Set it up the best you can and put on some good stuff to show what your system is capable of when good material is played. One place to get ideas of what to play is the The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts )

My 2¢ worth.
Tom C is offline  
post #45 of 46 Old 04-05-2013, 08:09 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,760
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 249 Post(s)
Liked: 781
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed3120 View Post

Yeah, I agree that the floor is messing me up here. I guess I was hoping for some “feeling” to reach my couch. Maybe I need to add one of those buttkicker things.

I bet that's what it is. Try putting that sub in your living room or another room upstairs and see what happens (hook it up to an ipod or something). I bet you'll find it has more of the bass you want when it's able to travel some through the floor. Now if it still doesn't have the bass you want, then you need more sub wink.gif

Buttkicker could certainly make the difference, too.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
HT: Energy RC-50, RC-LCR, Veritas VS Surrounds | Dual CHT SS 18.1s | Denon AVR-888 | modified Dayton SA1000 | Antimode 8033C
Desktop: CBM-170 SE | SVS SB-1000 | Audio-GD NFB-11 | HK 3390
Headphone & Portable HE-400 | K612 Pro | HP150 | DX50 | E12
cel4145 is online now  
post #46 of 46 Old 04-07-2013, 06:56 AM
Member
 
mikepos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 153
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
My experience with that sitting position (2/3 of room length) is that you get good clarity but less mid-bass... this is partly because you're in an area less affected by room modes, and mid bass is often exaggerated, skewing expectations. Try moving the seat back 6" then 12" etc. Even leaning forward and back might change bass. I found the best way to improve bass was near field sub placement.

The above is my experience when set up length wise. Also, I do suspect that the sub is being asked a lot of for that size room, as mentioned earlier, but to look for improvement I'd really try for near field placement with slight listening position experimentation.

Oppo BDP-95
Bryston 3B-ST 2ch on mains
Lexicon 512 5ch
PSB Stratus Gold mains
PSB C6i center
Rythmik FV15HP
Paradigm ADP-370 surrounds
cheap energy rear speakers
mikepos is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off