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post #1 of 6 Old 04-10-2013, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Well...not so much help as direction. I've been digging and digging. Problem is I think i'm missing the understanding of a few fundamentals that I haven't figured out with my searching.

Here is my deal. I have a nice "media area" going in the basement. I'm definitely focusing in on WAF aspects (which is fine). However, one thing I know from experience is that too little sub is much worse than too little speaker. I mean you can turn speakers down..but too little sub is either farting or inaudible.

The main media area is ~2000 cubes. Problem is, the remaining volume of the basement (which is fundamentally fully open, imagine a big L shape) is probably more like 4000-5000 cubes. That is a fair amount of volume to pressurize. Good news is that i'm not aiming for 115 dB levels. I'm probably aiming for a nominal peak of 95dB max @ listening point which drops the LFE channel to 105 dB respectively. This is huge I think..at least that is what the math tells me. smile.gif

The sub(s) need to fit in one/two compartments which have a volume of 19W"x19h"x15d". This is somewhat flexible since it is going in custom cabinetry. Therefore it/they will need to be front firing and front ported (or sealed). So I've been looking @ SVS subs & seeing around $500. This doesn't seem like a bad price to me. However..is 300W enough or am I going to completely unhappy? Will two even be enough? I would be definitely capping out @ $1k..so do I need to go DIY then? Putting the sub in a small box like that...will a sub with an embedded amplifier overheat?

I guess the real questions is how much power do I really need 4000-5000 cubes with a primary listening distance of ~12 feet. @ 105 dB base?

1. Your budget. $500 min, $1000 max

2. Size requirements/limits. Two enclosed volumes available that are approximately 19W"x19h"x15d".

3. Room dimensions. Main media area is 2000 cubes but total open basement is 4000-5000 cubes

4. Primary uses. 80% HT/TV viewing, 10% music, 10% gaming. So..an LFE channel

5. Listening habits. for me...THIS IS SPARTA..for the wife...dowton abbey.

6. Appearance requirements. WAF all the way. Knowing my wife..she is much more amenable to spending money when it fits a goal. Also...with the potential of guests with drinks and little ones, hiding them is in our best interest. For me..I need enough sub so i'm not thinking "I wish I spent more". I don't need so much that it needs to go to 11.

7. Timeframe. 3 month min..6 month max.

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
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post #2 of 6 Old 04-10-2013, 07:08 AM
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I'm guessing you already know this. But you created a huge headache for yourself by needing the subs to go into those cabinets. For one that is usually not good for the sound of a sub, but for two and most importantly you are really limiting your choice of subs because of size and budget.

I would say at minimum you would need 2 SVS SB12 NSD's which are $1150 for both. I don't know that they will do justice for that room tho but they will fit in the space you are needing.

I would think 2 Hsu ULS15's would be a ton better but they are a lot more expensive and they are an 18" cube. So not sure if the depth is a deal breaker.

Can you in any possible way put the subs somewhere else???

Shawn
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post #3 of 6 Old 04-10-2013, 07:34 AM
 
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(Very, very nice intro write up. Very impressive)
Quote:
5. Listening habits. for me...THIS IS SPARTA..for the wife...dowton abbey.

Could be trouble in Paradise. wink.gif And you also wrote fail all over the subwoofer project by limiting yourself in budget and restricting the size of the subwoofer cabinets. eek.gif

A simple way of looking at it, one doesn't tell the subwoofers what to do as the subwoofers tell the owner what they want and if they're to perform at peak capability, they'll get their way. That sort of thing.

A room has acoustics and how the room's acoustics interact with the sound waves produced by the sub dictate the subs location, the owner of the room and the subwoofers are relegated to the authoritative position of head subwoofer mover as room measurements show the owner where the best location of the subs is to be.

Think of subwoofers like a cat or a wife, it's not healthy to a man's mental health to tell either, what to do. eek.gif

In a room that size, my recommendation would be to get room measuring capability and four subwoofers, a few cases of beer and take some time to get these to all mesh together.

Since it's a basement room, three or four PSA, XS15's would work very nicely. If the budget isn't there, buy two and add a third later. If the budget is still restricted, buy three Klipsch, RW-12d's from Newegg with an eye on a fourth. A suggestion, give up on the idea of stuffing these subwoofers into these cabinets as doing so limits one subwoofer choices, locks the subs into one location and you won't be able to try additional location as in the end, with measuring software showing you the acoustical way, you'll end up buying two, three or four more subs to make up for the deficiencies created by trying to herd cats made out of subwoofers into these two cabinet locations.

Just saying. And I hope the brevity of my above is found insightfully helpful as my above is not intended to be discouraging.

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post #4 of 6 Old 04-10-2013, 07:38 AM
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This gets you close on your requirements... which I think are challenging.

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/US/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?Pid=BT1100(BostonAcoustics)&CatId=HomeAudio(BostonAcoustics_US)&SubCatId=BT(BostonAcoustics_US)

The BT1100 Subs are 12" front ported subs made for cabinet installations and the dimensions are (HxWxD) 18-1/4 x 17-1/2 x 19" Price $599 each but you might be able to find one cheaper elsewhere to meet your budget.

I put one in some custom cabinets for my folks and it worked out great. As with anything YMMV.

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post #5 of 6 Old 04-10-2013, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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So. Here is some more detail. I have uploaded a PDF (use Foxit if paranoid about viruses) which shows the basement. The desired location would be on the bottom left and right of the AV cabinet. The on the last page NOT IN BLUE will be the area the sub needs to fill for movies. And...I made math area...more like 6700 cubes (850 square feet). eek.gif So let me ask more questions.

Q1. How much power do I really need to reasonably power this volume? As I said..i'm not aiming to dominate the world. The target with the normal speakers at the prime spot is ~95 dB. Therefore the sub only needs to hit ~105 dB if we go with the "you really need 10 more" guidance. Am I wrong?

Q2. If I try and shove two subs in the "media center" @ ~300W each....will I even be remotely happy?

Q3. If not, will two larger subs be good or am I really looking at need four+ strategically placed.

Q4. If I go multi sub..will I need any external equipment (other than the AVR) to calibrate "correctly"?

Thanks again!

Visio-theater_wall_08apr2013.pdf 1430k .pdf file
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Visio-theater_wall_08apr2013.pdf (1.40 MB, 8 views)

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post #6 of 6 Old 04-11-2013, 05:47 AM
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The thing with bass is it works differently than other frequencies. For speakers you can get speakers that will acheive your desired SPL at the MLP and that's kinda all that matters (not really but without getting too technical). For subs you need to take into consideration the total volume of the area open to where the subs will be.

For me placing 2 subs in the media cabinet would not suffice. And I own 2 Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus's, which are good subs but by no means crazy high end like a SubM or Captivator. So I consider my expectations pretty good not expecting the best but wanting sub 20hz output at the MLP..... For a room your size I would look into a minimum of 2 Hsu VTF-15H's OR 2 PSA XV30's OR 2 PSA XS30's.

Shawn
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