Subwoofer noob, $400 budget, single, dual?? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 182 Old 05-14-2013, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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What about a single sub1200 vs other budget single subwoofer?
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post #92 of 182 Old 05-14-2013, 11:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

What about a single sub1200 vs other budget single subwoofer?

Based on your posted image, open room architecture, a single Sub-1200 won't have enough output. Based on your stated budget of $400.00 to $650.00, two of these in a stacked (co-location) configuration in a corner location will give you serious gain, which is a definite good thing.

For your situation, in my opinion, two of these in a stacked/corner configuration, delivered for $238.00, will give you the best you're going be able to find.

From a pair of corner positioned, co-located Sub-1200's, things just keep getting more and more expensive.

Everything boils down to how many Benjamins one has to throw at a particular subwoofer based problem and how bass crazy one wants to get.
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post #93 of 182 Old 05-14-2013, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Colocated would bother me. I would likely prefer a balanced sound and looks.

So dual daytons vs dual other budget sub vs single rw12d? With price not a factor.
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post #94 of 182 Old 05-14-2013, 01:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

Colocated would bother me. I would likely prefer a balanced sound and looks.

So dual daytons vs dual other budget sub vs single rw12d? With price not a factor.

Based on the above thinking, you'll never come out of the clouds.

Co-location has nothing to do with balance as you've shown you're concerned with price but then speak of dual sub locations. For price, co-location trumps aesthetics. Co-location is bang for buck and in your room, based on your posted images, based on all your comments, you're in a world of hurt regarding output and don't know it.

You're worrying about looks but you struggle regrading price as unintentionally, your effort becomes the quintessential example of the Quixotic struggle of looking for a subwoofer that will fit within your budget, look good and give one the performance of an almost six thousand dollar system and I assure you, it ain't gonna happen; first base.

In the end, it's all about the Benjamins and if one ain't got the Benjamins or the room to fit multiple subs, then it's all about compromise. It really is that simple.

Within a stated budget of up to $650.00, one has choices like, four Sub-1200's or on sale, two RW-12d's or one SB-12 NSD or my preferred choice for your venue, one PC-12 NSD and outside of normal niggles, if an individual wants more for the money, good luck. And unless willing to take the time to learn how to properly integrate their subwoofers into their room's acoustics, they're pretty much, hosed.

There are only so many choices and that's all there is and there ain't no more.

(in direct comment to your above question, without question, dual RW-12d's)

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post #95 of 182 Old 05-14-2013, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmm, does the sub need to be right in the corner to get the boost, what if couple feet off? Also, colocation, means stacking, not side by side?
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post #96 of 182 Old 05-14-2013, 07:30 PM
 
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A foot or so out in either direction and you'll be fine. Here's an old thread that addresses your question.
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post #97 of 182 Old 05-14-2013, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1273027/i-hate-to-ask-but-i-need-a-definition-of-corner-loading#post_19119666

"Corner loading provides the most output possible due to the "focusing" of the reflections off the walls. However, it also causes the most excitement of room modes and potentially can have the most uneven frequency response. It is always worth trying corner loading of a subwoofer because you get what is essentially "free" output. Some corner loading situations can add 8 to 10 dB of extra output capability. However, that free output should be weighed against any possible detriment to sound quality."

Sounds like corner loading can be great or terrible depending on the room.
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post #98 of 182 Old 05-14-2013, 08:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

Sounds like corner loading can be great or terrible depending on the room.

One can try recommendation to sees if it works for their room's acoustics. More often then not, one will take benefit placing their sub in a corner and if there's a problem they'll simply have to find another location. The good news, if it does work, and there aren't any modal complications, the corner loaded boost can be up to 10dB.
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post #99 of 182 Old 05-14-2013, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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What if I corner loaded the daytons all the way up to the 20' ceiling? LOL tongue.gif

Height of 16.75", I could colocate and corner load 14 dayton sub-1200's.
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post #100 of 182 Old 05-14-2013, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I just read this in a subwoofer review. Any truth to this? I know I have read from others that driver size doesn't affect transient attack speed.

"You're referring to the quicker response of an 8" vs. 12" in general application. Yes, generally speaking, an 8" will respond ("attack") faster than a 12" for obvious reasons (size and wattage requirements). BUT, in my experiences, your foremost concern (quality being constant) should be with matching the sub size and wattage to the woofer size of your main/rear/center speakers. How much of your listening spectrum is the sub responsible for? For example, if you have 10" woofers, generally speaking you'll want a 12" or 15" sub to cover the really low end. If you have 6" or 8" woofers, try an 8" or 10" sub to help cover the higher low end. It's all about "gaps" in listening. Don't create them, conceal them.

A lot of what your hear and what is "great sounding" to you is subjective. Some people want a "boomy" sound and dominating sub. They'd rather feel the explosion than hear the words. Some people want a blending and more harmonious and naturally sounding system where the speakers almost disappear as the sound they produce take center stage. For example, I would not buy a 15" sub for 6" woofers. You would be leaving a large midbass gap that would give your system that "boomy" feel.

Yes, a 15" sub will produce much better bass than an 8" sub. It's simple audio science, you need to move air to create bass. The more air you move, the larger/better the sound. BUT, bigger isn't always better.

With 6" woofers, an 8" or 10" sub will sound more natural to your overall system. Even though a 15" sub will shake your house.

With 10" woofers, a 12" or 15" sub would be perfectly matched. While a 8" or 10" sub would almost seem to be unable to overcome the presence of the 10" woofers. Your sub generally needs to displace more air than your woofers to get the natural blend you expect. This isn't science... this is 30 years of listening experience.

I would recommend the next 1 or 2 sizes "up" in sub diameter compared to your woofers. Typically, if you're adding a sub then you've already achieved satisfaction with your other speakers and you just want to "add" what you're missing. So, you don't want your new sub to suddenly shift your focus to it when you're listening. You want your focus to remain where it has been.... up front.

Try for yourself, and let your ears decide. Remember, if it sounds good to you.. that's all that matters."
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post #101 of 182 Old 05-14-2013, 10:46 PM
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This isn't science... this is 30 years of listening experience

I think that speaks volumes rolleyes.gif His article/review doesn't make a lot of sense to me in any case. Or is it an article/review or a response in a forum or something? What''s the source if you're going to quote it?

If you want some good info on bass go here http://www.data-bass.com/home

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post #102 of 182 Old 05-14-2013, 11:03 PM - Thread Starter
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That long quote, I got was from a post in parts express Q&A section for one of the dayton audio sub-1200 or sub-1000. Or might have been a in a comment in one of the reviews. I can't seem to locate it now.

Just wondering peoples thoughts on it.
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post #103 of 182 Old 05-14-2013, 11:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like dayton recently had a recall on their last subwoofer dayton sub-120. 0.5% of units at risk of extreme heat, smoke, or fire.

http://www.overclock.net/t/939032/warning-dayton-subwoofers-recall-amp-recall
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post #104 of 182 Old 05-15-2013, 12:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow, if i had decided to corner stack 14 dayton sub-120's all the way up to my 20' ceiling, then I would have increased my chance of extreme heat, smoke, or fire by 0.4%*14 = 5.6%, biggrin.gif
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post #105 of 182 Old 05-15-2013, 08:13 AM
 
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That was a different sub model, the 120...The new model has no such issues, the 1200...For what it's worth, I own the sub 120, never an issue (but also outside the recall range) and my sister the 1200, never an issue beyond outstanding bass. cool.gif

The 120 you reference is from TWO years ago! rolleyes.gif
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post #106 of 182 Old 05-15-2013, 08:34 AM
 
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At this point it seems you're not wanting to pick one. confused.gif

These are all good subwoofers and there's no perfect choice for your situation, only compromises. It's all about the Benjamins and how many you can cut loose with and based on WAF, what you're able to work into your decor. Some examples to choose from that are within your stated budgetary constraints:

Buy and stack two or four Sub-1200's in one or two corners.

Buy two RW-12D's and do the same.

Buy one SVS, PB-12 NSD and place it where you choose.

And there are always going be various choices in the middle as one looks at HSU, SVS, Rythmik, PSA and other mentioned manufactures that have offerings in your price range. Each of the above choices have limitation based compromises, which in turn affect their price and there's no getting around this point and no matter how long you joust with the windmills, the outcome will be the same, limitations and compromises based on decor, room acoustics, number of Benjamins in pocket and the all important WAF; "First base."

And the rub, once you do hook up your choice, you'll now have to deal with properly integrating the output into your room's acoustics which is another ballgame.

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post #107 of 182 Old 05-15-2013, 01:35 PM
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My 18" subwoofer is the best sounding subwoofer I've ever owned. (Compared to 8's, 10's, 12's, and 15's. All different brands of course) The logic that smaller woofers are faster just seems backwards to me.

I'm agreeing with Beeman here. Figure out what you want first, then the subwoofer choice should be obvious.

I'm seeing two options here:

Option 1: Go with two Sub-1200's. This will satisfy your bass craving for now. It will also give you a base point on what budget bass sounds like. This will allow you to really see the improvements and quality in a higher quality subwoofer when you upgrade.(If you ever want to)

Option 2: Go with the most expensive subwoofer you can afford, that meets most of your needs.

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post #108 of 182 Old 05-15-2013, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I have already figured out what I want. I posted that earlier, leaning towards single rw-12d, but waiting for sale. In the meantime, just making chat and learning more about subwoofers.

Didn't know people didn't want to talk about subwoofers in a subwoofer forum.
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post #109 of 182 Old 05-15-2013, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

My 18" subwoofer is the best sounding subwoofer I've ever owned. (Compared to 8's, 10's, 12's, and 15's. All different brands of course) The logic that smaller woofers are faster just seems backwards to me.

Good to get an opinion on this. I hear this argument all the time.
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post #110 of 182 Old 05-15-2013, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

I have already figured out what I want. I posted that earlier, leaning towards single rw-12d, but waiting for sale. In the meantime, just making chat and learning more about subwoofers.

Didn't know people didn't want to talk about subs
again I went with budget subs a few times and wish I would of bought a quality sub from the get go. all the budget purchases would of paid for one quality sub. again I would cough up the cheese and get a rythmik lv12r or outlaw lfm1 and be done. you can thank me after the first time you feel output in the 15-20hz range. biggrin.gif

and i agree with the poster above about big woofers sounding great. it all depends on the quality of the driver, amp and enclosure. small woofers roll off faster which are percieved as faster bass per say...however its not. the smaller subs just dont carry the bass note out like a big driver.
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post #111 of 182 Old 05-15-2013, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Which quality sub or subs do you have now?
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post #112 of 182 Old 05-15-2013, 10:11 PM
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dual psa xv15's. there are other good options also. these are not the end all of subs but the warranty is great and customer service is top notch. I would spend some time contacting ID sub companies and get some advice from them PSA, Rythmik, Hsu, SVS all come to mind.
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post #113 of 182 Old 05-16-2013, 01:15 AM - Thread Starter
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After more research, I just gave in and ordered a bic f12. I can't cancel this order. Tired of waiting for the rw-12d, I know the extension and output would have been better than this f12. I have a feeling it was going to go on sale this friday too, oh well. Really want to get my sub soon.

I just know if I got the rw-12d, I would have been like if I spent so so more. It is never ending. I'll just stick with the budget subs for now. I don't even know what I really want yet. Gotta test myself.

If I like what I hear with the bic f12, I may try duals with it either separated or corner stacked. Having smaller dual f12's sounds like a could have a lot more placement options at least.
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post #114 of 182 Old 05-16-2013, 04:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

If I like what I hear with the bic f12, I may try duals with it either separated or corner stacked.

That's the spirit. Start with one and see what's what with what and then add another. Now that you've had time to play with two, you can think about selling the two and then buy a killer upgrade as now you have a better idea what you're missing.......anticipation.

It's a hobby, a journey, not a destination.

Congrats on your choice and we'll look forward to discussing your purchase or subwoofer if you will as it's all good.
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post #115 of 182 Old 05-16-2013, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

After more research, I just gave in and ordered a bic f12. I can't cancel this order. Tired of waiting for the rw-12d, I know the extension and output would have been better than this f12. I have a feeling it was going to go on sale this friday too, oh well. Really want to get my sub soon.

I just know if I got the rw-12d, I would have been like if I spent so so more. It is never ending. I'll just stick with the budget subs for now. I don't even know what I really want yet. Gotta test myself.

If I like what I hear with the bic f12, I may try duals with it either separated or corner stacked. Having smaller dual f12's sounds like a could have a lot more placement options at least.
You can still get an RW12d later when its on sale and use it with the F12. Thats what I have and you will be better off than having 2 F12s.
And stacking subs is very rarely the best option.

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post #116 of 182 Old 05-16-2013, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

After more research, I just gave in and ordered a bic f12. I can't cancel this order. Tired of waiting for the rw-12d, I know the extension and output would have been better than this f12. I have a feeling it was going to go on sale this friday too, oh well. Really want to get my sub soon.

I just know if I got the rw-12d, I would have been like if I spent so so more. It is never ending. I'll just stick with the budget subs for now. I don't even know what I really want yet. Gotta test myself.

If I like what I hear with the bic f12, I may try duals with it either separated or corner stacked. Having smaller dual f12's sounds like a could have a lot more placement options at least.

I saw when you decided on the RW-12D but then I thought you changed your mind once you started talking about other options. People here love talking about subwoofers, but sometimes we get too anxious and want other people to quickly buy a sub to tell us their impression of it. Ha.

Anyways, congrats on making a decision on the F12. You won't be dissapointed. It's a good sub and at the very least will give you insight and wisdom as to what you're looking for if you ever plan to upgrade. Many people say that they wish they would've gone with the higher end sub first before a budget sub, but I don't honestly believe that. Budget subwoofers give you a reference to base your next, more costly, sub purchases on. I think it's necessary.

Let us know how you like it when you get it.

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post #117 of 182 Old 05-16-2013, 04:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

Budget subwoofers give you a reference to base your next, more costly, sub purchases on. I think it's necessary.

..^^^...

..+1

My complaint, the price of the upgrade. Boo-hoo me.

I want it all, I want it now and I want it too be freeeeeeeeeeee! There's got to be a winning lottery ticket around here somewhere.

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post #118 of 182 Old 05-16-2013, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

You can still get an RW12d later when its on sale and use it with the F12. Thats what I have and you will be better off than having 2 F12s.
And stacking subs is very rarely the best option.

yep i agree...nothing wrong with getting a budget sub to get your feet wet. I suspect a RW12D will on order soon after tho. oh and I forgot to add it to the list of quality subs, but yea its a nice sub for the money. I thought about picking one up for a 2.1 system in another room and putting the yamaha 467 back to work.
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post #119 of 182 Old 05-16-2013, 05:03 AM
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Yeah the cost of upgrading does hurt a bit. But I was able to sell my F12 pretty easily, and I live in a place where people don't really care for audio gear.

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post #120 of 182 Old 05-16-2013, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

Yeah the cost of upgrading does hurt a bit. But I was able to sell my F12 pretty easily, and I live in a place where people don't really care for audio gear.
If you can get someone to listen to the F12 it will usually sell quickly at a small loss. I had several people wanting mine but I thought it was worth more to keep it. I know that if I had sold it for a loss I would have ended up getting something else more expensive. smile.gif

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