Subwoofer for music - under $200 - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I've actually seen woofers suspended from the ceiling using strings, actually nylon fishing line, to make the point that I think Bill is trying to make.

If you do the math, you find that while subwoofer cabinets may vibrate some, it isn't mostly their their vibrations that cause transmission of bass to other rooms. If you do the measurements, they agree with the math.

The sound mostly gets transmitted from the woofer cone to the walls and ceiling floor and then to the rooms above, below and next door.

Suspend the woofer on nylon lines so that it even can bounce up and down a bit, and not that much changes.

Surprise, surprise the major source of sound from a woofer is its cone and the port if there is one.

I understand and agree with your statement, however the closer the source is to said reflection the louder (less-accurate) it becomes. This loudness surely translates through walls.

EDIT: Thinking about it, aren't sub-woofer boxes built to resonate? A cone without a box would be feeble.
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post #62 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 11:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

Surely a sub playing at quiet volumes isn't as hard to attain with a budget compared to someone looking for a loud and accurate sub.

Wishing the best in finding what you want.
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post #63 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe0Bloggs View Post

That doesn't really work as long as you're using sine tones for your plotting. When the amplitude response for 1000Hz and, say, 1005Hz can differ by several dB, then it's little better than moving the graphic EQ at random if you think you can take the label frequencies of your graphic EQ, say 31, 62, 125, 250, 500, 1k, 2k, 4k, 8k, 16k and play sine tones at just those frequencies and adjust the graphic EQ sliders accordingly. Probably one of those things that gave EQ a bad name, really rolleyes.gif

Sure. But if the goal is to tame the major peaks on the sub, one can do it by hand with an SPL meter with measuring a little more discriminately. Every 5hz or so would tell you a lot. . And if someone wants sine wave test tones for individual hz from 10hz on up to 120hz, Home Theater Shack has them.

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post #64 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

Well I'm not foreign to spending $1500 on audio but I think we're getting a little caried away here.

I'm looking for a sub-woofer to match my $300 Arimotiv 4s which are to be played quietly. Surely a sub playing at quiet volumes isn't as hard to attain with a budget compared to someone looking for a loud and accurate sub.

I think you can do that with something like that with the SB-1000 and have a good match. The Airmotiv 4s aren't going to give you HD800 resolution quality midbass, midrange, and treble anyway. They sound pretty good, but they aren't that good.

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post #65 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I think you can do that with something like that with the SB-1000 and have a good match. The Airmotiv 4s aren't going to give you HD800 resolution quality midbass, midrange, and treble anyway. They sound pretty good, but they aren't that good.

No you're right, while they do sound fantastic the HD800 are better overall. What I was referring to was the neutral bass of the HD800, while the majority of people would consider it under-par (for movies, hip hop etc) I think it's just about perfect.

I am pretty much set on the SB-1000, I'm going to see if I can give it a listen and buy one next week.
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post #66 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

No you're right, while they do sound fantastic the HD800 are better overall. What I was referring to was the neutral bass of the HD800, while the majority of people would consider it under-par (for movies, hip hop etc) I think it's just about perfect.

I am pretty much set on the SB-1000, I'm going to see if I can give it a listen and buy one next week.

You'll have to find someone who owns one. They are Internet direct, so no local vendors. You could try the SVS owners thread here in the subwoofer forum. But SVS is good about taking returns, and even tradeups in the first year: http://www.svsound.com/bill-of-rights

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post #67 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

Are you speaking from first hand experience when you call hogwash?
Yes. I've done extensive measurements of their effect on transmission of bass through floors, walls and ceilings. They have none. If they did those who manufacture them would have measured results to back up their claims. There are none, nor have I ever seen a measured result from a user that backs up their claims of what they think they've heard them do. They're very much in the same category of high priced cables, long on claims of having properties that defy the laws of acoustics, but short on proof.
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EDIT: Thinking about it, aren't sub-woofer boxes built to resonate? A cone without a box would be feeble.
A subwoofer enclosure that resonates within the subwoofer frequency pass band is defective. Ideally they wouldn't resonate at all, but that's difficult to achieve. They do resonate somewhat in the midrange, but only slightly, not enough to be heard, let alone cause objects in a room to vibrate, or bother the neighbors.

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post #68 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 03:18 PM
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@BeeMan,

My goal is to cover the bottom limit of a bass guitar/kick drum. That said:

Would a pair of Dayton SUB-800 be better than a single SUB-1200?

Bill
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post #69 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Yes. I've done extensive measurements of their effect on transmission of bass through floors, walls and ceilings. They have none. If they did those who manufacture them would have measured results to back up their claims. There are none, nor have I ever seen a measured result from a user that backs up their claims of what they think they've heard them do. They're very much in the same category of high priced cables, long on claims of having properties that defy the laws of acoustics, but short on proof.
A subwoofer enclosure that resonates within the subwoofer frequency pass band is defective. Ideally they wouldn't resonate at all, but that's difficult to achieve. They do resonate somewhat in the midrange, but only slightly, not enough to be heard, let alone cause objects in a room to vibrate, or bother the neighbors.

Are you guys talking about something like those Auralex platforms for subs?

Bill
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post #70 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 03:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bill_B4 View Post

@BeeMan,

My goal is to cover the bottom limit of a bass guitar/kick drum. That said:

Would a pair of Dayton SUB-800 be better than a single SUB-1200?

Not being a musician, I haven't clue what the bottom limits are of a bass guitar or a kick drum might be.

Something discussions of this kind conjure up, what are the limits of stage/studio produced music.

Pick a rock band.....what are the stage bass guitar amplifiers capable of? When I check things out, I'm seeing one or two 8" - 15" woofers with 45w - 450w of amplification.
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post #71 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill_B4 View Post

@BeeMan,

My goal is to cover the bottom limit of a bass guitar/kick drum. That said:

Would a pair of Dayton SUB-800 be better than a single SUB-1200?

Bill
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Not being a musician, I haven't clue what the bottom limits are of a bass guitar or a kick drum might be.

Something discussions of this kind conjure up, what are the limits of stage/studio produced music.

Pick a rock band.....what are the stage bass guitar amplifiers capable of?

Maybe this would help.

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post #72 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 04:02 PM
 
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Thanks but that doesn't help as that's generic vs empirical and is too generalized for the needs of my question. I edited my above comments to include what I could quickly Google up on my question.

I'm finding a four or five string bass guitar has a range of 31Hz to 41Hz.

(which agrees with your thoughtfully provided graphic)

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post #73 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

Maybe this would help.
Somewhat, but it is deceiving. Most instruments with fundamentals below 100Hz have more power content in the 2nd and 3rd harmonics than in the fundamental. That said, you must remember that what's on that chart isn't what matters, how the mix was done in the studio does, and studio mixes are typically flat to 35Hz. If you want to reproduce the recording as it was mixed you also need flat response to 35Hz.

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post #74 of 75 Old 05-03-2013, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

Well I'm not foreign to spending $1500 on audio but I think we're getting a little caried away here.

I'm looking for a sub-woofer to match my $300 Arimotiv 4s which are to be played quietly. Surely a sub playing at quiet volumes isn't as hard to attain with a budget compared to someone looking for a loud and accurate sub.

Honestly talk of EQ was a curve ball I wasn't expecting. Taking into account the inverse square law, room dynamics only affect reflected sound (ITD) so how do you account for what comes directly out of the speaker? Furthermore a sub-woofer in a 3-way corner will give you 12db of reflection whereas a 2-way corner will give you 6db and 3db on 1 wall (floor).

One of the reasons we don't EQ headphones is simply down to mastering, music is pre-EQ'd so you would have to EQ per song. If you're simply using EQ to flatten your room (which I believe to be impossible) are you taking into account phons curve and matching something that looks like this?


1. Ported subs drop off at 12dB / octave below their cutoff frequency. Sealed subs drop off at 6dB, but they drop off earlier than ported subs. The take home message is that subs pretty much play loud and clear or not at all at a certain frequency. And if you were expecting to get usable output from a sub below its cutoff point by playing quietly, all the more reason to EQ, because you would need to EQ boost below its cutoff point aggressively to get flat response below its cutoff point.

2. The important thing you left out is nulls. There are limits to how much sound can be boosted by resonance as you pointed out but there are no limits to cancellation. They can often cancel to zero (-inf dB). Of course you shouldn't try to boost such nulls, but what I was seeing in my FR plot was probably 33Hz being boosted while the rest of the sub frequencies got cancelled to some extent or other. The result was a peak more than the theoretical possible 12dB.

3. Music is pre-EQed to a reference system, here we are trying to EQ our systems to match that reference system.

4. Those are equal loudness curves and come into play when you are playing music at something other than the volume it was mastered at. Generally you make a V curve if you're listening quieter than the reference or an A curve if you're listening louder. But this can only be done when you know what your system's response is like in the first place.
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post #75 of 75 Old 05-04-2013, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe0Bloggs View Post

1. Ported subs drop off at 12dB / octave below their cutoff frequency. Sealed subs drop off at 6dB, but they drop off earlier than ported subs.
On average ported subs drop off at 24dB, sealed at 12dB, but that's not a hard and fast rule. The exact rate depends on the system Q, and one can design both ported and sealed cabs that roll off at the same rate. The f3 frequency depends on a variety of factors, and whether it's a ported or sealed cab isn't one of them.
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2. The important thing you left out is nulls. There are limits to how much sound can be boosted by resonance as you pointed out but there are no limits to cancellation. They can often cancel to zero (-inf dB). .
Theoretically that's true, practically speaking, it isn't. 24dB is the usual limit, while the average is closer to 12dB.

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