Either of these any good? Cerwin Vega Subwoofers - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 04-22-2013, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I know they are both older models, and not the very best but for a beginer with a very small budget... In my local Craigslist there are 2 home theater subwoofers listed. One is a Cerwin Vega LW12 and the other is a Cerwin Vega HT-12PWR. I know they don't compare to any of the new subs out there but my budget is very small. These are listed for around $100. I have a Yamaha YST-SW315 and every time I get any decent bass tracks on a movie like Jurassic Park, the sub always bottoms out, so I have to lower the volume on the sub which takes away from the impact. Any thoughts on either of these subs would be greatly appreciated.
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post #2 of 32 Old 04-22-2013, 08:40 PM
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I can't comment on which is better or the specs of them. BUT I own the smaller HT-10PWR that I purchased new in 97/98 and has been in use this whole time. SOOO... I'd say I've got my moneys worth out of it. smile.gif
That HT-12 looks clean and in good shape. It will probably be 'boomy' and I doubt it will produce much past 30Hz but if it has been taken care of and sounds OK I'd buy it if it was here in MN.
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post #3 of 32 Old 04-22-2013, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe you can help me. Your comment about it being "boomy" is the reason I am looking at subs. What I want from a sub is a sub that hits hard every time there is scene that calls for the subwoofer. For example on one of Jurassic Parks there is a scene where the airplane they are in crashes and falls off a tree. When the plane falls of the tree and hits the floor a make a big "thump". With my current Yamaha sub it bottoms out. I borrowed a 12" sub from a friend it even thought it was more bassy it did seem to be more of an extended boom instead of a snappy thump. Does this make sense? I know 15 years ago when I installed a subwoofer in my car, the 12" subs where better for boomy bass and the 10" where best for snappy music like rock and metal. The 12s being boomy for music like rap. So for home theater in order to get that snappy bass, that "thump" should be I considering a 10" instead, maybe 2, 10" subs?
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post #4 of 32 Old 04-22-2013, 09:34 PM
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I think the 10 vs 12 thing is mostly myth.... there are others here who will set that straight. I believe it had more to do with car sub manufactures having a one size fits all motor structure... thus 12s would be slower/sloopier but a 10 or 8 with the same motor would sound better or accurate.

As for the CV... its a 10-15 year old sub. smile.gif It's probably a bit tired like my ten. I compared my HT-10 head to head a few month ago with a cheap 12" sub and I realized how boomy/muddy it really was. (I've known it all along, but it is only for Movies in a secondary location so I don't mind) Plus it just won't die.

It sounds like you are looking for SPL "hits hard" and maybe some better extension. The HT-12 should provide the SPL, not sure about the extension part. The yammy is listed 20-160 at -10dB... I have no idea what the HT-12 is. I'd be willing to bet the Yamaha is the more accurate sub and will likely sound better for music. BUT the HT-12 should provide more output even if it isn't as accurate. With a $100 budget you have to pick your battles. Maybe continue to save up? How big is your space? If you have a small space and/or can double your budget there are probably better options like the BIC F12.

The HT-12 is a dinosaur... it probably wasn't very accurate when it was new (my 10 wasn't) and the years probably haven't helped. BUT in its favor, it should put out some SPL in the 35-100 range. And in my opinion either I got lucky, or they did a good job on the amp/driver design because mine works just fine AND I've seen other HT-10/12s on CL/ebay before. MY HT-10 was my first Sub purchase ($500-700 when new) and has outlasted a bunch of $200-300 subs with Class D/Bash cheap Chinese made amps. Best thing to do is ask if you can listen to it. If you can't demo it walk away and keep saving. Make sure it doesn't pop or hum. (Mine has a slight pop when it kicks in but it has always been that way) I still have my remote and my Harmony One works with it as well (even though you should use your AVR to adjust the bass should you need to). The clip LED on the front is nice... its easy for my son to know he is pushing it to hard.
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post #5 of 32 Old 04-22-2013, 09:38 PM
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IMHO, except in the case of a rare grossly mistuned sub, boomy bass is usually the room's fault not the sub. For example my Mirage S-10 (a budget 10") was measured with a smooth response from 2x to 8x Hz, but placed in my room it makes a 15dB spike at 33Hz. This room mode is so severe that a 33Hz sine tone is audibly ringing for like a half second after I hit stop. There's your boomy bass right there... with the 33Hz node EQed down the sub sounds much tighter and more impactful.
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post #6 of 32 Old 04-22-2013, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the lengthy reply. I really appreciate it. So let me ask you this. If you had the choice of getting either of these 2 or saving for another month or so and getting a Velodyne 12" front firing sub? I see a few listed on Craigslist and have seen them before for about $200 or so. Would that be a safer bet to get me to where I want to be? Of will I not see a difference between the CV, Yamaha -vs- Velodyne.
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post #7 of 32 Old 04-22-2013, 09:42 PM
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Also, car subs are strapped for space, and an oversize driver in a too-small enclosure will have a resonant midbass frequency and roll off fast (rather than produce deep bass as expected of its driver size). But give a big driver a big enclosure and this wouldn't be an issue.
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post #8 of 32 Old 04-22-2013, 09:47 PM
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Can you save up $300? The Klipsch RW-12D is the budget sub everybody and his dog are raving about, (you can find a huge thread for it on the first page of this forum) and it's going for under $300 all the time. Apparently it used to cost much much more when it was new...
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post #9 of 32 Old 04-22-2013, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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$300 might be doable, the problem is that by the time I save $300 (2 months) it will probably not be available any more. Seems to always happen to me. I saw the listings about the Klipsch and was wondering about it. Would you consider it better than the Velodyne?
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post #10 of 32 Old 04-23-2013, 06:03 AM
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I've had the LW-12 for probably 15 years. It provides plent of "fill" bass, but it isn't punchy at all. Now that I'm redoing my home theater set-up, I'm going to add a sub that has more punch to it. Sounds like the same situation that you are in. I'm not sure that the LW-12 is going to give you the punch that you are looking for.
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post #11 of 32 Old 04-23-2013, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Tampa, let me ask you this, what kind of sub are you going with? I am going to Best Buy today to listen to a few of the ones they offer.
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post #12 of 32 Old 04-23-2013, 02:03 PM
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BTW, if you can swing the $280 for the RW-12D at newegg, it is a great sub. I own it as well. It destroys the CV and it isn't fair. Not sure the 12D will last 15 years but I'd recommend saving up some more $$$.
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post #13 of 32 Old 04-23-2013, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I will adhere to some of the advice here and same a little more and get me something like this Klipsch. I have a question thought. When I went to Best Buy today, which was a bust since the only thing the sales rep wanted to show me was the Martin Logan 10" for $500 and said the Klipsch was no where close to the same sound. What he did tell me is that if I was going to downgrade to Klipsch, I should look at Energy instead because Energy is the higher end of Klipsch brand. He said they are both made by the same company, is that correct?
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post #14 of 32 Old 04-24-2013, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cessna1466u View Post

I think I will adhere to some of the advice here and same a little more and get me something like this Klipsch. I have a question thought. When I went to Best Buy today, which was a bust since the only thing the sales rep wanted to show me was the Martin Logan 10" for $500 and said the Klipsch was no where close to the same sound. What he did tell me is that if I was going to downgrade to Klipsch, I should look at Energy instead because Energy is the higher end of Klipsch brand. He said they are both made by the same company, is that correct?

Klipsch bought Energy some years back. Then Audiovox bought Klipsch. I wouldn't say Energy is the higher end of Klipsch. At the present, there are no Energy subs that compete with the Klipsch RW-12D for the price of $280. If you want to spend less than that, check out the BIC subs; you can get an F12 for $200. And btw, I wouldn't listen to anything someone at Best Buy tells you about speakers.
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post #15 of 32 Old 04-24-2013, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benunc View Post

I wouldn't listen to anything someone at Best Buy tells you about speakers.

+1

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post #16 of 32 Old 04-24-2013, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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If I wanted to move up a little better than the Klipsch, what would I be looking at. Velodyne? HSU?
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post #17 of 32 Old 04-24-2013, 01:26 PM
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Probably one of the ID brands like Hsu, Rythmik, Outlaw, etc, etc. But you'll need to spend about twice what that Klipsch sells for.
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post #18 of 32 Old 04-24-2013, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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The reason I was asking is that I can get my hands on an HSU VTF-2 Subwoofer for $200 here locally through Craigslist. I know its an older model and only a 10" but if it is a better brand and might outperform the Klipsch? I can also look into getting a second HSU VTF-2 at a later date. I see them on some of the online auction sits for about $200 or so.
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post #19 of 32 Old 04-24-2013, 05:38 PM
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No brainer there. If you can get a working HSU sub for $200, do it.

Other than the Klipsh at $300, your next best price/performance jump will be in the $500 - $650 range with the SVS PB-1000, Outlaw LFM-1 EX, and HSU VTF-3. Things go upward from there.
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post #20 of 32 Old 04-25-2013, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you all for your help, I really appreciate it. Since the only thing local for me to try out is Best Buy, I seem to get all my information from forums like this. There really isn't a place near by that I can go listen to other subs besides the mainstream one. Here are my choices as of right now. The problem I am having with the Klipsch is that I tend to suffer from a little of OCD, my entire system right now is Yamaha, I love the receiver, the mains, the center and the surrounds. The sub I don't like. Its the YST-SW315. I know that if I buy the Klipsch subwoofer, I am going to have an issue with having the other speakers not being the same because in the back of my mind I know that Klipsch also makes speakers. I know its stupid because almost everyone has mix matched components. I also know that no matter what other subwoofer I get, it will not match my Yamaha speakers. Trust me I wish it didn't matter to me, It is something I cannot control. I used to have a bunch of Harbor Freight tools, then one day I needed a circular saw for a project. I went to Sears and picked up one of their saws, while there I looked at all their tools. 3 years later, I no longer own a single Harbor Freight tool and all my tools are Craftsman. I cannot control it. The only way I can accept certain things is if I know for a fact, that without a doubt I have made the best choice or there is no other choice.

With that said, again I really appreciate everyone's help. I have someone interested in the Yamaha and will have money to buy a replacement. So here are my choices right now:

Klipsch RW12-D $300

HSU VTF-2 $200

HSU MBM-12 (Not the MK2 version) $250

Velodyne VRP series 12" $200

All of these are with in 70 miles drive, so driving to all of them and listening to them will not work. I need to go the opinion from the pros here.
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post #21 of 32 Old 04-25-2013, 10:37 AM
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The HSU MBM is a mid-bass module - you don't want it as your only sub.

I don't know anything about the Velodyne but if it was me, I'd skip it.

You need to find out more about the VTF-2. Is it the MK1, MK2, 3 or 4? If it's the 1 or 2, I'd pass as it's probably over 10 years old. If it's the 3, I'd probably check it out. I'm betting it's the 1 or 2 though.

If you're not in a hurry, the Klipsch has sold for $280 recently and I wouldn't be surprised to see it priced there again before long.
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post #22 of 32 Old 04-25-2013, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Benunc, I emailed the guy with the HSU VTF-2 to see if what model it is. It looks very new, but doesn't say what model it is. So if it is the 1 or 2, you would recommend the Klipsch?
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post #23 of 32 Old 04-25-2013, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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post #24 of 32 Old 04-25-2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cessna1466u View Post

Thanks Benunc, I emailed the guy with the HSU VTF-2 to see if what model it is. It looks very new, but doesn't say what model it is. So if it is the 1 or 2, you would recommend the Klipsch?

I think that's what I'd do personally. But you might want to ask in the Hsu thread and see what they say b/c to be honest, I don't know much about the sub. Based on the specs, I don't think there's much difference in the performance of the subs though so I'd pay $100 more for a brand new sub with warranty than a 10+ yr old sub.
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post #25 of 32 Old 04-25-2013, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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post #26 of 32 Old 04-25-2013, 01:00 PM
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cessna1466u,

Take it from a guy that has had many HSU subs....the MBM is a mid bass module and is good only down to 50hz. Mid bass only, and
not to be used as a regular sub. The VTF2/MK1 is too old. I would not buy it. I'm not even sure HSU has replacement parts for it.

The sub you should be getting (by a long shot) is the Klipsch RW12-D. No need to be OCD about having all your components being of the same make.
I have Sonus Faber L/R center and surrounds....but not a Sonus Faber sub cause they don't make them (distributor makes REL subs to match somewhat).
but I have PSA XV-15 subs. I've been in audio 40 yrs, and never has my sub matched my mains.

Order the Klipsch from newegg! smile.gif

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Edit: cessna1466u, just to clarify, the Klipsch Rw-12D goes on sale every 2 or 3 weeks (check the thread on it), as today it is 349.99.
I know you don't have $300 right now, but save up.....as this sale will go on (and off) for many months in my opinion.
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post #27 of 32 Old 04-25-2013, 07:02 PM
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The RW-12D is going to be better than the HSU VTF-2 MK1.

Mark my words...

Skip that decade old HSU and buy a new Klipsch RW-12D. It's a better sub, and it's a newer sub.



The RW-12D was compared directly against ID subs in the 2007 Sound and Vision shootout. It went up against SVS, HSU, Velodyne, and Outlaw. It placed midpack against the $600-$900 subs. The HSU it competed against in that writeup was the HSU VTF-3 MK3 with turbo attachement --- The VTF-3 MK3 was a MUCH better sub than the VTF-2 MK1 was.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/shootout-five-mid-price-subwoofers

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post #28 of 32 Old 04-27-2013, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I promise this is the last question. I am pretty much ready to purchase the Klipsch RW-12D but today as I looked one last time, I see that some posted on Craigslist near to me a Definitive Technology Powerfield 1500 12" subwoofer in great condition. When I look it up it looks like this might be a very good sub, he is only asking for $280. The Klipsch is $300. I know its an older sub but being that it was very high end back in the day would it be better than a newer Klipsh? Any opinions would be greatly appreciated. I plan on contacting the Klipsch buy tomorrow and setting up a time to pick it up.
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post #29 of 32 Old 04-27-2013, 08:50 PM
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In it's day, the Powerfield 1500 was and is a very good sub. But the Klipsch is the better sub by a long shot.
That's my opinion. I've never heard the Powerfield 1500, but have read a lot about it. It sold for $1000 back in the
early 90's. The Klipsch also sold for $1000 originally.

It's a tough decision. For $20 more I would get the Klipsch. It's an older model, that really kicks out the bass. I
don't own one, but have heard it. I've had many subs.....5 HSU's, 1 Mirage, 1 Velodyne, and currently 3 PSA
XV-15's. I think the Klipsch is a better sub....that one I've heard at a friends house, and was very impressed!

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post #30 of 32 Old 04-27-2013, 09:19 PM
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You sound like you'd be getting a used klipsch. You can buy a brand new one from newegg for $300. It might not be $300 now but it will be again soon. My friends just got it for $280 actually.

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