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post #1 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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So i am wondering will a psa vx15 be enough for me to feel the bass on a tile floor in a 24x17 room with some openings? Also I will be placing it near field to help feel it without playing to loud live in a cookie cutter neighborhood and neighbors house is 10 ft apart. Will this produce the feeling without bothering the neighbors or should i consider transducers?
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post #2 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 08:39 AM
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XV15. The room is pretty large (assuming an 8' ceiling, that's at least 3,264 cu.ft.), but the XV15 reportedly has tremendous output, and by placing one nearfield, you should get a pretty good tactile sensation.

And if it doesn't, you can always add transducers...or a second XV15. wink.gifsmile.gif
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post #3 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 08:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RON82ND View Post

So i am wondering will a psa vx15 be enough for me to feel the bass on a tile floor in a 24x17 room with some openings?

Not to be discouraging but personal experience suggests three XS15's as that's a lot of room to pressurize and have impact bass.

Our room is 15'x22'x12' (cathedral ceiling) with openings into a large kitchen and an entryway that opens to a dining room and another hallway and our room didn't come alive until the addition of a third subwoofer.

(we're using 12" ported subwoofers as opposed to 15" sealed subs)

When we upgrade, it will be to three sealed 15" subs so I can fer-git about it. Why sealed, because I like the way room gain affects the frequency curve over that of ported subs. In a room your size, for impact bass, three XS15's would be awesome.
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post #4 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
So i am wondering will a psa vx15 be enough for me to feel the bass on a tile floor in a 24x17 room with some openings? Also I will be placing it near field to help feel it without playing to loud live in a cookie cutter neighborhood and neighbors house is 10 ft apart. Will this produce the feeling without bothering the neighbors or should i consider transducers?
Quote:
XV15. The room is pretty large (assuming an 8' ceiling, that's at least 3,264 cu.ft.), but XV15s reportedly have tremendous output, and by placing them nearfield you should get a pretty good tactile sensation.

If it doesn't, you can always add tactile transducers.

+1 From reading your post closely, I would not be surprised if one did the job for you, although I like Beemans approach. smile.gif

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post #5 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah can't afford 2 subs as of now and wife wouldn't allow it and have a price limit of 1000. I don't care about loudness but would rather feel it and i know that transducers would help but dont really want to go that route. So if not the xv15 then what? 3 KLIPSH RW-12DS?
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post #6 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 09:02 AM
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So if not the xv15 then what? 3 KLIPSH RW-12DS?

No I would stick with the PSA. It’s a great sub with good extension (feel) and SQ.

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post #7 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 09:08 AM
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Earn some brownie points with you wife. Then see if you can stretch your budget to $1,150 an get the XS30.

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post #8 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 09:08 AM
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Yeah can't afford 2 subs as of now and wife wouldn't allow it and have a price limit of 1000. ... So if not the xv15 then what? 3 KLIPSH RW-12DS?
If wife did allow it, I'd suggest dual SVS PB-1000s ($949, shipped).
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post #9 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

Earn some brownie points with you wife. Then see if you can stretch your budget to $1,150 an get the XS30.

Would the xs30 be that much better? I might be able to stretch for that if need be but is it really worth it primary use is for movies 90 percent of the time.
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post #10 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 09:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by RON82ND View Post

So if not the xv15 then what? 3 KLIPSH RW-12DS?

Several choices with a thousand dollar budget (we are using three RW-12d's) and that is, on sale at Newegg, buy three RW-12d's and later deal with selling or giving the RW-12d's away so as to deal with expected upgrading hassles or live with their short comings as you find you want/need deeper response; those <20Hz sound waves that you find you can't live without.

(the above purchase is fraught with hassles; loss of time and money yet offers the much desired immediate gratification)

One can buy two Rythmik, LV12R's and add a third with next years tax refund. But one may find themselves wanting more and find themselves feeding the upgrade beast.

One can buy two SVS, PB-1000's and add a third with next years tax refund. But one may find themselves wanting more and find themselves feeding the upgrade beast.

One can buy one SVS, PC-12NSD and over the next couple of tax returns, add a second and/or third subwoofer of equal, like, kind and quality.

One can buy one PSA, XS15 or XV15 (I prefer the sealed version) and over the next couple of tax returns, add a second and/or third subwoofer of equal like, kind and quality.

(the last two recommendations eliminates most need to upgrade and in my opinion, is the best expense of money)

The last two choices (as eljay suggested) allows one to make a really good choice in subwoofer, see what's what with what and, as they're able, should they want, over the next couple of years, add a second and/or third subwoofer.

(the upgrade beast is a terribly hungry beast indeed and the idea is to leapfrog the beast and get on with the show)

In the end, it's all about the Benjamins and how many one has to throw at the beast to make it go away.

As to the XS30 being better, I think not. Why, more output yes but a single XS30 will not do anything to smooth out a room's acoustical response to the subwoofer's output and you'll find yourself wishing you had purchased three lesser subs like three XS15's or you'll find yourself needing a second or third XS30 wondering why did you buy the XS30 in the first place as now you know better as you've learned more about how rooms respond to subwoofer output.

Bad news, subwoofers are the most enigmatic of the sound reproductions set due to the length of their reproduced sound waves and how they like to fight and get along with each other (cancellation/reinforcement) due to a room's acoustical response to their output.

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post #11 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 09:24 AM
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The Best $1k sub is the Hsu VTF15h. If you can only get one sub, and can only spend $1k, this is what I would get.
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post #12 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 09:32 AM
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I would like to see a direct comparison between the XV15 and the VTF-15H. But, if I had $1k to spend I would probably go with the VTF-15H as well.

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post #13 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

I would like to see a direct comparison between the XV15 and the VTF-15H. But, if I had $1k to spend I would probably go with the VTF-15H as well.

I would like to see this as well. There is a member selling one of these for $695 (used) in Southern CA, which is several hours away from where I live. I'm torn between the XV15 and the VTF-15H.

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post #14 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 11:45 AM
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BeeMan you don't have to suggest to everybody that they will need 3 subs to make them happy. For you, in your room, with 3 budget subs ok. But everybody's room is different and everyone has different expectations on what will sound good to them, and the OP is talking about getting a single sub that is leaps and bounds better than the Klipsch RW-12d. For some ppl to be happy it only takes 1 sub for others it might take 16 subs. 3 isn't always the answer for everyone..... Granted I have dual subs and I would never go back to a single but that doesn't mean that a single isn't enough for someone else. When I actally have a dedicated HT room I will either have 2 killer subs or 4 mid grade subs.

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post #15 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 11:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

BeeMan you don't have to suggest to everybody that they will need 3 subs to make them happy.


Sure I do. Why the need to chastise me for something you don't agree with? It's my opinion, and if you read what I posted, I stated they can start with one and go from there when I posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

One can buy one SVS, PC-12NSD and over the next couple of tax returns, add a second and/or third subwoofer of equal, like, kind and quality.

One can buy one PSA, XS15 or XV15 (I prefer the sealed version) and over the next couple of tax returns, add a second and/or third subwoofer of equal like, kind and quality.

(the last two recommendations eliminates most need to upgrade and in my opinion, is the best expense of money)

The last two choices (as eljay suggested) allows one to make a really good choice in subwoofer, see what's what with what and, as they're able, should they want, over the next couple of years, add a second and/or third subwoofer.

(the upgrade beast is a terribly hungry beast indeed and the idea is to leapfrog the beast and get on with the show)

In the end, it's all about the Benjamins and how many one has to throw at the beast to make it go away.

Sure reads like I completely covered in my above what you're chewing me out for in the above quoted recommendation. Despite your need to publicly chastise me, I'm sticking with my recommendations as all are good/valid recommendations.

I also believe that everybody should spend the time and money it takes to acquire and learn how to use room measuring software so they can measure and properly integrate their subwoofer purchase into their room's acoustics. I suppose I'm wrong in making this recommendation too.

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post #16 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 01:05 PM
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You'd probably be OK with an XV15 nearfield. I wouldn't bother going with the XV30 as you're not looking for extreme SPL, just tactile impact. At a given volume, you'll feel the 15 as much as the 30. Nearfield placement will definitely help with the tactile impact. The only thing that bothered me when I had my Epik placed nearfield was I could hear/feel that the sub was located to one side of me; so a movie explosion seemed to be next to me rather than on the screen in front of me. Of course you can always save up and add a second sub down the line if you want. Otherwise, the 2 SVS subs for $1000 might not be a bad idea if you place one on each side of the couch.
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post #17 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 01:44 PM
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I would go with one xv15 nearfield if you only have 1-2 seating areas to fill with even bass. more subs are needed when your trying to fill the entire room or multiple seating areas with bass. In that large of room the xv15 would be a much better option than the xs15. the xs30 would gain alot more mid bass, but may no extend lower than a xv15 in that size of room. also the xv15 would have a 4db advantage over a xs15 and .5db over a xs30 in the 15-35hz range. thats where most lfe output occurs in movie tracks. Imo your on the right track with your thinking! You can always add another xv15 down the road...once your wife sees the first sub she most likely will warm up to the idea of a second if need be.
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post #18 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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would the 2 svs subs be louder and more of a tactile feel than 1 xv15?
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post #19 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RON82ND View Post

would the 2 svs subs be louder and more of a tactile feel than 1 xv15?
No. The two SVS subs may offer a smoother frequency response, but they won't get nearly as loud or punchy as a XV15. Two Klipsch RW-12d subs might get closer though, but won't have the deep frequency output of a XV15.
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post #20 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

No. The two SVS subs may offer a smoother frequency response, but they won't get nearly as loud or punchy as a XV15. Two Klipsch RW-12d subs might get closer though, but won't have the deep frequency output of a XV15.

agreed!
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post #21 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 04:56 PM
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Has anyone combine a Klipsch RW-12D with a PSA-XV15?

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post #22 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

BeeMan you don't have to suggest to everybody that they will need 3 subs to make them happy. For you, in your room, with 3 budget subs ok. But everybody's room is different and everyone has different expectations on what will sound good to them, and the OP is talking about getting a single sub that is leaps and bounds better than the Klipsch RW-12d. For some ppl to be happy it only takes 1 sub for others it might take 16 subs. 3 isn't always the answer for everyone..... Granted I have dual subs and I would never go back to a single but that doesn't mean that a single isn't enough for someone else. When I actally have a dedicated HT room I will either have 2 killer subs or 4 mid grade subs.

I also only have a single sub, but that's only because I don't know how I would fit another os into my living room.
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post #23 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 07:26 PM
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What is the definition of "bass you can feel"?

I installed two XV15's last night. My first thought was did PSA ship the wrong product? These are pretty big, and can take the place of end tables with ease. I just can't see placing dual 30's in a room unless they are padded like ottomans,,,

My room is 4800cf (20x20x12) and fairly open to other areas. The primary seating area is a dual chaise lounge with a small connector. I've been pushing the xv15's around the room based upon furniture requirements and using a mic at the primary seating area to gague response for a set gain. I run XT32 calibration after repositioning setting SPL to 75 for each individual XV15. Adjusting phase up from 0 on either results in decreaded SPL at the preferred listening area. So far the best I can do is feel vibration in the frame of the furniture and a hear a lot of of bass. I have one at each end of the sofa, but I've tried at the walls opposing each other (about the same performance). Moving them forward I have less vibration transferred into the couch.

The scene I've been evaluating with is the chopper crash in skyfall. The bass plate made dragging these around onto and off of rugs (laid on top of carpet) a lot easier than lifting ends and repositioning furniture movers.

Downloading the reference disks to see if the issue is source material or room accoustics.

The big question for me is does chest thumping bass require a front firing sub pointed at the listening area or can downfiring ported subs do this as well?
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post #24 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 07:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cpetku View Post

What is the definition of "bass you can feel"?

The fast rise and fall of the addition of air pressure into the room...ka thump! A shock wave if you will.

What kind of graph do you have as much of the impact bass is in the 40Hz to 100Hz range?
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post #25 of 71 Old 05-21-2013, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cpetku View Post

The big question for me is does chest thumping bass require a front firing sub pointed at the listening area or can downfiring ported subs do this as well?
Subwoofers radiate omni-directionally, so it doesn't matter which way they face. 'Chest thumping' requires levels of at least 105dB at the listening position, and that requires using correct placement as well as EQ. Getting placement right can be done 'by ear', but using measuring software like REW is a lot easier and more precise. Required reading: http://www.realtraps.com/art_measuring.htm

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post #26 of 71 Old 05-22-2013, 04:26 AM
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Thanks, waiting on my DSP mic (developed for/with REW) to make measurements. It started its way over from Hong Kong two days ago...


I'll post some results once I get familiar with it.


Is there a favorite clip in the reference DVD that is known for a thump?
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Originally Posted by cpetku View Post

Is there a favorite clip in the reference DVD that is known for a thump?

My fav is the lightening sequence in "Flight of the Phoenix." Other than that, pick any explosion scene and you should be good.

Over all, I found "Cowboys and Aliens", "Battle Los Angeles" and "Unstoppable" to be good examples of what quality reproduced bass is all about.

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post #28 of 71 Old 05-22-2013, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Not to be discouraging but personal experience suggests three XS15's as that's a lot of room to pressurize and have impact bass.

Our room is 15'x22'x12' (cathedral ceiling) with openings into a large kitchen and an entryway that opens to a dining room and another hallway and our room didn't come alive until the addition of a third subwoofer.

(we're using 12" ported subwoofers as opposed to 15" sealed subs)

When we upgrade, it will be to three sealed 15" subs so I can fer-git about it. Why sealed, because I like the way room gain affects the frequency curve over that of ported subs. In a room your size, for impact bass, three XS15's would be awesome.

I have a similar layout like your room and while 3 subs would be ideal. I think it depends on the sub you have. I have a 5300cf room and my Kreisel 12012 fills the room and pressurizes fine.
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post #29 of 71 Old 05-22-2013, 06:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by asere View Post

I have a similar layout like your room and while 3 subs would be ideal. I think it depends on the sub you have. I have a 5300cf room and my Kreisel 12012 fills the room and pressurizes fine.

As you publicly take me to task, what do your measurements show to be true and accurate for not only where you sit but where everybody else sits? Is your Home Theater a listening room of one or a room of many listeners where you, the purveyor of sound, cares what others have to deal with or are you only about yourself and your listening needs and everybody else is on their own?

You may not care about what lies four feet to the right of your listening position but I do and my recommendations reflect this concern. What's happening in my wife's seat, four feet to my right, is totally different then what I experience when sitting where I like to sit and I care what the person six feet to my left has to deal with. You may not care what my wife and others have to deal with but I do.

Do you guys care what the other people have to listen to or are you all about yourself and the rest of those who sit in your Home Theater, are on their own? It reads as if many here are into a listening venue of one.

Post to me when you're ready to share the bass with the guests.

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post #30 of 71 Old 05-22-2013, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

As you publicly take me to task, what do your measurements show to be true and accurate for not only where you sit but where everybody else sits? Is your Home Theater a listening room of one or a room of many listeners where you, the purveyor of sound, cares what others have to deal with or are you only about yourself and your listening needs and everybody else is on their own?

You may not care about what lies four feet to the right of your listening position but I do and my recommendations reflect this concern. What's happening in my wife's seat, four feet to my right, is totally different then what I experience when sitting where I like to sit and I care what the person six feet to my left has to deal with. You may not care what my wife and others have to deal with but I do.

Do you guys care what the other people have to listen to or are you all about yourself and the rest of those who sit in your Home Theater, are on their own? It reads as if many here are into a listening venue of one.

Post to me when you're ready to share the bass with the guests.

-

I haven't measured but yes WE can feel the pressure in all listening areas in our room. In fact even when we walk away from the room and to the kitchen that is open to the family room we can feel the rumble and pressure. The main listening position is the same as others except if you sit close to the sub near field you feel it more but that is because you are right by it.
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