HSU ULS-15, no love? - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 134 Old 08-31-2013, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

Dual 18-inch? Wow, what subwoofers do you own? Are they DIY?

I want to thank you and jbrown for the nice compliments.

Sure.. well I have a few subwoofers.. I like to buy ID as well as DIY. I guess my Avatar kind of gives that away though. You might notice I recommend PSA quite a bit due to I consider PSA $1 per dB/SQ quite attractive and the fact that PSA takes care of it’s customers so well albeit they don’t have a corner on customer service. As far as DIY goes there are pro’s and cons, but that would be as much as I would like to say over here. I will say that PSA is as close as I can tell in value comparing to DIY though. Tom is a ex DIY guy, so he knows our thinking and it’s conveyed in his offerings the best he can while still being able to eat imo.

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post #122 of 134 Old 08-31-2013, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

*Re-ignites the fire*

It's easy to sit here and poke holes at HSU (and even SVS) subwoofer performance per dollar, but you guys keep forgetting to factor in security that you purchased a product that will be supported in the future.

I've been on these boards for 5 years, and we've seen some good subwoofers backed by questionable companies come and go....

AV123
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... and now it seems Epik.


Who's to say that PS or Rythmik arn't the next ED? It seems easy to undercut the prices of the 'old guard' internet direct subwoofer sellers, but they never leave themselves enough profit margin to make sure they can stay around when something goes wrong (which always seems to be a bad bunch of amps) . Just today I saw a thread where a guy who owns a Epik subwoofer isn't confident enough in the company to buy a second... so his first instincts are to go to PS and Rythmik. Two companies who are younger (less than 4 years) than the warranties they offer (5 years on woofer).The thread starter is still rolling the dice. Even though I'm a poker player, i'm not willing to spend a grand on an A/V component and not have some security that if the AMP goes bad, there's someone to help me... a 10% performance increase (maybe 15% or higher, you get the point) isn't worth the piece of mind of knowing that the company I purchased from isn't going down. Granted there's no guarentee that HSU isn't going down tomorrow, but they have a better track record than most ID subwoofer companies in this regard.

Now i'm not going to sit here and tell you as a ULS-15 dual drive owner that the ULS-15 is the best home theater subwoofer ever created, but for those who want a quality product with low extension in a small(ish... relative I know) footprint it's not to be overlooked.

No, Hsu Research isn't going to be going "down" any time soon. Dr. Hsu has been is the subwoofer business for a long time (over 20 years now?). He's well respected by his peers. And Hsu makes some excellent subwoofers, and always has. The original OP wanted to know why the ULS-15 wasn't given its due.

I know first hand that the ULS-15 is a great subwoofer, especially when you consider its size. I also know I personally had a problem with the ULS-15, and so has several other people. That doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bath water. What it means is perhaps Dr. Hsu should take a look at the identical complaints and consider making a few minor adjustments. I think Dr. Hsu is a subwoofer guru, but this is his first sealed design (at least I believe it is). I would have loved to have kept the Hsu in my home, but instead I returned it and chose the PSA.

No one has a crystal ball, and yes, taking a chance on a new subwoofer company isn't the safe bet, but it was one I was willing to make (and obviously, quite a few others), mainly because the people behind PSA cut their teeth big time with SVS. But anything can happen in business, and only time will tell if my decision was a good one or not.
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post #123 of 134 Old 02-17-2014, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I think that the ULS is using a better driver. Of course, I can't say for sure without knowing the specs of either driver, neither of which are public, but just visually compare at the magnet, spider, and surrounds of each driver:
XS15 driver:

ULS-15 driver:

I'm pretty sure these drivers are not on the same level.


I'm considering purchase of a couple subs and happened on this older thread. One very significant difference between these two drivers is that the HSU unit has shorting rings and the PS unit does not. Shorting rings are copper or aluminum rings inserted around the voice coil or at the ends or both. If you look at the specifications of almost any quality subwoofer you'll notice that the driver has shorting rings as do quality drivers of any size in general. I have no idea why PS didn't include them. It is hard to see why shorting rings would be a major cost driver, but who knows. The lack of shorting rings, especially in a driver in a sealed subwoofer is pretty much a disqualifying factor for me.

Any driver has inductance. If the driver has shorting rings then this inductance doesn't change very much as the voice coil moves in the gap. Without shorting rings the inductance changes a lot which causes distortion. If you look at the distortion measurements for the PS VX15 (a ported design evidently using the same driver as shown above) at Data-Bass, you'll note that the distortion is relatively high and that it goes up with lower and higher frequencies. Rising distortion with higher frequencies is unusual in subwoofers from testing results I've seen online. This rise may be because the inductance seen by the driving signal varies with voice coil position which causes distortion. The distortion level at lower frequencies is likely affected by the same factor although port disturbances and lots of other factors are likely involved, especially as frequency drops and more air has to be moved. .

The "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook," by Vance Dickerson has information on this subject. I believe the author had drivers constructed with and without shorting rings and found much lower distortion with the rings.

Klippel, which makes loudspeaker testing systems that are used in product development and production, has good information on this. For example a poster at http://www.klippel.de/know-how/literature.htm talks about this, see figure #10 (the label says: "Figure 10: Placing the shorting ring below the gap reduces the voice coil inductance Le(x, i = 0) at negative displacement and gives an almost constant inductance." There are numerous excellent technical papers available on the Klippel site, mostly written at least in part by Wolfgang Klippel, that discuss sources of nonlinearities in loudspeakers. Shorting rings are often mentioned as a key way to fix sources of nonlinearities related to changes in inductance versus displacement. Mr. Klippel also has many published papers available on the AES website

The XBL2 technology that the HSU driver uses is also intended to reduce distortion. A Google search will find information on the technology from the company that owns the patent. It appears to be a very useful technology.

Without a port to minimize voice coil excursions at low frequencies, sealed subwoofers usually have higher distortion from say 15 Hz to 30 Hz than ported designs. HSU's attention to minimizing distortion would appear to be the correct direction for a high performance subwoofer. Distortion performance, already improved at really low frequencies, should be excellent above 30 Hz in the HSU unit. With lower group delay, a slower roll off at really low frequencies, and good performance from small boxes, sealed units have some real advantages.

The ULS is on my short list but I'm not sure what I'll actually get. I do know that for more even response I'll likely get two or four units.
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post #124 of 134 Old 02-17-2014, 06:35 PM
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Lol, this line of argument sounds familiar to me. One advantage to not using shorting rings is lots of output at the peak of your response. If you present that sub's output level as an average over a wide range, that peak can leave the impression of a lot more performance than the sub is really able to offer. So poor accuracy can be spun as a performance advantage- if you are low enough on scruples to attempt that. The good news for PSA is that clearly is not beneath them, and what's more they actually make the claim in their product page that the XS15 is 1.2 times the performer that the ULS-15 is. Talk about ballsy.
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post #125 of 134 Old 02-17-2014, 07:15 PM
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PSA is crap...buy the ULS15 and be merry. I love sitting my subs on a test bench for hours at a time playing test tones trying reveal all the fallacies the driver design has. After a couple hour session of listening for 2nd and 3rd order thd, my tinnitus fully kicks in and I wonder why the hell my drivers do not have shorting rings which supposedly results in a FR hump?? Even tho they sound great playing the pulse server scene and a wide range of music. However that is not good enough since the messiah of depicting cea2010 max burst testing tells me they are complete sheet. Oh well I guess I will pawn these 100lb boat anchors off on some tard who does not care about cea2010 testing and actually uses the subs for what they were intended for...oh thats right music and HT. Time to start building some test bench hero subs that will own everything on the planet playing sine wave test tones. smile.gif
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post #126 of 134 Old 02-18-2014, 07:10 AM
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This might be in jest, but it reads like a rant. Using a term like "tard" is offensive in a public forum and does not add to your argument. I would like to suggest that you offer a more thought-out reply if you disagree or have insight on shorting rings. It's a valid debate IMHO and a chance to learn something.

Please don't take this the wrong way -- just some friendly advice.

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post #127 of 134 Old 02-18-2014, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post

This might be in jest, but it reads like a rant. Using a term like "tard" is offensive in a public forum and does not add to your argument. I would like to suggest that you offer a more thought-out reply if you disagree or have insight on shorting rings. It's a valid debate IMHO and a chance to learn something.

Please don't take this the wrong way -- just some friendly advice.

No problem but You missed the point and no my post was not intended to be a rant or argument. smile.gif

I understand what shorting rings are and they have thier place...it does not mean a sub without them is bad. Again that was not the point to my post anyway.

It was just suppose to be a funny jest to Shady for all the going back and fourth about PSA. If you have a sense of humor then you might of found it entertaining. I thought it was a much better approach then bickering of the same ol crap. When I used the term "tard" I was refrencing myself for purchasing PSA products since they are so inferior.

Cheers!! Enjoy your HSU products!!
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post #128 of 134 Old 02-18-2014, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

No problem but You missed the point and no my post was not intended to be a rant or argument. smile.gif

I don't think I missed the point and mentioned that your reply was in jest. It just reads like a rant.
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I understand what shorting rings are and they have thier place...it does not mean a sub without them is bad. Again that was not the point to my post anyway.

I have no opinion either way at this point. Just to play devils advocate, I do know that some pretty well-respected drivers use this design:

LMS-Ultra 5400 18″ Driver

http://tcsounds.com/product/drivers/lms-ultra-5400/

PB13-Ultra

http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/ported-box/PB13-Ultra#.UwPqtoWGfIQ

In fact, it looks like most of the SVS lineup have shorting rings. Only the entry-level 1000s don't have shorting rings/sleeves listed in the Tech Specs.
Quote:
It was just suppose to be a funny jest to Shady for all the going back and fourth about PSA. If you have a sense of humor then you might of found it entertaining. I thought it was a much better approach then bickering of the same ol crap. When I used the term "tard" I was refrencing myself for purchasing PSA products since they are so inferior.

I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it and take you at your word. Just wanted to let you know that there are those that have or care about special needs people and they might take offense to your "joke" even if it wasn't the intention.
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Cheers!! Enjoy your HSU products!!

Well Cambridge Audio and Epik at the moment, but perhaps tomorrow. Thank you!

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post #129 of 134 Old 02-18-2014, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post

I don't think I missed the point and mentioned that your reply was in jest. It just reads like a rant.
I have no opinion either way at this point. Just to play devils advocate, I do know that some pretty well-respected drivers use this design:

LMS-Ultra 5400 18″ Driver

http://tcsounds.com/product/drivers/lms-ultra-5400/

PB13-Ultra

http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/ported-box/PB13-Ultra#.UwPqtoWGfIQ

In fact, it looks like most of the SVS lineup have shorting rings. Only the entry-level 1000s don't have shorting rings/sleeves listed in the Tech Specs.
I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it and take you at your word. Just wanted to let you know that there are those that have or care about special needs people and they might take offense to your "joke" even if it wasn't the intention.
Well Cambridge Audio and Epik at the moment, but perhaps tomorrow. Thank you!

Ok no prob! Most of the HSU lineup does not use shorting rings with the ULS being the exception, yet they are highly regarded. There is also several other drivers that are highly regarded that do not use them.

Here are some good reads.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/590365/driver-distortion-xbl-vs-shorting-ring
http://audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers/messages/19880.html
http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/49533-shorting-rings-why-do-we-use-them/
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post #130 of 134 Old 02-18-2014, 06:13 PM
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Most of the Hsu subs use shorting rings. I know that the VTF2, VTF3, and VTF15h do. I dunno about the STF, VTF1, and MBM-12 drivers. I'd be willing to bet that the MBM driver does since it advertises as a low inductance driver. In fact, at this level of subs, most from every serious manufacturer use shorting rings. Rythmik, SVS, Outlaw, Dayton, etc. There are some automobile subs drivers that intentionally omit shorting rings and the purpose of that is to hit huge output levels. Many of those car sub SPL competitions target 63 Hz, and therefore some of the drivers do as well.
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post #131 of 134 Old 02-18-2014, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Most of the Hsu subs use shorting rings. I know that the VTF2, VTF3, and VTF15h do. I dunno about the STF, VTF1, and MBM-12 drivers. I'd be willing to bet that the MBM driver does since it advertises as a low inductance driver. In fact, at this level of subs, most from every serious manufacturer use shorting rings. Rythmik, SVS, Outlaw, Dayton, etc. There are some automobile subs drivers that intentionally omit shorting rings and the purpose of that is to hit huge output levels. Many of those competitions target 63 Hz, and therefore some of the drivers do as well.

Oh no, basshead is wrong? Say it isn't true.
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post #132 of 134 Old 02-18-2014, 07:05 PM
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Oh no, basshead is wrong? Say it isn't true.

Thanks for your commentary!
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post #133 of 134 Old 02-18-2014, 07:44 PM
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Ok no prob! Most of the HSU lineup does not use shorting rings with the ULS being the exception, yet they are highly regarded. There is also several other drivers that are highly regarded that do not use them.

Here are some good reads.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/590365/driver-distortion-xbl-vs-shorting-ring
http://audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers/messages/19880.html
http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/49533-shorting-rings-why-do-we-use-them/

You better let Hsu know that. They're under the impression that the VTF-2 MK4, VTF-3 MK4, and the VTF-15H all have shorting rings. smile.gif
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post #134 of 134 Old 02-18-2014, 07:50 PM
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You better let Hsu know that. They're under the impression that the VTF-2 MK4, VTF-3 MK4, and the VTF-15H all have shorting rings. smile.gif

Ok I was wrong about what HSU subs have shorting rings...still was not the point of my initial post. I see where this is going, have a good evening.
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