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post #1 of 122 Old 04-05-2013, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey there, I've been doing a lot of research on subs lately, and am wondering if there's going to be Amy discernable difference in a new sub over what I've got now. I picked up a set if psb age speakers, bit still have an old denon daw 391 sub. At first my reasoning was that I'd get better depth and clarity from a new one, but as the denon will play ( according to specs ) down to 20hz. I've got a 1500 square foot room in an apartment with fairly thick concrete walls, AMD have never had a noise complaint. The denon only cranks out 100 watts, but it does a reasonable job. When I told the psb guy what my sub was he told me I might as well turn it off its so crappy,. But a 20hz low seems to be highly coveted. I was thinking that a new sub would have a crossover setting on it, but as my denon 1913 sets crossovers on the other 7 speakers its my understanding is bypass the sub setting anyways. So basically, would I notice a difference with a better one given my current setup? Or am I just throwing money away.

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post #2 of 122 Old 04-05-2013, 06:01 PM
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if your happy keep it...however there is lots of room for improvement.
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post #3 of 122 Old 04-05-2013, 06:13 PM
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... the denon will play ( according to specs ) down to 20hz. ... The denon only cranks out 100 watts, but it does a reasonable job. ... So basically, would I notice a difference with a better one given my current setup? Or am I just throwing money away.
According to the product page and the owner's manual for that 8" subwoofer:
- the amp is rated to 100 "mystery" watts (RMS? peak?); and
- extension is 20Hz @ -? (-6? -10? -20?) dB.

Even if the amp's rating is RMS, there's no way that sub is playing down to 20Hz @ -3dB. Maybe 35Hz or 40Hz @ -3dB, if you're lucky.

Short answer: You would notice a HUGE difference with a better sub. Bang for buck, consider the Klipsch RW-12d (12" driver, 350W RMS, 24Hz @ -3dB), usually around $300 when on sale at Newegg.com. Lots more output and significantly deeper extension.
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post #4 of 122 Old 04-05-2013, 06:16 PM
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An 8" ported sub will not hit 20hz with authority... not even close. At best, you should consider your subwoofer a mid-bass module as I would speculate it would have very little output below 35-40hz.

In short: Even upgrading to the ~$300 Klipsch RW-12d would be a huge step up from what you have now. Of course, increasing your budget also does wonders for stepping up in terms of performance wink.gif

Edit: Beaten by eljaycanuk! ;p
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post #5 of 122 Old 04-05-2013, 06:19 PM
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Edit: Beaten by eljaycanuk! ;p
Woo-hoo!! biggrin.gif
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post #6 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, Fair enough, thanks gents!

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post #7 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 09:30 AM
 
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Not trying to split hairs. Just saying. The RW-12d is spec'd at +/- 3dB, not - 3dB.

FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 24-120Hz +/-3dB

In an anechoic chamber or 2m ground test, peak-to-trough, would be -6dB. And then there's the whole synergistic thing going when one compares an in room measurement graph of a subwoofer's output, all speakers removed from the system vs output with all speakers engaged.
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post #8 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 09:44 AM
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Not trying to split hairs. Just saying. The RW-12d is spec'd at +/- 3dB, not - 3dB.

FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 24-120Hz +/-3dB
That's right, it's spec'd at +/-3dB (variance from a given test output level), not 0/-6dB (variance from an output peak).

So, within the range of 24-120Hz, the variance from the given test output level is no more than +3dB or -3dB.

And when output rolls off at either end of that range - at 24Hz and at 120Hz - it is down by 3dB from the given test output level (not from any output peak within that range). In other words, 24Hz @ -3dB, and 120Hz @ -3dB.
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post #9 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 09:54 AM
 
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Which creates a 6dB range (+/-3dB) or channel in an anechoic condition; no reflections, reinforcements or nullification. Or if one wishes, in a perfect world.
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post #10 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 09:56 AM
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Which creates a 6dB range or channel.
Frequency-limiting potentiometer. Got it.
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post #11 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 10:04 AM
 
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A frequency limiting potentiometer has nothing to do with +/-3db vs -3dB when company posted specifications are +/-3dB, not -3dB and commentary regarding potentiometers have nothing to do with real world application vs measurements obtained in an anechoic chamber where real world conditions do not exist.

-
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post #12 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

A frequency limiting potentiometer has nothing to do with +/-3db vs -3dB.
It has everything to do with you making stuff up as you go along.

+/-3dB implies variance from a test level of output within a given range of frequencies.

Any peaks would be at +3dB relative to that test level of output. The lower and upper ends of the range would be at -3dB relative to that test level of output.

At the test level of output used by Klipsch, the RW-12d plays "flat" from 24Hz to 120Hz. At 24Hz (and at 120Hz), the RW-12d is down by 3dB - IOW, it is at -3dB - relative to that test level of output.
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post #13 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 10:12 AM
 
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Nobody is making anything up as they go along except my detractors.

Quote:
24Hz is at -3dB relative to that test level of output.

The specs posted by Klipsch are exactly what was quoted forward; +/-3dB, not -3dB and according to discussions I've had with Klipsch customer service, those specs are obtained in an anechoic chamber as they do not use ground plane measurements.
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post #14 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 10:14 AM
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Like I said, frequency-limiting potentiometer. rolleyes.gif
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post #15 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

It has everything to do with you making stuff up as you go along.

+/-3dB implies variance from a test level of output within a given range of frequencies.

Any peaks would be at +3dB relative to that test level of output. The lower and upper ends of the range would be at -3dB relative to that test level of output.

At the test level of output used by Klipsch, the RW-12d plays "flat" from 24Hz to 120Hz. At 24Hz (and at 120Hz), the RW-12d is down by 3dB - IOW, it is at -3dB - relative to that test level of output.

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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Nobody is making anything up as they go along except my detractors.
The specs posted by Klipsch are exactly what was quoted forward; +/-3dB, not -3dB and according to discussions I've had with Klipsch customer service, those specs are obtained in an anechoic chamber as they do not use ground plane measurements.

So it's a good one in other words. Unfortunately there isn't one available on the Canadian amazon website, and shipping one from the states would be a B**CH.. I'm leaning pretty heavily towards this one at the moment, given it's sale and reviews: http://www.amazon.ca/BIC-V1020-Down-Firing-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B0000Y2WY8/ref=sr_1_67?ie=UTF8&qid=1365272549&sr=8-67&keywords=bic+america

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post #16 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 11:40 AM
 
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Regarding availability of consumer goods, you guys in Canada are so getting ripped. I've no idea why this needs to be so.

As to the RW-12d, yes, it's considered to be the Top Dog of it's price point. It's nearest peer is a BIC, PL200. Is that something one can easily locate in Canada?

As to encouraging one to purchase a BIC, Venturi, V1020, in all seriousness, I would encourage them to try and find better. Yes, the output makes a difference. If cost is a limiting factor, then I would encourage something that's used with some sort of a warranty regarding it not being DOA. Unfortunately, one takes their chances with used.

A suggestion, checkout comments in the budget subwoofer threads and see if there's anything mentioned, available in Canada, which peaks your attention.

As to your thread's title, very much so it makes a difference. In the case of subwoofers, bigger is better and the more subwoofers one has in their system, the merrier. My recommendation is buy one 12" subwoofer with your mind's eye on adding a second and/or third one down the road as you're able. The difference is wonderful.

Once you have a system that reproduces wonderful, you'll understand. smile.gif

-
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post #17 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 11:41 AM
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Yes, it's a good one and a tremendous value at ~$300. Living in Canada does have its disadvantages. FWIW, if you can save up for an SVS PB-1000 - available through SonicBoomAudio, SVS' Canadian distributor, for $499 + shipping + taxes - that would be a very solid option.
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post #18 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Regarding availability of consumer goods, you guys in Canada are so getting ripped. I've no idea why this needs to be so.

As to the RW-12d, yes, it's considered to be the Top Dog of it's price point. It's nearest peer is a BIC, PL200. Is that something one can easily locate in Canada?

No I've looked for that one actually. The only place to get it is shipped from parts express in the states, to my knowledge, I've scoured kijiji, craigslist and Canuck audio mart, to no avail. I suspect that once people have them they hold on to it. I really sucks how amazon.com won't ship to Canada for some stupid reason, you HAVE to use amazon.ca - which doesn't have nearly as much stuff, and if they have it, it costs twice as much. SIGH. At least we have some good speaker manufacturers, and save that way. My PSB's are cheaper and easier to come by here then in the states - but my understanding that there sub at that price point is just " average ". http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/subwoofers/SubSeries-125-Subwoofer

I'll sleep on it, and if there's still one of the BIC's available tomorrow I'll probably pick it up. It sneaks in just under 300 with shipping so I think it's a pretty decent deal.

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post #19 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Regarding availability of consumer goods, you guys in Canada are so getting ripped. I've no idea why this needs to be so.

As to the RW-12d, yes, it's considered to be the Top Dog of it's price point. It's nearest peer is a BIC, PL200. Is that something one can easily locate in Canada?

No I've looked for that one actually. The only place to get it is shipped from parts express in the states, to my knowledge, I've scoured kijiji, craigslist and Canuck audio mart, to no avail. I suspect that once people have them they hold on to it. I really sucks how amazon.com won't ship to Canada for some stupid reason, you HAVE to use amazon.ca - which doesn't have nearly as much stuff, and if they have it, it costs twice as much. SIGH. At least we have some good speaker manufacturers, and save that way. My PSB's are cheaper and easier to come by here then in the states - but my understanding that their sub at that price point is just " average ". http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/subwoofers/SubSeries-125-Subwoofer

I'll sleep on it, and if there's still one of the BIC's available tomorrow I'll probably pick it up. It sneaks in just under 300 with shipping so I think it's a pretty decent deal.

Sorry, in an attempt to correct my grammar - " there and their " I posted twice tongue.gif

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post #20 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 11:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Sorry, in an attempt to correct my grammar - " there and their " I posted twice tongue.gif

Damn those grammar Nazi's. They make life difficult for us all. tongue.gif
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post #21 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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One last question gentlemen. As my budget for the sub has slowly increased, I'm now approaching what it would cost to complete my 7.1 with all the same speakers. I've got the Towers, Center, and side surrounds, all from the same PSB image line, but my rear surrounds are from an older system, and aren't nearly as powerful as the rest of them. I could get another set of bookshelf surrounds, to match my side surrounds, for 400 + tax... this is only a 150 dollar increase over the sub I was looking at. In your opinion, what would affect more change? the matching rear surrounds, or a new subwoofer?

- How did I ever make decisions before the internet? lol.

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post #22 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 01:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

In your opinion, what would affect more change? the matching rear surrounds, or a new subwoofer?

In my opinion, definitely the subwoofer but take into consideration that one needs a subwoofer system which digs deep and gives great mid-bass slam for the sound system to come alive.

In my opinion, a sound system can live without surrounds but it won't come alive without subwoofers. That sort of thing.
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post #23 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 01:22 PM
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In your opinion, what would affect more change? the matching rear surrounds, or a new subwoofer?
A good subwoofer would be a better investment than matching rear surrounds.
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post #24 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

One last question gentlemen. In your opinion, what would affect more change? the matching rear surrounds, or a new subwoofer?

- How did I ever make decisions before the internet? lol.

I would think a sub would help round things out and give you the bang for your buck. I built my system up from 2.1 (computer sized small sub), then added a center for a 3.1, then I went to 5.0 with the side surrounds. I just bought a Klipch RW-12d for my .1, and it really rounds out the sound. My receiver will support a 7.2 setup, but I'm not even considering the surround backs.

My next dollars will probably be front tower MTMs (I have bookshelf MTM's now) and then a second sub, prob a matching Klipsch. The surround backs are least on my "want" list, but music is more important to me than 7.1 movies.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #25 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

I would think a sub would help round things out and give you the bang for your buck. I built my system up from 2.1 (computer sized small sub), then added a center for a 3.1, then I went to 5.0 with the side surrounds. I just bought a Klipch RW-12d for my .1, and it really rounds out the sound. My receiver will support a 7.2 setup, but I'm not even considering the surround backs.

My next dollars will probably be front tower MTMs (I have bookshelf MTM's now) and then a second sub, prob a matching Klipsch. The surround backs are least on my "want" list, but music is more important to me than 7.1 movies.

Regularly I'd of course say your right, but as per my previous posts, I'm just changing over from a previous 7.1 build, Meaning I already have both a sub and surround backs. The choice is whether to upgrade the surround rears to match the towers, side surrounds, and center, or upgrade the sub I also already own smile.gif

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post #26 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 10:17 PM
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Sorry Sean, I jumped right in at the end, so I missed your earlier comments.

It sounds like you are already ahead of me in experience with 7.1 systems, but my small experience with surrounds is that matching them with fronts is not so important, mainly because they cross over so high, so matching timbres in the middle/low range is a non-issue.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #27 of 122 Old 04-06-2013, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

It has everything to do with you making stuff up as you go along.

+/-3dB implies variance from a test level of output within a given range of frequencies.

Any peaks would be at +3dB relative to that test level of output. The lower and upper ends of the range would be at -3dB relative to that test level of output.

At the test level of output used by Klipsch, the RW-12d plays "flat" from 24Hz to 120Hz. At 24Hz (and at 120Hz), the RW-12d is down by 3dB - IOW, it is at -3dB - relative to that test level of output.

So can somebody tell me in plain English what the difference would be between +-3dB and -6dB, if you raise the test output level by 3dB for the latter? rolleyes.gif

Since we EQ everything anyway I would think that max output SPL at a given Hz would be more important than how high or low the default output SPL is relative to the midbass? rolleyes.gif

To the question regarding matching surrounds or better sub: I've invested about $300 on my sub (Mirage Omni-S10) relative to ~$50 for my mains and "AVR" put together (practically white van material) in my 2.1 system and I think they are about perfectly matched in terms of performance after I tune the mains with EQ rolleyes.gif
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post #28 of 122 Old 04-07-2013, 01:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Joe0Bloggs View Post




To the question regarding matching surrounds or better sub: I've invested about $300 on my sub (Mirage Omni-S10) relative to ~$50 for my mains and "AVR" put together (practically white van material) in my 2.1 system and I think they are about perfectly matched in terms of performance after I tune the mains with EQ rolleyes.gif

Hmmm, well I'm in a different situation, My fronts, center and side surrounds are about 1800 dollars worth of speakers. So the question for me might be different with respect to what to do first. I'm tempted just to stick with PSB for everything for what it's worth, as I live in an apartment anyways and needing it to shake the walls is definitely not one of my requirements. I'll let everyone know what I'm going to do, I've got an itchy trigger finger right now though I'll tell ya! smile.gif

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post #29 of 122 Old 04-07-2013, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Hmmm, well I'm in a different situation, My fronts, center and side surrounds are about 1800 dollars worth of speakers. So the question for me might be different with respect to what to do first. I'm tempted just to stick with PSB for everything for what it's worth, as I live in an apartment anyways and needing it to shake the walls is definitely not one of my requirements. I'll let everyone know what I'm going to do, I've got an itchy trigger finger right now though I'll tell ya! smile.gif

My point was that subs are a much harder target in terms of investment required to get them to sound decent compared to mains, never mind surrounds...
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post #30 of 122 Old 04-07-2013, 02:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, It's down to these two subs:

The previously recommended and very tempting:

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B0000Y2WY8/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=18BKJ0C3ZX2502MD3V17&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1375923922&pf_rd_i=915398



or

http://baybloorradio.com/index.php?route=product/product&keyword=psb+subs&product_id=382

The PSB doesn't have nearly as low a frequency response, however it is front firing, ( better for my downstairs neighbors a bit ) and it would match the rest of my system ( apparently ). Also, that Paul Barton knows what he's doing.

Will pull the trigger on one of these tomorrow!

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