VTF-3 - Not Getting Enough Bass Out Of It - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I’ve got a HSU VTF-3 MK4. I’m sure it's a great sub, but I feel I'm not getting enough bass out of it, so I probably have something set wrong. I’m running maximum extension mode (one port plugged) with the Q set to 7. I ran Audyssey on it with the volume knob set to 9:00. Audyssey set my amp sub volume to – 4.5 db. Those settings gave me weak bass.

I had to turn the sub volume knob to about 10:00 or 10:30 and the amp sub volume to +3 before I was getting enough bass to make me slightly satisfied. It still wasn’t knocking my socks off.

I ran the 20hz test on the HSU sub CD. It made my doors rattle a little, and my head feel slightly weird due to the pressure…cool stuff to demo for friends, but when I would put on a movie like the Matrix, I still wasn’t completely impressed.

My room is a basement, with a concrete floor covered about 70% with a bunch of area rugs. The room is about 25x17’ with a 6.5’ ceiling. My sub is against the wall, 3 inches away, with the ports firing towards the wall. I bought a GRAMMA and set the sub on that. Due to logistics, I can’t put the sub against or next to the couch (the couch sits towards the middle of the room (about 2/3 of way, with the sub about 5 feet behind it). I did a sub crawl and found a particular spot on the wall that seemed to product better bass, so I moved it there. Still, it’s not knocking my socks off.

I definitely get a different feeling out of it depending on the source material. (I understand that source material obviously has a big impact, but I’m trying to find some settings that would be good all-round for all situations. I have a Denon AVR-1712. TV is watched through a TV connected via HDMI. Movies and games are through a PS3 connected with HDMI. Music is streamed through Samsung Smart TV app, through the optical cable to the amp.

- When I watch TV (through a Tivo connected via an optical cable), I feel like I barely ever hear any bass.
- When I play a racing video game, I get a good amount of constant bass.
- When I watch a movie, I get good bass sometimes, but I need to crank the overall volume on the amp.
- When I listen to music, the bass is there, but it’s not tight and there is no punch in the chest.

What could I be doing wrong?
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post #2 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 06:31 AM
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Not familiar with that sub, but room is fairly large. Sub placement is crucial.

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post #3 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 07:21 AM
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You might sit in the null area. I use to have the vtf2.3 and it had lot of output in my 2700 cu ft room. Your vtf3 is a better sub so try the sub crawl.
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post #4 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hakstone View Post

Not familiar with that sub, but room is fairly large. Sub placement is crucial.

Sorry if I didn't mention it was a Hsu. I've edited my original post. Here are my two options for the sub placement.

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post #5 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 07:51 AM
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Ok so your room is actually bigger than what you thought.... When dealing with sub and bass frequencies you need to take into consideration the volume of the whole open area to your sub. But that sub should be plenty for that room. You may just need to move the sub or listening position to get better sound.

As tvuong stated you might be sitting in a null.

Also try different variations of sub placement. just a move of 6 inches could make a big difference... Try corner loading the sub in one of the rear corners and rotate the sub so that the driver is facing a wall and the ports are facing a wall. This will help to reinforce the bass, but be sure to keep it away from the walls some so the driver and ports have room to breathe.

Shawn
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post #6 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 08:03 AM
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U should.try puttingg the sub in the corner where it looks like you have a drumset and see what that does for ya

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post #7 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

Ok so your room is actually bigger than what you thought.... When dealing with sub and bass frequencies you need to take into consideration the volume of the whole open area to your sub. But that sub should be plenty for that room. You may just need to move the sub or listening position to get better sound.

As tvuong stated you might be sitting in a null.

Also try different variations of sub placement. just a move of 6 inches could make a big difference... Try corner loading the sub in one of the rear corners and rotate the sub so that the driver is facing a wall and the ports are facing a wall. This will help to reinforce the bass, but be sure to keep it away from the walls some so the driver and ports have room to breathe.

I updated my pic in my previous post. "18 ft" on that one measurement was a typo and it should be 8 ft.

Right now, the ports face the wall, as opposed to the speaker. The problem is that, I need to keep the ports and the speaker out of the open due to my young kids. (I don't want them poking the speaker or tossing crackers into the ports. smile.gif Based on whether the sub is on the left or right side of the computer desk, determines the rotation of how I can place the sub, and whether the speaker or the ports face the wall.

So with nulls, even 6 inches makes a difference? What is the easiest way to remedy this? Should I sit in my main chair with an SPL meter and move the sub 6 inches at a time until I get the highest reading? I have a test tones CD with tones at various sub frequencies.
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post #8 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by newc33 View Post

U should.try puttingg the sub in the corner where it looks like you have a drumset and see what that does for ya

Would placing it in the corner dramatically increase the amount of sound that goes to the rest of the house? I mean, if the bass in the room where I sit improves, I could turn it down in relation obviously. I just wonder if putting it in the corner is going to increase the ratio of bass that travels through the house, versus stays in the room. It's probably not a dealbreaker for me, but I'll just like to understand how it is expected to react.
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post #9 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed3120 View Post

So with nulls, even 6 inches makes a difference? What is the easiest way to remedy this? Should I sit in my main chair with an SPL meter and move the sub 6 inches at a time until I get the highest reading? I have a test tones CD with tones at various sub frequencies.
yes. With the sub placed at your listening area, play some loud bass material and crawl/walk around your room with your meter to determine which spot give you the best bass/output. This spot is where you should place your sub if that possible.
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post #10 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

yes. With the sub placed at your listening area, play some loud bass material and crawl/walk around your room with your meter to determine which spot give you the best bass/output. This spot is where you should place your sub if that possible.

I originally placed the sub at Sub Option A. I wasn't happy with it. I then placed the sub in my listening position, and I crouched down in the Sub Option A and B positions. B definitely sounded louder, so I moved the sub there. I've been watching TV for about a week now in the new position, and I don't feel like anything has improved. I'm guessing that doing this by ear is not as effective as it would be if I bought an SPL meter.

I do have Audyssey, which is why I didn't think I would need an SPL meter, but in this case, Audyssey isn't helping me.
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post #11 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 08:39 AM
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^^
I would contact Dr. Hsu then. It might be defective.
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post #12 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed3120 View Post

Right now, the ports face the wall, as opposed to the speaker. The problem is that, I need to keep the ports and the speaker out of the open due to my young kids. (I don't want them poking the speaker or tossing crackers into the ports. smile.gif Based on whether the sub is on the left or right side of the computer desk, determines the rotation of how I can place the sub, and whether the speaker or the ports face the wall.

Kids and pets are the exact reason I went with Outlaw Audio over Hsu. I know the Hsu subs are a little better and offer more features than the Outlaws. But the Outlaws are basically the most kid/pet safe and friendly ported subs because of the down firing driver and ports.

Shawn
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post #13 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

Kids and pets are the exact reason I went with Outlaw Audio over Hsu. I know the Hsu subs are a little better and offer more features than the Outlaws. But the Outlaws are basically the most kid/pet safe and friendly ported subs because of the down firing driver and ports.

That's a good point, but there's not going back for me now. smile.gif

Based on how I sit in a null, would moving the sub to the lower left corner of the diagram likely be an improvement? I've read that corner placement can increase volume, but emphasize certain frequencies unevenly. I wonder if Audyssey would do a good enough job correcting that out.
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post #14 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 10:33 AM
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If you are truly sitting in a null then you need to move you listening position. I bet if you could move your couch back about a foot and make it centered under the heating vent it would help alot. It looks like you are sitting just behind the mid point in the room and the mid point in the room is always a null. You should be sitting about 1/3 from the front or 1/3 from the back.

Example: I have dual Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus subs. At my old house my room was 23' X 11' X 7.5' and sealed and I sat in a null. I had one sub corner loaded up front and 1 sub next to my couch as an end table. I moved to a new house where the room is 20.5' X 15' X 8' and a 4' opening floor to ceiling to the rest of the house. I now have both subs up front at about the 1/3 marks from each side wall and I am no longer sitting in a null. My room is bigger and my listening position is farther away BUT when I calibrated my subs I had to turn the gain down from where it was in my old house. My bass is amazing now in the new house and actually using less amp power.

Shawn
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post #15 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed3120 View Post

Would placing it in the corner dramatically increase the amount of sound that goes to the rest of the house? I mean, if the bass in the room where I sit improves, I could turn it down in relation obviously. I just wonder if putting it in the corner is going to increase the ratio of bass that travels through the house, versus stays in the room. It's probably not a dealbreaker for me, but I'll just like to understand how it is expected to react.

You'll pretty much just have to try it.
The only reasoned I suggested that is because it would be my first guess as to where to place a sub if that was my house
I'm far from an expert though and regaurdless that's just my guess at a good spot. The sub crawl will give u more garenteed results than my guesstemations can

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post #16 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 11:34 AM
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I'm very surprised that there has been little mention of the fact that you are trying to pressurize a space of at least 3500 cu. ft. and up to 4000 cu. ft. (depending on what doors are opened or closed) with a single 12" sub.

IMO, for a room that size, you're gonna need at least dual 15"s to get any sort of satisfaction.

That being said, you may or may not be sitting in a null - to find out, put on some bass heavy music and walk around the room. Does the bass get better in some areas and worse in others? Particularly, is it better in other areas than at your main listening position?
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post #17 of 46 Old 04-03-2013, 02:30 PM
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I'm very surprised that there has been little mention of the fact that you are trying to pressurize a space of at least 3500 cu. ft. and up to 4000 cu. ft. (depending on what doors are opened or closed) with a single 12" sub.

IMO, for a room that size, you're gonna need at least dual 15"s to get any sort of satisfaction.

That being said, you may or may not be sitting in a null - to find out, put on some bass heavy music and walk around the room. Does the bass get better in some areas and worse in others? Particularly, is it better in other areas than at your main listening position?

This! Im sure if the op would of contacted hsu, they would of recomended 2 of the 12's or atleast one uls15". atleast they did with my room and its slightly smaller than the op. making bass is all about moving air, just like a engine trying to make power. there is no replacement for displacement.
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post #18 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

I'm very surprised that there has been little mention of the fact that you are trying to pressurize a space of at least 3500 cu. ft. and up to 4000 cu. ft. (depending on what doors are opened or closed) with a single 12" sub.

IMO, for a room that size, you're gonna need at least dual 15"s to get any sort of satisfaction.

That being said, you may or may not be sitting in a null - to find out, put on some bass heavy music and walk around the room. Does the bass get better in some areas and worse in others? Particularly, is it better in other areas than at your main listening position?

His ceilings are only at 6.5'. So 17 X 2 0 X 6.5 = 2210 cubic feet OR 17 X 28 X 6.5 = 3094 cubic feet.

My room is about 2500 cubic feet but it has a 4' opening floor to ceiling to the rest of the house. I have 2 Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus's and they are more than enough for that room. I can shut either one of my subs off and its still good in that room. So if 1 Plus can fill my room I think 1 VTF3.4 can fill the OP's room considering his sub is better than mine and it appears that his room is sealed mine is not.

Shawn
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post #19 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

His ceilings are only at 6.5'. So 17 X 2 0 X 6.5 = 2210 cubic feet OR 17 X 28 X 6.5 = 3094 cubic feet.

My room is about 2500 cubic feet but it has a 4' opening floor to ceiling to the rest of the house. I have 2 Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus's and they are more than enough for that room. I can shut either one of my subs off and its still good in that room. So if 1 Plus can fill my room I think 1 VTF3.4 can fill the OP's room considering his sub is better than mine and it appears that his room is sealed mine is not.


its recomended that one 15" is good for up to 3000^3 acording to rythmik...and thats with there f15hp. the op does not have enough sub plain and simple. your version of whats good may differe than others, that is why most will recomend based off of standard measurements.
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post #20 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 05:41 AM
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^^^ According to Hsu the VTF3.4 is good for rooms up to 5000 cubic feet. I'm not trying to argue here cuz I don't know what the actual answer is to the OPs situation. I'm just trying to give him different insight or things to think about.

Shawn
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post #21 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 06:11 AM
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So... did the OP ever turn his sub past 10:30? How about 5 o'clock tongue.gif
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post #22 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

^^^ According to Hsu the VTF3.4 is good for rooms up to 5000 cubic feet. I'm not trying to argue here cuz I don't know what the actual answer is to the OPs situation. I'm just trying to give him different insight or things to think about.

no argument...just discussion. I am learning here as well. I was basing my info after days of emailing internet direct companies.
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post #23 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

^^^ According to Hsu the VTF3.4 is good for rooms up to 5000 cubic feet. I'm not trying to argue here cuz I don't know what the actual answer is to the OPs situation. I'm just trying to give him different insight or things to think about.

Yeah, when I purchased the VTF-3, it was rated for more volume than my room. 5000 cu ft sounds about right.
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post #24 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Joe0Bloggs View Post

So... did the OP ever turn his sub past 10:30? How about 5 o'clock tongue.gif
smile.gif

I could turn it up...I just feel like something is wrong in my config. Everyone else talks about leaving theirs at 9:00 or less, so I figured I'm missing something.
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post #25 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 07:51 AM
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smile.gif

I could turn it up...I just feel like something is wrong in my config. Everyone else talks about leaving theirs at 9:00 or less, so I figured I'm missing something.

dont take what everyone else say as a 100% answer. turn the gain up as needed...you got a big room to fill. if your not getting distortion and listening at reference levels its ok to run it hot. not every room setup is the same, use others advice as a guideline.
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post #26 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 07:54 AM
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9:00 may be the "starting point", or it may be for sub(s) in a smaller room (or for one or more very potent subs in a larger room).

Set your sub's gain to "noon", run one cycle of Audyssey (all speakers + the sub for the first seating position) and then "Calculate". Your speakers should be set to around 0dB, and your sub should ideally be within a few dB (usually a few dB below) the average level of the speakers.
- If it's set too low, lower the gain on the sub and re-run one cycle of Audyssey.
- If it's set too high, raise the gain on the sub and re-run one cycle of Audyssey.

Once you get the sub to within a few dB of the speakers, run the full set of cycles of Audyssey (for all seating positions) and "Calculate". Then tweak to taste (some folks run their sub a couple or three dB hot in the speaker set-up menu).
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post #27 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ed3120 View Post

Yeah, when I purchased the VTF-3, it was rated for more volume than my room. 5000 cu ft sounds about right.

I understand that but when I contacted hsu they said use 2 of the 12's or there uls15. just passing along my info from hours of research. like i said before try adjusting the sub acording to what your ears tell ya not the internet. I found the 9:00 gain posistion to be weak my 505's...mostly on older music and some movies.

^the post above is a good reference!!
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post #28 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 08:00 AM
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FWIW: I had a 325W, BASH-powered PB-12NSD in my ~3,375 cu.ft. basement (laminate over concrete) HT space. When I was considering upgrading, Rythmik recommended a single F15 or dual F12s at a minimum.

In a room the size of the OP's, and given the expectation of "punch in the chest" bass, a single 12" sub won't cut it. Dual 12"-ers would be a minimum, IMO.
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post #29 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

9:00 may be the "starting point", or it may be for sub(s) in a smaller room (or for one or more very potent subs in a larger room).

Set your sub's gain to "noon", run one cycle of Audyssey (all speakers + the sub for the first seating position) and then "Calculate". Your speakers should be set to around 0dB, and your sub should ideally be within a few dB (usually a few dB below) the average level of the speakers.
- If it's set too low, lower the gain on the sub and re-run one cycle of Audyssey.
- If it's set too high, raise the gain on the sub and re-run one cycle of Audyssey.

Once you get the sub to within a few dB of the speakers, run the full set of cycles of Audyssey (for all seating positions) and "Calculate". Then tweak to taste (some folks run their sub a couple or three dB hot in the speaker set-up menu).

When I run Audyssey with the Sub gain at 9:00, Audyssey sets my sub to around -4.5dB. Doesn't that mean if I turn the sub gain up any higher, it's going to try to lower it further (i.e. set it closer to the -12db limit)? I usually turn the sub gain up a little after running Audyssey.
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post #30 of 46 Old 04-04-2013, 08:19 AM
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When I run Audyssey with the Sub gain at 9:00, Audyssey sets my sub to around -4.5dB. Doesn't that mean if I turn the sub gain up any higher, it's going to try to lower it further ... ?
Yup. But -4.5dB for your sub (assuming your speakers are at around 0dB) seems reasonable, so I wouldn't play with the gain on the sub. Bumping the level in the AVR by 2-3dB will help a bit. But if you're still not getting the kind of bass you think you should be getting, then it's back to what others have already said:
- you're sitting in a null; and/or
- you simply don't have enough sub to meet your expectations in your HT space.
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