any point in upgrading subs? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 122 Old 04-17-2013, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Hmm... It just started doing it today, which is incidentally when I've tried running the two subs at high volume, but as there powered subs you must be right. It's for sure overheating though, as it turns itself off with a blinking red light telling me it's put itself into protection mode from heat... We'll see what Denon has to say.. SIGH.

Check your speaker wires and make sure none of them have a loose strand that might be in contact with the unit. It's possible that while working on the subs, a speaker wire worked loose.

If you've been running the AVR hard, the head may be normal.
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post #92 of 122 Old 04-17-2013, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Hmm... It just started doing it today, which is incidentally when I've tried running the two subs at high volume, but as there powered subs you must be right. It's for sure overheating though, as it turns itself off with a blinking red light telling me it's put itself into protection mode from heat... We'll see what Denon has to say.. SIGH.

Edit: They said my speakers are too powerful for my receiver " trying to draw to much power" and making the unit turn off.

Looking at your profile, the AVR should have no problem driving those speakers up to some pretty insane listening levels.
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post #93 of 122 Old 04-17-2013, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking at your profile, the AVR should have no problem driving those speakers up to some pretty insane listening levels.

Thanks for the tip, I've got to run to work but will do this ( check all the speaker wire ) as soon as I get home. I sure hope that's the case, I can't afford another 900 dollars right now frown.gif
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post #94 of 122 Old 04-17-2013, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Thanks for the tip, I've got to run to work but will do this ( check all the speaker wire ) as soon as I get home. I sure hope that's the case, I can't afford another 900 dollars right now frown.gif

Hopefully that turns out to be the case. I've learned from personal experience - it's amazing how often a strand can become loose when working around the speaker connections.
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post #95 of 122 Old 04-17-2013, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Come to think of it, when re running auddessy it kept telling me my right rear surround was out of phase. I double checked and re wired it but it still said out of phase. Perhaps that has something to do with it. Just for the record it isn't, but maybe that's a hint. I find it hard to believe my speakers, rated from 20 to 200 watts, short out everyones receivers unless they had a high end one, but that's what the people at denon are telling me. I'm sure one with more power and extra pre outs for bi wiring would be beneficial, but no way the 1913 just can't handle the psb speakers, right?
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post #96 of 122 Old 04-17-2013, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Come to think of it, when re running auddessy it kept telling me my right rear surround was out of phase. I double checked and re wired it but it still said out of phase. Perhaps that has something to do with it. Just for the record it isn't, but maybe that's a hint. I find it hard to believe my speakers, rated from 20 to 200 watts, short out everyones receivers unless they had a high end one, but that's what the people at denon are telling me. I'm sure one with more power and extra pre outs for bi wiring would be beneficial, but no way the 1913 just can't handle the psb speakers, right?

I wouldn't be too concerned about the phase reporting. Audyssey is known to report it incorrectly but it doesn't seem to cause any downstream issues.

The Denon should be able to handle your speakers in normal listening conditions. If you have a big room and like to listen at very high levels, it could become an issue, but you'll definitely notice audible artifacts as you approach it's limits.

Another consideration is airflow - if you don't have good ventilation, adding a low speed PC fan will help dissipate the heat.
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post #97 of 122 Old 04-17-2013, 03:35 PM
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You never did answer my question - is the AVR in a cabinet and can it breathe??
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post #98 of 122 Old 04-17-2013, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
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You never did answer my question - is the AVR in a cabinet and can it breathe??

Sorry Alan, No it's out in the open, it's got a part of a plasma tv about 6 inches above it, but the rest of is open to the air, it's sitting on top of a night stand, like so:


I spent about an hour when I got home tonight at 11 re - stripping and re -wiring all of my speaker cables into the back of my AVR. I did notice, re that surround rear that was out of phase, that upon testing the speakers after plugging them back in that the speaker in question sounded like crap, so I looked on the back, and found some speaker wire that had detached that was spanning the two connections, positive and negative. I cleared it out and plugged it back in, and indeed the speaker sounds normal. So that obviously solves the phase error, now whether or not that could cause over heating I don't know, as it was on the speaker end not the Receiver end. I also made sure the sub cables were tight and didn't have any splits in them, they looked good. Unfortunately it's 12 30 am and can't drive them to hard right now, but will give them a go in the morning. I really wasn't pushing them TOO hard when it kept over heating earlier, as even though it was loud I live in an apartment and don't need to turn the volume up too much to have it be loud. It really will be lousy if the 1913 can't drive the PSB's at that volume! ... I do have my eye on a refurbished 3313ci that would set me back 850 including tax, and the upshot of that would be it has the dual sub outputs, is 125 watts per channel, has a phono out ( not that I really use my record player ever ), but especially good is it has pre outs, as I understand I could use these to add an amp to bi wire my front towers, which the Denon guy said would be a huge bonus for me. Then again, that would just about make my Credit Card scream for breathing room - as in come close to max, so If I could leave it for a bit that would be great.
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post #99 of 122 Old 04-18-2013, 02:09 AM
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You've found the culprit, a short is a short on either end, for a short on the speaker end it meant the electricity had to travel through the span of the speaker wire from the - to the +, which might have saved your amp from blowing outright.
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

... now whether or not that could cause over heating I don't know,...

If you have any experience with incandescent light bulbs or have crossed polarity with automobile jumper cables, you'll know if this could cause an over heating problem or not. What you had was a direct short.

FYI, our Marantz, SR5007, runs hot and produces about 89w/channel, all channels driven but due to the efficiency of the speakers, is capable of driving the speakers to reference levels or what one might consider to be: "LOUD!"

-
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post #101 of 122 Old 04-18-2013, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe0Bloggs View Post

You've found the culprit, a short is a short on either end, for a short on the speaker end it meant the electricity had to travel through the span of the speaker wire from the - to the +, which might have saved your amp from blowing outright.

Yup. I expect next we hear from Sean, his problem will be fixed. wink.gif
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post #102 of 122 Old 04-18-2013, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Joe0Bloggs View Post

You've found the culprit, a short is a short on either end, for a short on the speaker end it meant the electricity had to travel through the span of the speaker wire from the - to the +, which might have saved your amp from blowing outright.

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Yup. I expect next we hear from Sean, his problem will be fixed. wink.gif

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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If you have any experience with incandescent light bulbs or have crossed polarity with automobile jumper cables, you'll know if this could cause an over heating problem or not. What you had was a direct short.

FYI, our Marantz, SR5007, runs hot and produces about 89w/channel, all channels driver but due to the efficiency of the speakers, is capable of driving the speakers to reference levels or what one might consider to be: "LOUD!"


Well it certainly SEEMS like that was the problem gentlemen, I've run the Denon pretty loud for 2 1 hour listening sessions, and haven't been able to get it to shut itself off again, so thank you!, success!... That being said it DOES still get very hot pretty quickly at those volumes, perhaps I've never noticed before. I've done some further reading into the model, 1913, and it seems some people have reported it getting quite hot on them as well. I suppose this is fine as long as it doesn't turn itself off / reduce the life of the components. I'll look into getting some sort of cooling fan for it if I decide to keep it. I've almost talked myself into stepping up to the 3313ci as we speak though, and did some money transfering from my bank account to my credit card to make room in case I decide to do it. Besides being able to use Auddessey XT, and the dual sub outputs, do you think the increase in power and / or processing will make a noticeable difference right off the bat? Obviously down the line I'll want to add an amp so I can bi - wire the PSB's, but can't do that straight away anyways since I've just blown my load on the 3313ci. At 850 including tax it really does seem like a great deal, and assuming I can get 350 for the 1913 it will be 500 dollars for the upgrade. What do you think? Worth doing or should I wait until I can afford the extra amp as well?

P.S. The Subs sound VERY good at the moment, despite them being mismatched. The gain matching seemed to do the trick, and at the moment I don't feel the need to buy a matching one because of it ( more savings through which to justify buying the 3313ci ? smile.gif )
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post #103 of 122 Old 04-18-2013, 02:54 PM
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The dual sub outputs on the 3313 are just an internal y-splitter, so you won't be gaining anything there.

I think you would hear a significant difference with XT32....$500 worth? Only you can make that call. biggrin.gif
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post #104 of 122 Old 04-18-2013, 03:41 PM
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The dual sub outputs on the 3313 are just an internal y-splitter, so you won't be gaining anything there.

I think you would hear a significant difference with XT32....$500 worth? Only you can make that call. biggrin.gif

Does the 3312 have XT32? Thought it was XT.
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post #105 of 122 Old 04-18-2013, 03:44 PM
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Does the 3312 have XT32? Thought it was XT.
According to their product pages, both the AVR-3312 and the AVR-3313 have MultEQ XT (not XT32).
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post #106 of 122 Old 04-18-2013, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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The dual sub outputs on the 3313 are just an internal y-splitter, so you won't be gaining anything there.

I think you would hear a significant difference with XT32....$500 worth? Only you can make that call. biggrin.gif

Hmm.. Well maybe it's best to wait until I can afford both the receiver AND extra amp to bi wire my front towers. I'm still tempted, but would be a shame to stretch myself thin and not hear any difference whatsoever in the sound. I could always go ahead and switch my rear surrounds out to match the rest of the speakers - but that will be almost the same price as the new receiver. B5's to match my side surrounds, 400 + tax ( to get rid of my rear fluance bi polars peakers ) OR spend 500 on the 3313ci. Tough choice indeed. I Doesn't seem to be TOO much of a difference between multi Eq and my current version of Auddessy, two more measurement positions, and 16x filter resolution for the satellites as opposed to two. The big bonus would be the extra power, the calibration of the second sub ( although it's just a y splitter ) and to a much smaller extent the phono output, but perhaps I'm better off to wait. I don't think the multiEQ is a make or break point in any case.
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post #107 of 122 Old 04-18-2013, 09:05 PM
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So can somebody tell me in plain English what the difference would be between +-3dB and -6dB, if you raise the test output level by 3dB for the latter? rolleyes.gif

Since we EQ everything anyway I would think that max output SPL at a given Hz would be more important than how high or low the default output SPL is relative to the midbass? rolleyes.gif

To the question regarding matching surrounds or better sub: I've invested about $300 on my sub (Mirage Omni-S10) relative to ~$50 for my mains and "AVR" put together (practically white van material) in my 2.1 system and I think they are about perfectly matched in terms of performance after I tune the mains with EQ rolleyes.gif
the +/-3db means thats how much the subs output will vary from the 24-100hz range... so it will have effective output at 24hz. just because a sub is rated down to 24 hz does not mean in will have any output at that frequency. if you see a sub thats rated down to 24hz but there is no -/+ db rating next to it then steer clear because most likely it will roll off 10db and have very little output down at that frequency range.
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post #108 of 122 Old 04-18-2013, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Hmm.. Well maybe it's best to wait until I can afford both the receiver AND extra amp to bi wire my front towers. I'm still tempted, but would be a shame to stretch myself thin and not hear any difference whatsoever in the sound. I could always go ahead and switch my rear surrounds out to match the rest of the speakers - but that will be almost the same price as the new receiver. B5's to match my side surrounds, 400 + tax ( to get rid of my rear fluance bi polars peakers ) OR spend 500 on the 3313ci. Tough choice indeed. I Doesn't seem to be TOO much of a difference between multi Eq and my current version of Auddessy, two more measurement positions, and 16x filter resolution for the satellites as opposed to two. The big bonus would be the extra power, the calibration of the second sub ( although it's just a y splitter ) and to a much smaller extent the phono output, but perhaps I'm better off to wait. I don't think the multiEQ is a make or break point in any case.

biamping off of a reciever offers very little gain...google it!
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post #109 of 122 Old 04-18-2013, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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biamping off of a reciever offers very little gain...google it!

I had heard that it was a little gimmicky, is there another way to bi amp? or is it just a big waste of time? The Denon guy sounded pretty sure that it would make a huge difference, and I'd be " wasting my speakers capabilities " if I didn't. That being said he might just have been trying to sell me a 3313ci unit...
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post #110 of 122 Old 04-18-2013, 09:33 PM
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Biamping is only beneficial if you also use digital crossovers to lowpass the signal going into the woofer and highpass the signal going into the tweeter, and preferably bypass the speaker's internal crossovers too.
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post #111 of 122 Old 04-18-2013, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Biamping is only beneficial if you also use digital crossovers to lowpass the signal going into the woofer and highpass the signal going into the tweeter, and preferably bypass the speaker's internal crossovers too.

That sounds more complicated then I would have thought. PSB speakers are pretty stringently designed with respect to internal crossovers, I'm not sure I'd want to bypass them. That being said, they're shipped with the option to do so, so there must be SOME benefit to doing so.
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post #112 of 122 Old 04-18-2013, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

I had heard that it was a little gimmicky, is there another way to bi amp? or is it just a big waste of time? The Denon guy sounded pretty sure that it would make a huge difference, and I'd be " wasting my speakers capabilities " if I didn't. That being said he might just have been trying to sell me a 3313ci unit...

I have my Polk rti-a7's biamped off of my yamaha 773 and imo they do sound slightly better. however its not a huge difference and I would not be suprised if its all in my head lol. However I have swtiched back and fourth and I do believe there is a slight difference.
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...is there another way to bi amp? or is it just a big waste of time?

Yes, add another Amp. In our case, I added a tube amplifier to offset the harshness of the Klipsch horns with violins. As to it being a waste of time, that's a "depends" type of answer.
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post #114 of 122 Old 04-18-2013, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I have my Polk rti-a7's biamped off of my yamaha 773 and imo they do sound slightly better. however its not a huge difference and I would not be suprised if its all in my head lol. However I have swtiched back and fourth and I do believe there is a slight difference.

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Yes, add another Amp. In our case, I added a tube amplifier to offset the harshness of the Klipsch horns with violins. As to it being a waste of time, that's a "depends" type of answer.

Hmm... Well this sounds more like tweaking and fiddling then a necessity, more a labor of love. I think it's something I'll look into, but won't rush out to buy a new receiver with " pre - outs " just to accomplish the task, and then try to decide after spending an additional 1000 dollars if the improvement is in my head or not lol smile.gif

I think I've made up my mind, I'll replace the rear surrounds instead so all 7 of my speakers are the PSB image series instead of just 5, then start saving a bit each month until next Christmas, and try to pick up a 9.2 receiver instead.

At which point I'll no doubt be counting on your excellent collective advice again!
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post #115 of 122 Old 04-18-2013, 10:45 PM
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That sounds more complicated then I would have thought. PSB speakers are pretty stringently designed with respect to internal crossovers, I'm not sure I'd want to bypass them. That being said, they're shipped with the option to do so, so there must be SOME benefit to doing so.

I doubt that the biamping option on those speakers actually bypasses the internal crossover, because "biamping" in the audiophool world usually just involves sending the same signal to the two inputs, and if this were done while the internal crossovers were bypassed the tweeters would fry instantly. There used to be a good FAQ on DIY biamping here
http://web.archive.org/web/20120205191939/http://www.duffroomcorrection.com/wiki/Active_systems
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It sounds like you've already decided to save for a better receiver, but it does bare mentioning-- there is definitely a difference between MultiEQ and XT. My last receiver upgrade took me from one to the other and my Paradigms clearly sounded better. The XT32 variant is by all accounts an even bigger leap, but I wouldn't poo-poo the benefits of XT.
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post #117 of 122 Old 04-19-2013, 12:36 AM - Thread Starter
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It sounds like you've already decided to save for a better receiver, but it does bare mentioning-- there is definitely a difference between MultiEQ and XT. My last receiver upgrade took me from one to the other and my Paradigms clearly sounded better. The XT32 variant is by all accounts an even bigger leap, but I wouldn't poo-poo the benefits of XT.

Well I appreciate the input. I think the final question posed earlier is the deciding factor. Undoubtedly the XT would improve my sound, but would it be worth 500 dollars to do so? If I save for a 4311 or 4312, it will undoubtedly have XT, and most likely the XT32 EQ, and I'd get 9.2 channels to boot. This is by no means the instant gratification I would love to have - but it might be the smarter option in my case. I love paradigms by the way, and had a set about 10 years ago ... They were run through a receiver with NO auddessey, I just had to do things by eye and ear ( didn't even have a spl meter, nor had i heard of one back then wink.gif ).. and they still sounded superb.
The bi amping and double sub outputs were a BIG sell for me, but as mentioned before, if the double sub output is just an internal Y splitter, and the worthiness of bi wiring is debatable, and the extra 35 watts won't make my 1913 run any less hot ( the opposite of what the Denon tech told me ) then I think I'll finish my set of speakers an purchase the B5's for the rears as well. If by next Christmas I've changed my mind, the option is still there for the 3313ci, and probably at a few dollars less.
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post #118 of 122 Old 04-19-2013, 06:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

I think it's something I'll look into, but won't rush out to buy a new receiver with " pre - outs " just to accomplish the task, and then try to decide after spending an additional 1000 dollars if the improvement is in my head or not lol smile.gif

Word. Don't be quick to discount a full set of pre-outs. What one can hear, is the life being sucked out of their sound system when all channels are firing during a particularly aggressive passage in a movie sound track. An outboard Amp goes a long way in filling in the deficiencies of a "SMALL" AVR based sound amplification system; not enough capacitance. We have a full set of pre-outs and for the above reason, the next add will be an Emotiva, XPA-5, so as to offset this sonic phenomenon.

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post #119 of 122 Old 04-19-2013, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

Does the 3312 have XT32? Thought it was XT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

According to their product pages, both the AVR-3312 and the AVR-3313 have MultEQ XT (not XT32).

My mistake, I really meant XT - not sure why I tacked the 32 on there. rolleyes.gif
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AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
CC: Klipsch RC64ii
SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4
SUB: PSA XS15 x 4 (Soon to be replaced with dual T-18s!)
DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740
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post #120 of 122 Old 04-19-2013, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

The bi amping and double sub outputs were a BIG sell for me, but as mentioned before, if the double sub output is just an internal Y splitter, and the worthiness of bi wiring is debatable, and the extra 35 watts won't make my 1913 run any less hot ( the opposite of what the Denon tech told me )

Yup - not all, but most "techs" have no clue what they're talking about.

AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
CC: Klipsch RC64ii
SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4
SUB: PSA XS15 x 4 (Soon to be replaced with dual T-18s!)
DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740
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