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Old 05-16-2013, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all, I am having a house built which will have a dedicated home theater... I have some Subs I have collected over the years and plan to buy 2 more for the house... (I have 2 of each ... I know 1 sub can sometimes do the trick, but I have this thing about matched/symmetrical sets :-)

what I have is...

M+K v-125 (2)

Infinity TSS-SUB4000 (2)

What I am leaning towards buying is

BIC F-12 (2) (money is tight with the new house, so this is a good bang for the buck)


I plan to put 4 in the home theater and 2 in the living room

The home theater is 16'x26'x11'... the living room is 21x24'x14' (pretty open, vaulted ceilings)

I want the home theater to "rock" both music and movies

the living room will be just moderate level... sometime maybe a little cranked (when the wife is not home :-)

I know that I will not be satisfied until I try each brand in each location.... but what would you guys recommend as a starting point?

here are my thoughts...

M+K and Infinity in the home theater


BIC in the living room...

In other words , how would you rank these?

Thanks
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:20 AM
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What are you trying to achieve? High output? Deep infrasonic response? Flat frequency response? How many seats are you looking to cover? How do you plan to integrate the subs? Do you have any EQ capability? Do you have the ability to measure your in-room response?

Integrating and, more importantly, optimizing multiple, non-identical subwoofers can be very challenging. It's not as simple as, "Which subs are the best and which subs will work best together?" If you want to do this "right", you'll need the equipment and skill set to properly integrate whatever subs you end up using.

Once simple rule of thumb is that it's easier to integrate multiple identical subs than to mix and (mis)match non-identical subs.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

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Old 05-16-2013, 10:25 AM
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M&K V-125
- 12" driver
- 125W ??? amp
- 20-200Hz +/-2dB

Infinity TSS-SUB4000
- 12" driver
- 400W RMS amp
- 28-150Hz +/-3dB

BIC F-12
- 12" driver
- 150W RMS amp
- 25-200Hz +/-?dB

I don't understand how:
- M&K got extension to 20Hz @ -2dB with only 125W RMS on tap; and
- Infinity got extension to only 28Hz @ -3dB with 400W RMS on tap.

That said, I'd probably go with the M&K subs + the BIC subs in the HT, and the Infinity subs in the living room.

Of course, there's no reason you can't just try different configurations and go with the ones that works best for you. smile.gif
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I don't understand how:
- M&K got extension to 20Hz @ -2dB with only 125W RMS on tap; and
- Infinity got extension to only 28Hz @ -3dB with 400W RMS on tap.

Because wattage has nothing to do with extension... that is more of a factor of the woofer and the enclosure it's in. Granted none of the manufacturers will list max SPL usually.

So it could be 20Hz @ 92db and the other might be 28Hz @ 100db. These aren't actual figures, just an example.
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:17 AM
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... it could be 20Hz @ 92db and the other might be 28Hz @ 100db.
Right, that makes sense. For some strange reason, I assumed the test levels of output were more similar, which is what made me question the resulting extension numbers.
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

What are you trying to achieve? High output? Deep infrasonic response? Flat frequency response? How many seats are you looking to cover? How do you plan to integrate the subs? Do you have any EQ capability? Do you have the ability to measure your in-room response?

Integrating and, more importantly, optimizing multiple, non-identical subwoofers can be very challenging. It's not as simple as, "Which subs are the best and which subs will work best together?" If you want to do this "right", you'll need the equipment and skill set to properly integrate whatever subs you end up using.

Once simple rule of thumb is that it's easier to integrate multiple identical subs than to mix and (mis)match non-identical subs.

Craig

Thanks for the fast responses.. yeah I guess I should have mentioned... My Denon receivers will have Audyssey equalization (Audyssey32 in the living room, and Audyssey DSX in the HT)

Also, the Infinity subs come with R.A.B.O.S. .... which is an equalization tool.(but I am sure you guys may know that ;-)

The HT will have 6 seats.... I am not sure how to explain what I am looking for.... you guys on this forum have a bunch more experience than I.... but I will try to describe it...

I would like the have the subs blend in, or, be an extension of, is a better description, with the rest of the system. ... It will be about 60% movies, 40% music... I want, when watching a movie, to not notice when the subs are working, but rather , like some singers with range can do, seamlessly get down to the bass frequencies. I don't really care about :'loud" or "boomy" .... but I do want to have enough headroom where it can rattle your ribs when I want it, without distorting ( I think that is the right term)

Just so you know what the rest of the speakers are...
HT...this will have 11 speaker Audyssey DSX including the subs.

Klipsch RF-83 towers, Klipsch RC-64 Center, Klipsch - RB-51 II (DSX Highs) , Klipsch RS-62 (surround dipole), Klipsch RF1 (DSX Wides)...

I have a budget for the Denon 4520CI when I move (that is why I have to go cheaper on a sub...running out of money :-(

This receiver has 2 sub outs..

Right now , I have a Emotiva XPA-3 for the fronts and center, but may sell it if the denon can handle everything well.



The living room
Denon 4308c

PSB Image t55 towers
PSB - Image C60 center
Infinity TSS4000 surrounds (the tall skinny silver ones)


(BTW these PSB's don't get as loud as the Klipsch, but they have a really good soundstage, just in case you never heard them)

I appreciate all you guys knowledge and feedback

Cheers
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:15 PM
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After seeing what speakers you have for your theater room I wouldn't waiste money on a sub like the BIC F-12. Its a good sub for the $200 price range but you have some really nice speakers and they should be paired with good subs. Seems like you have spent alot of money on speakers and like your planning on spending a lot on a receiver. Some recommend spending 1/3 of audio budget on AVR, 1/3 on speakers and 1/3 on subs.

For your HT room I would wait and save money til you can get subs that will do the rest of your system justice... I'm thinking a pair of PSA subs would be sweet in that room.

Shawn
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

After seeing what speakers you have for your theater room I wouldn't waiste money on a sub like the BIC F-12. Its a good sub for the $200 price range but you have some really nice speakers and they should be paired with good subs. Seems like you have spent alot of money on speakers and like your planning on spending a lot on a receiver. Some recommend spending 1/3 of audio budget on AVR, 1/3 on speakers and 1/3 on subs.

For your HT room I would wait and save money til you can get subs that will do the rest of your system justice... I'm thinking a pair of PSA subs would be sweet in that room.

I understand and agree, but these speakers were accumulated over a period of years, and I have been saving for the Amp... with the new house and projector, screen, etc.etc... just won't have the funds for a while to get something really nice..

I was hoping the M+K ---infinity combo could "hold it's own" for a while... and maybe use the BIC with the PSB speakers...

I originally was going to use just the MK in the home theater and infinity in the living room, but think 4 may be required to match up to the Klipsch better.

so I gotta work with what I have.
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

After seeing what speakers you have for your theater room I wouldn't waiste money on a sub like the BIC F-12. Its a good sub for the $200 price range but you have some really nice speakers and they should be paired with good subs. Seems like you have spent alot of money on speakers and like your planning on spending a lot on a receiver. Some recommend spending 1/3 of audio budget on AVR, 1/3 on speakers and 1/3 on subs.

For your HT room I would wait and save money til you can get subs that will do the rest of your system justice... I'm thinking a pair of PSA subs would be sweet in that room.

Man... I was just looking at the PSA's and SVS's.... pretty nice!! I won't be able to afford them right away, but I think you have planted a seed that may sprout in about a year or so :-)
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:11 PM
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A budget sub just doesnt integrate with the speakers you are looking at. The Klipsch speakers have very good extension the -3 point is at 37 and the -6 is at 33hz. With a typical in room response you could probably expect 30-20khz +/- 3db. That is a lot of output coming from the towers. Most of the subs that you listed would probably have similar output to the towers with less quality. The result is reduced clarity in both music and movies with boominess becoming evident. I would just save up some more as you have done, I dont think you would happy with such a difference in quality.
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Petden View Post

A budget sub just doesnt integrate with the speakers you are looking at. The Klipsch speakers have very good extension the -3 point is at 37 and the -6 is at 33hz. With a typical in room response you could probably expect 30-20khz +/- 3db. That is a lot of output coming from the towers. Most of the subs that you listed would probably have similar output to the towers with less quality. The result is reduced clarity in both music and movies with boominess becoming evident. I would just save up some more as you have done, I dont think you would happy with such a difference in quality.

Your post has made me think.. I've got PSB T5 Towers rated 35 - 2300 +/-3db, and two Klipsch KW -100 subs at 29Hz-120Hz(+-)3dB ... as these are lower end klipsch subs, do you think I'd be better served having my crossovers set lower? I've got them at 80 all around now ( 7.2 setup all PSB ) ... Think I should drop the towers down a bit?
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:22 PM
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http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/nad-psb-ht-03-10.html

This is the only graph I was able to find regarding the T5's. I am not sure how accurate this graph is, the most accurate graph would be from inside your room. Anyway the top line is the T5 and the rest of other speakers of the same line. From the graph it shows that the average sensitivity is around 85 db with a -3 at about 75hz and -6db at 60hz. In addition to these numbers room gain needs to be factored in and that can have an affect from 3-9db in the low frequencies which would play a very large impact on how you setup your system. Next when it comes to crossovers you need to factor in the subs capabilities. With the numbers that are readily available I believe 80hz is good test point. Next option would be to try 60hz. Remember a crossover is a wall, what I mean is that your speakers will still produce sound below the crossover frequency however it will be rolled off by however much the avr's crossover roll off is. The point is to blend the towers seamlessly with the sub. Room correction software has graphs that it generates to help in the process. Look at those and see where your towers roll off in-room then adjust by what your ear prefers.
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petden View Post

http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/nad-psb-ht-03-10.html

This is the only graph I was able to find regarding the T5's. I am not sure how accurate this graph is, the most accurate graph would be from inside your room. Anyway the top line is the T5 and the rest of other speakers of the same line. From the graph it shows that the average sensitivity is around 85 db with a -3 at about 75hz and -6db at 60hz. In addition to these numbers room gain needs to be factored in and that can have an affect from 3-9db in the low frequencies which would play a very large impact on how you setup your system. Next when it comes to crossovers you need to factor in the subs capabilities. With the numbers that are readily available I believe 80hz is good test point. Next option would be to try 60hz. Remember a crossover is a wall, what I mean is that your speakers will still produce sound below the crossover frequency however it will be rolled off by however much the avr's crossover roll off is. The point is to blend the towers seamlessly with the sub. Room correction software has graphs that it generates to help in the process. Look at those and see where your towers roll off in-room then adjust by what your ear prefers.
\\

Well to be honest they sound pretty good at both 60 and 80. 80 seems to provide a tiny bit more bass, but they're pretty close, and both crossovers blend well. This is what I've got from Auddessey:



I found that under Auddessey and EQ display. In any case I don't know if that's what you were talking about, or if it's right, as according to this it's only down -2db at 20hz from the left ( on top ) and -3db at 20hz ( on bottom ) ... I guess if it sounds good at 60 or 80 it's just tinkering. I guess I inferred from your post to the other gentleman that if he had lower end subs, it might be better to have quality speakers play down a little further in the frequency spectrum. I.e. allow my fronts to play down an extra 20hz from 80 if the bass was going to be a little tighter. To be honest the bass sounds pretty good as is, both for home theater and music, but then I don't have much of a reference point from which to compare these two subs smile.gif .. In any case, thanks for the advice.

PS. That was a great link you sent, some interesting info in there - Namely the following:

It will be a listener’s choice to remove the grilles from the speakers, which results in a slightly hotter treble above 7 kHz, but if you do, you can put them back on for soundtracks that are excessively bright. It was my experience, too, that directionality was a little sharper with grilles on because of their small effect on dispersion off axis more than 30 degrees. Some listeners may prefer the slightly airier, more reflective sound with them off.

I've never heard this mentioned with respect to the grills on the image line, but might be worth playing with in the future!
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:15 AM
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So from that graph we see that the bottom speaker has slightly more bass reinforcment from the room which is why it is trying to bring down the level a bit. That is not an absolute number for frequency response rather it tells you how the software is adjusting the speakers for your room and thus gives you an idea of how your speakers deviate from flat. If you think both 80 and 60 sound good i would leave it at 80 just to make the avr's job a tab bit easier.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petden View Post

So from that graph we see that the bottom speaker has slightly more bass reinforcment from the room which is why it is trying to bring down the level a bit. That is not an absolute number for frequency response rather it tells you how the software is adjusting the speakers for your room and thus gives you an idea of how your speakers deviate from flat. If you think both 80 and 60 sound good i would leave it at 80 just to make the avr's job a tab bit easier.

Ahh so that's what the graph indicates. Very informative, thanks for the information Petden -Will leave it at 80 as per your advice!
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Petden View Post

A budget sub just doesnt integrate with the speakers you are looking at. The Klipsch speakers have very good extension the -3 point is at 37 and the -6 is at 33hz. With a typical in room response you could probably expect 30-20khz +/- 3db. That is a lot of output coming from the towers. Most of the subs that you listed would probably have similar output to the towers with less quality. The result is reduced clarity in both music and movies with boominess becoming evident. I would just save up some more as you have done, I dont think you would happy with such a difference in quality.

Yeah the more I think about it, I think I will wait until I can afford something nicer.... I will make do with 2 subs in each room for now (M+K in one and the infinity in the other, will switch them around to see what is best), and if it doesn't sound too great, it will motivate me to save up faster!

Thanks everyone
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I couldn't help myself... I have been looking around and really couldn't afford "two" of the nicer brands like PSA or SVS or HCU, or Velodyne... (like I said I have a thing for wanting 2)... with expenses for the new house, my budget is/was about $600 .... so.... I found a deal on Newegg for the Klipsch RW12D.... I got 2 of them for $559 shipped!... I have read they are good for Movies and Fair for music... at least they will match the brand of speakers I have.

I will move them into the home theater with my M+K's and move my Infinity to the living room with my PSB speakers and infinity surrounds.

The plus to getting these Klipsch, is with the Grill off they will look pretty awesome with my towers and center channel (Copper drivers)

I know these are far from the best subs out there, but I think I will like them ok (for a while) for the price paid!!




http://hometheaterreview.com/klipsch-rw-12d-powered-subwoofer-reviewed/

Thanks guys for your input and recommendations, maybe someday when I have some more coin to play with, I will come back and ask what I can upgrade to.

Problem solved (for now!!) wink.gif
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