Sold BIC F12, decent upgrade wanted - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I am upgrading my entire HT setup. I just got a Denon 2113, new NHT mains and center, and now I'm looking for a sub. I'd like something smaller than the BIC, much tighter for music (lots of music), and not spend substantially more.

Initially, I considered the Klipsch RW-12d for its substantial praise at its price range. My concern is that I want the difference to be immediately noticeable from the bic, so I thought spending a bit more may get me that.

Now I'm leaning HEAVILY towards the SVS SB-1000 because its compact, sealed will hopefully provide that tight punch that I like, and SVS is awesome.

I'd have to save up for a few weeks, but will it be worth it?

My HT:
Denon AVR-2113 Receiver
Mains TBD
Surrounds TBD
Subwoofer TBD (SVS SB1000, NHT B-10d, Rythmik LV12R, Klipsch RW12-D)
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post #2 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSIMonster View Post

I am upgrading my entire HT setup. I just got a Denon 2113, new NHT mains and center, and now I'm looking for a sub. I'd like something smaller than the BIC, much tighter for music (lots of music), and not spend substantially more.

Initially, I considered the Klipsch RW-12d for its substantial praise at its price range. My concern is that I want the difference to be immediately noticeable from the bic, so I thought spending a bit more may get me that.

Now I'm leaning HEAVILY towards the SVS SB-1000. I;d have to save up for a few weeks, but will it be worth it?

What size room are you in?

Edit- The STF-2 is on sale over at HSU. It and the SVS would far surpass the Bic.

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post #3 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 06:58 AM
 
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Along with considering a SB-1000, a Rythmik, LV12R would also be considered a leapfrog to the RW12d.

One runs into problems when posting:

Quote:
I'd like something smaller than the BIC, much tighter for music (lots of music), and not spend substantially more.

---snip---

My concern is that I want the difference to be immediately noticeable from the bic, so I thought spending a bit more may get me that.

Posting the above puts the ki-bosh on recommendations as now your asking for something that, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't exist.

The PL-200 and the RW-12d are the top of the <$300.00 price point. If you want "immediately noticeable" from your current BIC, you're going have to go into the $500.00 price point which is where the SB-1000 and the LV12R reside.

-
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post #4 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Along with considering a SB-1000, a Rythmik, LV12R would also be considered a leapfrog to the RW12d.

One runs into problems when posting:
Posting the above puts the ki-bosh on recommendations as now your asking for something that, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't exist.

The PL-200 and the RW-12d are the top of the <$300.00 price point. If you want "immediately noticeable" from your current BIC, you're going have to go into the $500.00 price point which is where the SB-1000 and the LV12R reside.

-

That was my thoughts. So definitely save up is what I'm hearing for the $500 price point. I'll look into the LV12R as well. Looks to be about $80 more than the sb1000 and is ported.

My HT:
Denon AVR-2113 Receiver
Mains TBD
Surrounds TBD
Subwoofer TBD (SVS SB1000, NHT B-10d, Rythmik LV12R, Klipsch RW12-D)
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post #5 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 07:34 AM
 
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Honestly? Since you are not in a 'need it tomorrow' rush, I suggest DIY. For that same $500 you can get the components and assemble yourself. This can easily surpass the $1000 subs you will find at the big box stores. Check out http://www.parts-express.com/cat/subwoofer-system-kits/287
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post #6 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Along with considering a SB-1000, a Rythmik, LV12R would also be considered a leapfrog to the RW12d.

One runs into problems when posting:
Posting the above puts the ki-bosh on recommendations as now your asking for something that, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't exist.

The PL-200 and the RW-12d are the top of the <$300.00 price point. If you want "immediately noticeable" from your current BIC, you're going have to go into the $500.00 price point which is where the SB-1000 and the LV12R reside.

-

Beeman, the klipsch rw12-d is no longer available for 300.00. smile.gif


Op,
The LV12R would be my choice...ported subs still work well for music. I would not pass judgement based on owning a bic f12. I too initially thought after owning 2 psw505's that sealed was the best route since I listen to lots of music, but after extensive research and absorbing good advice, I went with PSA's xv15's. I will say they sound amazing for both movies and music. Now I am not pimping PSA, lots of good subs are out there...The LV12R is going to crush everything in the 550.00 price range imo.
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post #7 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 08:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Beeman, the klipsch rw12-d is no longer available for 300.00. smile.gif

First time I've seen Newegg say: "This item is currently out of stock and it may or may not be restocked."

Well kid, we had a good run see and it's time to go. So don't cry, ya knew it was going happen. tongue.gif

Unless one wants to "settle" for a PL-200, I guess they'll have to step up to something like a SB-1000 or a LV12R.

(although more pricey, the RW-12r is still available on Amazon)

My opinion? Although even more pricey then the Amazon offerings, the SVS and Rythmik offerings are a better choice over a RW-12d. Personally, having several RW-12d's, I see the proper upgrade choice to our RW-12d's to be subwoofers found in the $750.00 class of subwoofers.

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post #8 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Beeman, the klipsch rw12-d is no longer available for 300.00. smile.gif



Even if it was, I can’t imagine the RW being in the same league as the LVR though.
Quote:
Honestly? Since you are not in a 'need it tomorrow' rush, I suggest DIY. For that same $500 you can get the components and assemble yourself. This can easily surpass the $1000 subs you will find at the big box stores. Check out http://www.parts-express.com/cat/subwoofer-system-kits/287


Very true. Although those kits aren't the best a guy can do.. it’s a great starting point for DIY if a guy is interested. I think it took me all of 45 minutes to put one together. The cost of some ID company's (like PSA) makes ID all the more tempting.

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post #9 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 08:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Even if it was, I can’t imagine the RW being in the same league as the LVR though.

Just saying, I don't think anybody here is putting the LV12R in the same class as the RW-12d. Agreed, the RW-12d might like the idea of the class upgrade but in a cage match, I would expect the RW-12d to be smacked back down a class where it rightfully belongs.

We have a set of three RW-12d's and my idea of a proper upgrade would be to step up to a set of PSA, XS15's or a set of SVS, PC-12 NSD's. I like what room gain does for sealed body subwoofers over vented but ported are good.

The point of the above, when one says "immediately noticeable," they're entering the wonderful world of much more expensive....."Show me the money!"

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post #10 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Just saying, I don't think anybody here is putting the LV12R in the same class as the RW-12d. Agreed, the RW-12d might like the idea of the class upgrade but in a cage match, I would expect the RW-12d to be smacked back down a class where it rightfully belongs.

We have a set of three RW-12d's, my idea of a proper upgrade would be to step up to a set of PSA, XS15's or a set of SVS, PC-12 NSD's. I like what room gain does for sealed body subwoofers over vented but ported are good.

The point of the above, when one says "immediately noticeable," they're entering the wonderful world of much more expensive....."Show me the money!"

+1 I hear you Beeman. cool.gif

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post #11 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm still heavily leaning on the SVS SB-1000 due to the sealed design. I found it for $449.99 shipped

What benefit would spending the extra on the Rythmic have?

My HT:
Denon AVR-2113 Receiver
Mains TBD
Surrounds TBD
Subwoofer TBD (SVS SB1000, NHT B-10d, Rythmik LV12R, Klipsch RW12-D)
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post #12 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 11:52 AM
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I would go for the Rythmik FV12r over the Klipsch and SVS subs. It'll dig deeper and certainly have an output advantage over the SVS, if not the Klipsch. You might also consider the Hsu VTF2, it is just under $600 shipped with its current discount. It will be on par with the Rythmik and be a lot better than the SVS and Klipsch subs.
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post #13 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 11:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSIMonster View Post

I'm still heavily leaning on the SVS SB-1000 due to the sealed design. I found it for $449.99 shipped

What benefit would spending the extra on the Rythmic have?

In the simple, due to "Direct Servo Technology," in my opinion, if going with a single sub solution, better sound control.

(I'm a sucker for technology)

But if going with a SVS-PC12 NSD vs a PSA, XS15, vs a Rythmki, F12, in my opinion, the price/performance edge disappears but in my opinion, the positive performance edge still goes to the more expensive F12. In this case, you're getting what you pay for but hey, you got's ta have it to pay for it.
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post #14 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSIMonster View Post

I'm still heavily leaning on the SVS SB-1000 due to the sealed design. I found it for $449.99 shipped

What benefit would spending the extra on the Rythmic have?

I went with the Rythmik FV15. I can tell you Rythmik subs vented or otherwise sound excellent with music and movies. And Brian and Enrico are top notch guys. I would go for the Rythmik FV12R. You won't be sorry!

Jeff
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post #15 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

In the simple, due to "Direct Servo Technology," in my opinion, if going with a single sub solution, better sound control.

(I'm a sucker for technology)

But if going with a SVS-PC12 NSD vs a PSA, XS15, vs a Rythmki, F12, in my opinion, the price/performance edge disappears but in my opinion, the positive performance edge still goes to the more expensive F12. In this case, you're getting what you pay for but hey, you got's ta have it to pay for it.

I think that sums things up very well. http://www.rythmikaudio.com/LV12R_specs.html

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post #16 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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You guys are always trying to get me to spend more money! lol

I want this to fit under one of my end tables in the corner by the couch which is a max of 17x17x17, the SVS SB-1000 fits this criteria, which still leans me that way. I'm not hard set to this idea, but I like it

My HT:
Denon AVR-2113 Receiver
Mains TBD
Surrounds TBD
Subwoofer TBD (SVS SB1000, NHT B-10d, Rythmik LV12R, Klipsch RW12-D)
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post #17 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TSIMonster View Post

You guys are always trying to get me to spend more money! lol

I want this to fit under one of my end tables in the corner by the couch which is a max of 17x17x17, the SVS SB-1000 fits this criteria, which still leans me that way. I'm not hard set to this idea, but I like it

Well your asking bass-heads you know. We like to have a full tank of gas just to drive around the block. Seriously though.. we are kind of taking our time and working you up to the Triax http://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/triax smile.gif

Hey if you want the SVS go for it, it’s a good sub. You could also step it up just a tad and go for this. Size-wise it would fit. http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb12-nsd

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post #18 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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In my research, it seems like people really love the NSD. Any of these are much better than what I've had/heard in the past, so I think its a win win. Back when I was in car audio, I always preferred sealed enclosures for tightness and punch. So much that I hated any bandpass or ported setup. I actually still have my MTX9500 from back then and thought about trying to use it in the house, but that idea was stricken from me by these very forums many years ago, lol

My HT:
Denon AVR-2113 Receiver
Mains TBD
Surrounds TBD
Subwoofer TBD (SVS SB1000, NHT B-10d, Rythmik LV12R, Klipsch RW12-D)
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post #19 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 02:48 PM
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Car audio is not a great place to hear quality ported subwoofers. Don't judge ported subs from what you heard there.
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post #20 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSIMonster View Post

I'm still heavily leaning on the SVS SB-1000 due to the sealed design. I found it for $449.99 shipped

What benefit would spending the extra on the Rythmic have?

it all depends on what you want. if mediocre output with good sound quality is what you want then get the sb-1000. if you want great output and great sound quality get the rythmik.
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post #21 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSIMonster View Post

In my research, it seems like people really love the NSD. Any of these are much better than what I've had/heard in the past, so I think its a win win. Back when I was in car audio, I always preferred sealed enclosures for tightness and punch. So much that I hated any bandpass or ported setup. I actually still have my MTX9500 from back then and thought about trying to use it in the house, but that idea was stricken from me by these very forums many years ago, lol

I was the same way back when I was in the car audio game... I had a pair of old school kicker comp 15's in sealed 3cft boxes powered by a old school lanzar opti drive 2500. they hit 148db and extended into the single digits...i absolutley hated ported subs in cars. Home audio is a complete different animal and the two should not be compared!! Im telling you for a fact that a quality ported sub will sound as good as a sealed sub. they both have thier place...when using one or two subs in very large rooms, ported subs will shine. in a small sealed room, sealed subs work well because room gain will help the sub extend deep and maintain a flat response. in large rooms it takes twice as many sealed subs to get deep extension, but your not limited to the port tune.
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post #22 of 38 Old 05-23-2013, 06:11 PM
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How does the VTF2 compare to an LFM-1ex? VTF2 price seems pretty good right now.
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post #23 of 38 Old 05-24-2013, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSIMonster View Post

I am upgrading my entire HT setup. I just got a Denon 2113, new NHT mains and center, and now I'm looking for a sub. I'd like something smaller than the BIC, much tighter for music (lots of music), and not spend substantially more.

Initially, I considered the Klipsch RW-12d for its substantial praise at its price range. My concern is that I want the difference to be immediately noticeable from the bic, so I thought spending a bit more may get me that.

Now I'm leaning HEAVILY towards the SVS SB-1000 because its compact, sealed will hopefully provide that tight punch that I like, and SVS is awesome.

I'd have to save up for a few weeks, but will it be worth it?

I was in the same exact boat you are in two weeks ago, before upgrading to my third and hopefully final sub. I started with the bic pl-200 and then upgraded that to the rw12. It was an upgrade yes, but not a huge one so I'd suggest for you to look for something a little more capable.
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post #24 of 38 Old 05-24-2013, 04:07 AM
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How does the VTF2 compare to an LFM-1ex? VTF2 price seems pretty good right now.

The VTF2 MK4 more equally compares to the LFM-1 Plus. They both have the same tuning freq but the Plus has more power, and the VTF2 MK4 has more tuning options. The VTF3 MK4 and the LFM-1 EX are also comparable. Same Power, same tuning frequency. EX is an all downfiring design with dual 3" ports, the VTF3 MK4 has a side firing woofer and dual 4" rear firing ports. The VTF3 MK4 has more tuning options and has a slight edge cuz of the larger port diamater (less port chuffing), however I still prefer the all downfiring design.

Shawn
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post #25 of 38 Old 05-24-2013, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I started with a Polk PSW110 that was terrible. I then got the BIC F12 (also tried the V1220) and honestly, it blew me away at first. It was so much better than anything I had in the HT thus far. In my car audio days, my standards were very high, so, eventually the flaws of the BIC became more and more noticeable. So I knew an upgrade was evident. I really do want this to be a sub I keep for 5-6 years (or until I move to a new house)

I'm addicted to sniping auctions on ebay, I'm finding several HSU subs on there. What should I be looking for in the HSU lineup? VTF 2(3) -MKX?

Thanks bass-head for the advice. The room I'm dealing with is open to the kitchen, and the walls are fairly thin, so maybe I should scratch the sealed idea? I don't have the measurements off hand, but it is a decent size room with hardwood floors.

My HT:
Denon AVR-2113 Receiver
Mains TBD
Surrounds TBD
Subwoofer TBD (SVS SB1000, NHT B-10d, Rythmik LV12R, Klipsch RW12-D)
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post #26 of 38 Old 05-24-2013, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSIMonster View Post

I started with a Polk PSW110 that was terrible. I then got the BIC F12 (also tried the V1220) and honestly, it blew me away at first. It was so much better than anything I had in the HT thus far. In my car audio days, my standards were very high, so, eventually the flaws of the BIC became more and more noticeable. So I knew an upgrade was evident. I really do want this to be a sub I keep for 5-6 years (or until I move to a new house)

I'm addicted to sniping auctions on ebay, I'm finding several HSU subs on there. What should I be looking for in the HSU lineup? VTF 2(3) -MKX?

Thanks bass-head for the advice. The room I'm dealing with is open to the kitchen, and the walls are fairly thin, so maybe I should scratch the sealed idea? I don't have the measurements off hand, but it is a decent size room with hardwood floors.

no problem! For one sub setup in a large open room, ported would definately be my choice. the vtf3-mk4 would be my choice in the hsu lineup.
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post #27 of 38 Old 05-24-2013, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I can see that I'm going to have to set a budget for myself though. I like spending money, but I don't have much extra, lol!

My HT:
Denon AVR-2113 Receiver
Mains TBD
Surrounds TBD
Subwoofer TBD (SVS SB1000, NHT B-10d, Rythmik LV12R, Klipsch RW12-D)
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post #28 of 38 Old 05-24-2013, 06:02 AM
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I can see that I'm going to have to set a budget for myself though. I like spending money, but I don't have much extra, lol!

here is my recomendations based on budget.

0-400.00 - HSU STF-2

400.00-600.00- Rythmik LV12R

600.00-900.00- PSA XV15

900.00-1200.00- HSU VTF-15 or PSA XS30

1200.00-1500.00- PSA XV30F, Rythmik FV15HP, or Dual PSA XV15's
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post #29 of 38 Old 05-24-2013, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

here is my recomendations based on budget.

0-400.00 - HSU STF-2

400.00-600.00- Rythmik LV12R

600.00-900.00- PSA XV15

900.00-1200.00- HSU VTF-15 or PSA XS30

1200.00-1500.00- PSA XV30F, Rythmik FV15HP, or Dual PSA XV15's

I see 13"X13" is out the door now. smile.gif The above mentioned is a much better choices imo.

Klipsch RB-75
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post #30 of 38 Old 05-24-2013, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I see 13"X13" is out the door now. smile.gif The above mentioned is a much better choices imo.

I would definately throw the 13" x 13" out the window. In a large room open to the kitchen, a sub that small will be swallowed up like a seal swimming in a tank full of sharks.
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