Subwoofer noob, $400 budget, single, dual?? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-08-2013, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
csgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Entire room size is 7000 cubic feet open floor plan with 20 foot ceilings and living, kitchen, and dining room in same room.

Listening area (living room): 12 ft length x 10 ft width x 20 ft height

Equipment:
Infinity p363 fronts
Infinity p163 center
Infinity p163 surrounds
Denon 1712 with Audyssey MultEQ XT





I am a subwoofer noob, did some research, but still need some help. I know $400 is a low budget for subwoofers, but wondering if I can get some satisfying bass with this budget. I plan to set crossover at 60hz for center/surrounds, maybe set the p363 at 40hz/60hz

It looks like dual subs next to the bed, right in front of my rear equipment stands would look great. Don't know if they will sound great though.

But dual subs would mean something cheaper like bic f12, with less extension, and can't be as big if I go duals. If I go single, more expensive, larger subwoofer, probably can only get one. If I place the dual subs nearfield, it seems I might get satisfying bass, but I'm not sure. A single large subwoofer would probably have to be placed somewhere along the wall where my antenna is hanging off the lamp, LOL. Not much room by my tv to place a subwoofer as I don't want my front speakers to close to the sidewall or blocking the walking area.

The subs will be mostly for movies. I think for music, I'll just turn off and enjoy 2 channel. But I still don't want one note bass.

Go duals, single, what should I get?

Thanks for any help.
csgamer is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-08-2013, 10:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,435
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 1704
dual jbl es250's should fit the bill.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00166ZFSO/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1368075141&sr=8-1&pi=SL75
basshead81 is offline  
Old 05-08-2013, 10:58 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
csgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
I haven't seen that subwoofer mentioned. I should check it out.

Do you think dual subs would sound better than a single sub, if placed both on sides of the bed, right in front of the rear equipment stands? Just wondering if giving up extension is worth it.
csgamer is offline  
Old 05-08-2013, 11:35 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
csgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Hmm, some mentions of amp issues with the jbl es250 give me some pause. Klipsch rw-12 was another option, but port plugs falling off and some other issues from users.

I wonder how those cheapo dayton sub-1200 sound like, maybe one note bass: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-629

HSU STF-2 probably not enough output.

If placed nearfield, could the stf-2 be enough?
csgamer is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 12:34 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
csgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
So seems like most say bass extension is very important for movies, but multi subs is important too. Everybody seems to be going for the klipsch rw-12d in under $400 price range.

Is 20-25hz low extension really that important for movies? I do like action movies but I think dual 10" subs on both sides may sound good. 10" subs don't usually have good extension though.
csgamer is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 04:36 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

Is 20-25hz low extension really that important for movies?

Yes.

In reality, having a flat, in my opinion, +/-3dB response through the full of the 20Hz to 120Hz is very important so as to experience a movie sound track as to reflect the producer/sound engineer's expectations. And IMO, anything below 20Hz is gravy but again, in my opinion, a minimum expectation should be 20Hz -120Hz, @ +/- 3dB and regarding bass reproduction, one should also acquire the ability to reproduce a consistent 105dB transient minimum. Anything else above and beyond, is gravy.

One's system doesn't come alive until able to reproduce in the sub-20Hz range at a flat +/-3dB specification.

Regarding subwoofers, in the end, it's all about the LFE channel and the ability of the subwoofer system to accurately reproduce what the sound engineer intended.
BeeMan458 is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 06:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,435
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 1704
Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

So seems like most say bass extension is very important for movies, but multi subs is important too. Everybody seems to be going for the klipsch rw-12d in under $400 price range.

Is 20-25hz low extension really that important for movies? I do like action movies but I think dual 10" subs on both sides may sound good. 10" subs don't usually have good extension though.

well if you can afford 1 rw-12d now and get another down the road, the yes i definately would get that sub. 7000^3 is ALOT of room to pressurize, your going to need 2 subs bare minimum.
basshead81 is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 07:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
steve nn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,207
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 428
Quote:
Yes.

In reality, having a flat, in my opinion, +/-3dB response through the full of the 20Hz to 120Hz is very important so as to experience a movie sound track as to reflect the producer/sound engineer's expectations. And IMO, anything below 20Hz is gravy but again, in my opinion, a minimum expectation should be 20Hz -120Hz, @ +/- 3dB and regarding bass reproduction, one should also acquire the ability to reproduce a consistent 105dB transient minimum. Anything else above and beyond, is gravy.

One's system doesn't come alive until able to reproduce in the sub-20Hz range at a flat +/-3dB specification.

Regarding subwoofers, in the end, it's all about the LFE channel and the ability of the subwoofer system to accurately reproduce what the sound engineer intended.
+1 What a difference it makes.

Klipsch RB-75
Klipsch C-7
Klipsch RB-35
On-going SW management class
Denon
PS3
steve nn is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
csgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
The one issue is the klipsch rw-12d is the size would probably limit me to one only. But something like a bic f12 I could get duals since the size is more manageable.
csgamer is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 10:01 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
...confused.gif

There's little difference in size between the two.

...confused.gif

F12, D-22 x H-21 x W-19

vs

12d, D-21 x H-19.s x W-14.6

And according to the above, the 12d is a smaller cabinet then the F12.

...confused.gif
BeeMan458 is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 10:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,435
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 1704
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

...confused.gif

There's little difference in size between the two.

...confused.gif

F12, D-22 x H-21 x W-19 nu

vs

12d, D-21 x H-19.s x W-14.6

And according to the above, the 12d is a smaller cabinet then the F12.

...confused.gif

Lol I noticed that as well but was not going to say anything.
basshead81 is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 10:56 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Lol I noticed that as well but was not going to say anything.

Oh sure, make me do all the dirty heavy lifting. tongue.gif
BeeMan458 is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 11:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
Louquid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 748
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 37
You're looking at the packaging size for the F12. No way the F12 is 22x21x19. Ha.

Actual dimensions of the Bic F12:

17"H x 14 3/4"W x 17 1/4"D

If you're trying to decide between dual F12's and a single RW12-D, then it really depends on what you want.

Dual F12's will provide a more even response within your room. You'll be limited to probably about 27Hz of usable output though, which may be good for music, but not so much for movie usage. But, in that size room you will need to really crack the F12's to get nice volume levels, which in turn will increase distortion and give you sloppy-like bass.

The single RW12-D will get you down to around 23Hz usable (typically, but sometimes lower). You won't have as even a response between 30Hz and 120Hz as dual F12's though. With the RW12-D you may have slightly less distortion at the high volume level needed to fill that space, but it won't be all that much better. Probably wouldn't notice it.

So, it comes down to your wants. Do you want a more even response down to around 27Hz, or a less even response down to 23Hz?

Louquid is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 11:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
Done Deal DR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 727
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 112
I have dual Klipsch RW12D's an am satisfied, I'd honestly buy bigger and badder subs to better compete with my RF-7 II system but even in a single family home my neighbors aren't happy as is. wink.gif I have no doubt 2 would be more than adequate in your small room as mine are in a much larger open concept living room and pump out good, fairly low bass. The only downside is that it's $200 above your budget, roughly.

If $400 was a hard cap for budget I'd probably just opt for a single, better sub. Then down the road you could always get a second. I just feel like capping yourself at $200 per puts you into a lower class of subwoofer.

Maybe buy 1 $300 RW12D and put the other $100 towards a bed? biggrin.gif

PS: What is a bed doing there? It looks like a living or dining room.
gbdavidx likes this.

Home Theater Build in Progress (Contemporary living room, Klipsch RF-7 II 5.2 audio, Sony VPL-HW50ES Projector, Da-Lite 16:9 159" HP, recessed Mid Atlantic rack, etc)
Done Deal DR is online now  
Old 05-09-2013, 11:20 AM
Advanced Member
 
Louquid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 748
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Done Deal DR View Post

I have dual Klipsch RW12D's an am satisfied, I'd honestly buy bigger and badder subs to better compete with my RF-7 II system but even in a single family home my neighbors aren't happy as is. wink.gif I have no doubt 2 would be more than adequate in your small room as mine are in a much larger open concept living room and pump out good, fairly low bass. The only downside is that it's $200 above your budget, roughly.

If $400 was a hard cap for budget I'd probably just opt for a single, better sub. Then down the road you could always get a second. I just feel like capping yourself at $200 per puts you into a lower class of subwoofer.

Maybe buy 1 $300 RW12D and put the other $100 towards a bed? biggrin.gif

PS: What is a bed doing there? It looks like a living or dining room.

This would be my logic as well. Having owned a single Bic F12 I can say it can be rather underwhelming. Especially once you hear a 25Hz note on someone else's sub. Ha.

A single RW12D would give you a good foundation for adding a second in the future.

Ha. Looks like he's just moved in. I lived on an air mattress in my living room for almost a month until I could afford a bed.

Louquid is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 11:22 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

You're looking at the packaging size for the F12. No way the F12 is 22x21x19. Ha.

Actual dimensions of the Bic F12:

17"H x 14 3/4"W x 17 1/4"D

Looks like Amazon needs to be slapped around and straightened up on their measurement quotes.
BeeMan458 is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 11:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
Louquid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 748
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Yeah, when a product isn't being sold by Amazon I usually go to the manufacturer's website.

Louquid is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 12:28 PM
Member
 
swim33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
Posts: 158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I think dual JBL ES250s would do pretty well. I have the ES150 and I love it. I have only one in a larger room and it has no problems filling it. Either that or the klipsch.

-Ben
swim33 is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
csgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Yeah still recently moved in. The bed in the living room was supposed to be temporary, but I found it to be so comfy, that I think it's staying, lol.

Placement seems like such an issue with a bigger sub, could only have one along the wall too. Not about the money, two of a big sub would be too big for my listening space.

Hmm, this will be a hard choice.
csgamer is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
csgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
I think I will be leaving towards smaller sub, not sure which yet, only because I keep hearing placement is so important for the sub. If I had a large listening space with multiple position options for a bigger sub, then I would lean that way. Hope my thinking process is correct.
csgamer is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 01:24 PM
Advanced Member
 
Louquid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 748
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

I think I will be leaving towards smaller sub, not sure which yet, only because I keep hearing placement is so important for the sub. If I had a large listening space with multiple position options for a bigger sub, then I would lean that way. Hope my thinking process is correct.

Nothing wrong with this logic. Not everyone has the space for large sub enclosures. It looks as though going with dual smaller subs may benefit you in your space though. With one sub in the left corner of your room the bass will most likely sound uneven throughout the room. Which isn't an issue if it happens to sound good where you'll be sitting, but this usually isn't the case. (unless you're really luckly). Going with two subs will really help to even the response in your room and better your chances of having quality bass where you want to hear it.

Louquid is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 04:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,435
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 1704
Quote:
Originally Posted by swim33 View Post

I think dual JBL ES250s would do pretty well. I have the ES150 and I love it. I have only one in a larger room and it has no problems filling it. Either that or the klipsch.

I agree especially with a 400.00 budget...dont think you could do much better for the money spent.
basshead81 is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
csgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Any other dual sub options better than the ones mentioned if I raised the budget to $650?
csgamer is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 08:23 PM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

I think I will be leaving towards smaller sub,......

Don't do it. Later in life, you'll reflect on all the bad decisions you made and you're going think back on the time when you thought buying a smaller sub was a good idea.........and then you'll take this past idea...................and file it in the bucket of "Bad decisions I made in my life." Don't do it. biggrin.gif

(humor people, just in case someone missed the smiley face)

Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

Any other dual sub options better than the ones mentioned if I raised the budget to $650?

Looking at the images of your room/system and how everything is positioned, if wanting to do just one subwoofer, I'll recommend the SVS, PC12-NSD. Yes, I know, much more than your newly raised budget, but the recommended subwoofer will blend with the decor, has a very small footprint and has enough output to "try" and deal with the open nature of your room. The larger the cubic footage, the more output one needs to get them where they want to go; the wonderful world of blissful bass.

You can always go with a SVS, SB12-NSD. It has a larger footprint and may not blend with your decor as well but it meets the restrictions of your new budget.

Everything is a compromise that begins with how many Benjamins one has to throw at the idea of buying a subwoofer. One starts out with what they think to be a reasonable budget of $200.00......and the next thing they know, they're in a funny farm as they were clueless how enigmatic, choosing and dialing in a stupid subwoofer was going turn out to be.

Siiiiigh, everything is a compromise and in this case, your room, in of itself is causing many compromises; among which are, size and number of subwoofers. If one wants to dream and keep it simple, then the recommendation would be to buy a single decent sub and once hooked up, come back so as to find out what the best ways are regarding how to integrate the one subwoofer into your room's acoustics. Later, when the time is right, buy a second, third or even fourth subwoofer to feed your need for quality bass sound waves.

-
BeeMan458 is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 08:57 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
csgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Yeah, I'm really hurting my brain on this subwoofer business.

PC12-nsd, I can see my wife now. What the hell is that thing, a big trashcan? LOL. Most audio purchases won't get me in trouble, but I got a bad feeling on that one, lol.

Also, my tv front area is really tight, so my subwoofer(s) would have to be towards the backside of my room, I don't know if it would look right. I dunno, for some reason, I'm not digging the cylinder style. I really like the down firing subwoofer look, but less subwoofer offerings compared to front firing.
csgamer is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 09:10 PM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Now you're looking at a PSA, XS15 but once again my recommendation is above your budget of $650.00 and you'll be going large, not small.

If you go small, you throw extension and output, into the backyard and most people are not happy with anemic bass, all so they could fit the sub in the room. The PC12-NSD will blend nicely with your setup and provide you the much needed output the open nature of your room is going demand. And yes, agreed, based on provided images, you have a tight environment......now you'll have a cozy environment. tongue.gif

In your room, because of all the other tall structures, the tallness of the column will blend and be surprisingly unobtrusive.

Again with the compromises, if you go with a single small solution, your room is going suck up all the bass and just saying, you'll be watching the movie in stark disappointment.

-
BeeMan458 is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
csgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Hmm, PSA doesn't seem like it has been around long. I'm not saying PSA is like elemental designs or epik and will just close up shop, but just feel safer ordering from company that's been around longer such as HSU or SVS.

Unless, if something happens to amp or driver, then I can replace with my own stuff. But I'm not to knowledgeable on do-it-yourself.

Man, Beeman you are not good at helping people save money, LOL.
csgamer is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 09:18 PM
Advanced Member
 
wvu80's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 554
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Done Deal DR View Post

I have dual Klipsch RW12D's an am satisfied, I'd honestly buy bigger and badder subs to better compete with my RF-7 II system but even in a single family home my neighbors aren't happy as is. wink.gif I have no doubt 2 would be more than adequate in your small room as mine are in a much larger open concept living room and pump out good, fairly low bass. The only downside is that it's $200 above your budget, roughly.

If $400 was a hard cap for budget I'd probably just opt for a single, better sub. Then down the road you could always get a second. I just feel like capping yourself at $200 per puts you into a lower class of subwoofer.

Maybe buy 1 $300 RW12D and put the other $100 towards a bed? biggrin.gif

PS: What is a bed doing there? It looks like a living or dining room.

Have your secretary type that up and I'll sign it. cool.gif

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
wvu80 is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 09:23 PM
Member
 
RastaManMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 117
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
With $650, dual RW-12D's would get my vote. I'm impressed at the punch this thing packs for <$300 so much so that i'm thinking of buying a second and just storing it away for when I move to a house... Who knows when Newegg will run out of these things..
RastaManMax is offline  
Old 05-09-2013, 09:23 PM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by csgamer View Post

Man, Beeman you are not good at helping people save money, LOL.

LOL! It's a gift.

I see buying a subwoofer like a subwoofer based version of Abbott and Costello's; "Who's On First."

Every time you think you have an excellent solution, due to compromises, you always find yourself back at first base. After awhile, the circularity of the effort becomes very dizzying.

-
BeeMan458 is offline  
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off