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post #91 of 540 Old 06-02-2013, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post


I can almost say for a fact than all the BIC owners dont even turn the sub up half way when viewing movies at home. (or any type of tv source for that matter). A sub that costs $1000 is plainly a waste if you leave it at 3/10 volume at all times. I even leave my $200 BIC at 3/10 of the volume most of the time when vieweing movies and it sounds clear and good to me. Again, I see no point in getting a better sub woofer than a $200.00 - $300.00 price range. In other words, since "Hsu" is regarded as a well reviewed subwoofer, I wouldnt go above the entry level HSU subwoofer. Or get 2x HSU entry level subwoofer over a top of the line 1x Hsu subwoofer. Again, there is 2 subwoofer working rather than 1.

I started with a bic-pl200 and found that I had to crank that puppy up some to be happy. Six months later I upgraded to the klipsh rw-12. Six months after that I ordered an orbit shifter because clearly something was still missing even thought I had TWO inexpensive subs, which you claim is all anyone needs. Don't make blanket statements like that smile.gif
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post #92 of 540 Old 06-02-2013, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

With all due respect, home audio IS about blanket statements. Its all about whats best for your own personal ears. However, my personal experience with Sierreca Ascend 170SE's and Hsu HB1- Mk-2's were about the same as some other posters on this forum have mentioned in their experience. From what I remember, they were averge Joe's who explained their experience by the ear, (not frequencies) and they were spot on. Again, this thread is for the Average ear who dosent dedictae themselves to a home theatre build. Just a casual listener who wants to kick back and just listen to good sound.
Funny, I have quite a few "average Joe" friends who have no aspirations to put together a subwoofer system capable of deep infrasonic extension at high SPL. Nonetheless, that doesn't stop them from appreciating the capabilities of 3 Seaton Submersives fully optimized with Audyssey XT32. They all leave my theater smiling and shaking their heads. No one has ever complained of a "sub that loud that your ear strats [sic] to bleed and your chest gets pounded like your [sic] having a heartattack [sic]."

Your comments in this thread can only cause me to believe that you are naive and inexperienced. Your abuse of the English language reinforces that belief. Your ignorance is easily fixed, (at least as it concerns subwoofers), but it requires an open mind. If you're ever in Pennsylvania, please shout out to me. I'll give you a demo that will absolutely change your mind about all this.

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post #93 of 540 Old 06-02-2013, 10:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

I started with a bic-pl200 and found that I had to crank that puppy up some to be happy. Six months later I upgraded to the klipsh rw-12. Six months after that I ordered an orbit shifter because clearly something was still missing even thought I had TWO inexpensive subs, which you claim is all anyone needs. Don't make blanket statements like that smile.gif


What excatly was missing? Whyd ont you explain to a casual viewer of this thread why one needs ONE expensive subs over two good subs?
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post #94 of 540 Old 06-02-2013, 11:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Funny, I have quite a few "average Joe" friends who have no aspirations to put together a subwoofer system capable of deep infrasonic extension at high SPL. Nonetheless, that doesn't stop them from appreciating the capabilities of 3 Seaton Submersives fully optimized with Audyssey XT32. They all leave my theater smiling and shaking their heads. No one has ever complained of a "sub that loud that your ear strats [sic] to bleed and your chest gets pounded like your [sic] having a heartattack [sic]."

Your comments in this thread can only cause me to believe that you are naive and inexperienced. Your abuse of the English language reinforces that belief. Your ignorance is easily fixed, (at least as it concerns subwoofers), but it requires an open mind. If you're ever in Pennsylvania, please shout out to me. I'll give you a demo that will absolutely change your mind about all this.

Craig


Well, if you were to go back on my posts, you would clearly note that a dedicated home theatre (the real ones) are an exception. I would assume its alot bigger than 20x 20? an average living room where an average Joe sits. Yes, including furnitures and books, desks etc.

Again, I will repeat. If you can afford to spend $3000 dollars on two expensive subs, I would rather get 8 Mid level Hsu's. More subs, the better. Its common sense. More speakers, the better. That is why recievers keep upgrading to 5.1 to 7.1 to 11.1 etc.

You yourself havce couple subs. And thats completely fine. I am talking in smaller numbers. Maybe 2 or 3 good subs over 1 expensive excellent sub. Because ofcourse, subwoofer IS basically about POWER output, and also about SOUNDSTAGE evcentually.

Think of it this way, would you rather be sitting with 2 excellent speakers watching a movie or a good 5.1 system watching the same movie? With MUSIC, its different, but for home theatre and movies i'd personally go the latter route.

Although I'd like to, I'm in CA so I dont think I can demo your system.


P.S. are you an english professor or something?
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post #95 of 540 Old 06-02-2013, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

I can almost say for a fact than all the BIC owners dont even turn the sub up half way when viewing movies at home. (or any type of tv source for that matter). A sub that costs $1000 is plainly a waste if you leave it at 3/10 volume at all times. I even leave my $200 BIC at 3/10 of the volume most of the time when vieweing movies and it sounds clear and good to me.
AhHaaa! Here we have the problem revealed. This statement shows that you have no idea how to set up your subwoofer. The setting on the sub itself is immaterial. What matters is the combination of the setting on the sub and the subwoofer trim in the receiver. If you haven't coordinated the two settings, you don't have your system properly calibrated. You're likely running your sub overly "hot" and this is why it's annoying you. How did you calibrate your system?

My subs are each at about 1/4 of the full volume setting on the sub amp. The subwoofer trim in my processor is set to -11.5. These settings, even though they seem extremely low, provide full Reference Level output, and optimally calibrated bass response. That is the key to getting the bass to sound "right." Obviously, your optimal settings would be different than mine, but it seems clear that they are incorrect now.

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post #96 of 540 Old 06-02-2013, 11:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

AhHaaa! Here we have the problem revealed. This statement shows that you have no idea how to set up your subwoofer. The setting on the sub itself is immaterial. What matters is the combination of the setting on the sub and the subwoofer trim in the receiver. If you haven't coordinated the two settings, you don't have your system properly calibrated. You're likely running your sub overly "hot" and this is why it's annoying you. How did you calibrate your system?

My subs are each at about 1/4 of the full volume setting on the sub amp. The subwoofer trim in my processor is set to -11.5. These settings, even though they seem extremely low, provide full Reference Level output, and optimally calibrated bass response. That is the key to getting the bass to sound "right." Obviously, your optimal settings would be different than mine, but it seems clear that they are incorrect now.

Craig



I have a Pioneer 1121K reciever. Have the frequency on the actual sub crossover'd at max. Phase is at 0 degree. Currently have it running -5.0 from the center channel.

Your post is excatly what I'm talking about. You put it that low and also have many subs because you want to feel presence WITHOUT the annoying THUMP. This can be achieved better by having more 3 good subs over 1 excellent sub. Again, 3 subs are better than one sub that has 4x the power.

Without all the tech talk, this is common sense and logic really.
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post #97 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 01:39 AM
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I have a Pioneer 1121K reciever. Have the frequency on the actual sub crossover'd at max. Phase is at 0 degree. Currently have it running -5.0 from the center channel.

Your post is excatly what I'm talking about. You put it that low and also have many subs because you want to feel presence WITHOUT the annoying THUMP. This can be achieved better by having more 3 good subs over 1 excellent sub. Again, 3 subs are better than one sub that has 4x the power.

Without all the tech talk, this is common sense and logic really.

What do you mean it's -5 from the center channel? You mean the avr's trim level is set at 5 db less than your center channel? Or reading -5 on your avr's trim setting for the sub? Is that your own setting or what the avr decided upon? What is the gain setting on the sub? Are you changing the gain setting on the sub rather than the avr for various sources?

I still don't know what you mean when you say thump or presence here; you want your sub level matched to that of your speakers whether you run a single sub or multiple subs. Running multiple subs help even out room response and allow each sub to work less hard (i.e. provide increased overhead). Some do increase this matched level, i.e. run their subs "hot", but that's a personal choice.


ps edited for my state of insomnia

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post #98 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 05:54 AM
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Without all the tech talk, this is common sense and logic really.

Brian323, I've read all of this thread and I have to say that even as a relative newbie here (I joined in February) I have gained enough knowledge to determine that you really don't know what you are talking about. You seem to dismiss the opinions of the experts here by citing common sense and logic... well, the thing about common sense and logic is that they only really apply to situations/experiences/topics of which you have some awareness and in this case I'm afraid you really don't have the requisite level of knowledge to be providing recommendations to 95% of the posters here. Its one thing to say that YOU are happy with you BIC and that the extra benefit you would get from a $1000 sub is not worth it to YOU, but to come on here and tell others that the extra $$ are a waste and should be better spent on higher end speakers whilst citing your limited experience as validation of your argument is another thing all together. How would you feel if someone posted that you should have just picked up a $300 HTIAB because that's all you need, after all they come with 5 speakers and a subwoofer, anything more is a waste of money! Your claims (to the posters here) sound as ignorant as the above statement would sound to you. Its all about your frame of reference.

I came in here in February having only ever owned an Energy EPS-100 (2 x 6.5" woofers & 100 watts RMS) and you know what, I was reasonably happy with it. Sure there was port chuffing at higher volumes, but as long as I kept the sound at a moderate level the bass in music sounded really solid (to me) and it worked. Anyhow, when we started planning our dedicated home theater/media room I made a couple posts here and a couple of very knowledgeble posters cited my sub as an obvious weak link. Its not like everyone was recommending a pair of captivators but I was pointed towards subs that were more expensive than my original budget. I was close to buying a lot of subwoofer but instead purchased a PB-1000 thinking that a second one would be added down the road if necessary and the consensus has been (based on reviews) that the PB-1000 has the best specs of any $500 sub (excluding DIY).The home theater is not ready yet but I've been breaking in the sub in a 2.1 system in our bedroom which is a bit smaller. The energy actually overemphasized mid bass and lower mid-bass frequencies so it sounded loud but certainly not low. The PB-1000 is a different thing entirely, admittedly with it set properly I don't hear it that often, I know when its NOT THERE mind you, its just not as obviously THERE as the Energy if you know what I mean smile.gif. The knock on the BIC subs relative to more expensive offerings is that they aren't as flat and don't dig as low. And its obvious that flat response to subsonic levels is EXPENSIVE, you need a robust cabinet, heavy driver and adequate amplification and lots of tweaking to get it right and I'm sorry but the best $200 subwoofer will have compromises relative to the best $500 subwoofer, and on and on. At some point you may have diminishing returns on your incremental dollars spent but NOBODY with any kind of knowledge on the topic will say that point of diminishing returns in an average sized room is $250!.

On another related note, my wife was away at a conference so on Saturday we decided to have a movie night (with my 4 year old girl and 6 year old boy). My son is reading the Narnia books so we decided to watch voyage of the dawn treader. There is a scene in the opening minutes where a plane flies past, we really did not have the volume that loud (-25) but as the plane/sound panned from left to right there was a point (when the plane as at its closest) that you could feel the room pressurize and we felt it in our guts, now it was probably way more subtle than what other posters have felt in their home systems but the looks on my kids faces was priceless... they had me repeat the scene a few times and the coolest part was when mom got back the kids told her how neat it was that the subwoofer made their tummies rumble smile.gif. I think I'm hooked now, the PB-1000 is a good "gateway" sub lol, hopefully the upgradeitis stays away... best $500 I've spent on my system so far.
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post #99 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 06:20 AM
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It's not that Brian323 is necessarily wrong..........he just knows so much that ain't so. wink.gif

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post #100 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 06:30 AM
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It should be clear to everyone by now that Brian323 is not here to learn. He has "2 weeks of home theatre experience", or perhaps three by now, and is ready to assume the role of educator. The only real reason to continue posting in this thread is for the entertainment value in reading the semi-coherent arguments he comes up with to defend his positions...
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It should be clear to everyone by now that Brian323 is not here to learn. He has "2 weeks of home theatre experience", or perhaps three by now, and is ready to assume the role of educator. The only real reason to continue posting in this thread is for the entertainment value in reading the semi-coherent arguments he comes up with to defend his positions...

I just stumbled across this thread on the week-end and felt compelled to post because a few months ago I came here with an open mind looking for advice and several posters took the time to share their knowledge with me and help get me to the point where I could make an educated purchasing decision. I really appreciate their help. It annoyed me to see these same people provide Brian323 with sound advice only to see him respond with his semi-coherent arguments... he should have more humility and realize that these folks are miles ahead in terms of their knowledge on the topic. smile.gif
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post #102 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 06:48 AM
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Again, I will repeat. If you can afford to spend $3000 dollars on two expensive subs, I would rather get 8 Mid level Hsu's.
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Again, I see no point in getting a better sub woofer than a $200.00 - $300.00 price range. ... I wouldnt go above the entry level HSU subwoofer.
If there's no point to spending more than $200-$300 for a sub - such as an entry-level HSU sub - there's no reason to ever want to get eight mid-level HSU subs. smile.gif
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More subs, the better. Its common sense. More speakers, the better. That is why recievers keep upgrading to 5.1 to 7.1 to 11.1 etc.
Common sense missed the fact that your example contradicts your assertion: The number of speakers increases, but the number of subwoofers does not. wink.gif

It's clear that you haven't heard a well-calibrated, higher-end sub, you're not interested in better-quality bass and/or you have a limited budget. And there's nothing wrong with any of that. But it doesn't justify railing against the idea of owning better / more-expensive subs.

Just as being proud that one has Bose cubes doesn't justify railing against owing better / more-expensive speakers.


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post #103 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 07:30 AM
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Again, this thread is for the Average ear who dosent dedictae themselves to a home theatre build. Just a casual listener who wants to kick back and just listen to good sound.

Oh, okay. Bye.


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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #104 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 07:49 AM
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There is a reason why Bic owners wouldn't want to go above 50% volume. It's because Bic's become overly distorted and muddy if you use if for more than low volume listening. Trust me I know, I had a Bic F12 for over a year. I'm practically an expert here..

Anyways, there was always a point where the bass stopped sounding decent, and started sounding slow, muddy, distorted, boomy..etc. I started to realize that while I wanted more volume, I alwasy felt myself turn the volume down. I just couldn't handle it.

Then I upgraded to a real subwoofer. At first, they sounded the same. I couldn't really notice the difference in quality, and started to worry that I was wasting my time. Until I turned the volume up on each sub. My 18" HO kept it's clean output all the way to full power, as the Bic stopped sounding good at about the 1/2 way point on the volume knob (receiver's).

I was able to "feel" music and movies like I never could before. My wife and I felt actual fear when watching the plane crash scene in Flight of the Phoenix as the entire room began to pulsate and pressurize around us. The driver looked like it was about to explode out of the enclosure and fly towards us. Music has also been a joy to re-hear, as every song seems to have bass notes I never knew existed. No "thumping" from this single sub system.

OP, I think you really shouldn't limit yourself here. Don't prevent yourself from enjoying true bass nirvana after only a few listens of a few regularly recommended subs. If money is an issue, go DIY. I built my sub for under $650 and it has no problem keeping up with, or besting, the sub's you listened to.

Oh, and I'm an average guy here. I have all my gear in my apartment's living room. No dedicated home theater for me.

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post #105 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 10:41 AM
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post #106 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 01:06 PM
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What excatly was missing? Whyd ont you explain to a casual viewer of this thread why one needs ONE expensive subs over two good subs?
What was missing was both extension and spl. Why I went with one expensive sub is because I only have one spot for my sub.

I also buy in accord to my set budget. My budget this time was $3k. I ended up with a single sub for $3k. If I had room for two I'd most likely end up with two $1.5k subs.

People normally don't walk into a BMW dealer with a $50 budget in mind and walk out with a 10 year old used Kia. Not saying never, but 99% of the time, never.

One more thing, do you know what happens when I have a single bad measuring sub and I then add another bad measuring sub? I end up with two bad measuring subs! My bic at around 35hz, in my living space, dropped faster than a cement shoed gangster at the river.
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post #107 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 05:38 PM
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Brian323, I've read all of this thread and I have to say that even as a relative newbie here (I joined in February) I have gained enough knowledge to determine that you really don't know what you are talking about.

My favorite quote from this thread biggrin.gif

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post #108 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I skimmed through most of the latter posts because it was mostly flaimbait one liners. Maybe two posters out of about 13 posts responded with tech-talks. Its cool. Its somehwat expected. tongue.gif

I actually went back to Hsu today to pick-up two HB1-Mk2's and while I was there, they had 2 huge subwoofers (literally half size of a refrigirator) on my left and to my right of the seating position for demo.

I asked the sales person to demo the speakers again. And while I was demoing the speakers, I first asked him to play left side sub only, then switch it to both sides after about a minute of playing. Again, I stand correct. NO matter HOW MUCH power one sub had, when the other on the other side (with lower sub volume/ he stuck in a foam on the woofer when playing both) filled the room so much more.

With 1 subwoofer playing, it was somewhat weird because when that 1 subwoofer was playing, it filled like it was already room filled, but when the 2nd woofer played, I definately noticed that when only 1 woofer was playing, it was only 3/4 of the room that was filled. The bass was lowered when both sides were playing, and to me, the bass was alot fuller and plainly just exsitent.

This is my argument.

1. Even when you goto a SUBWOOFER company "Hsu" and ask them to demo the subwoofer for them, they dont even play it that loud. They were playing it at normal volume. All the bassheads talking here about bass hitting your chest and blah blah, felt NON of that. And the sad thing is, the sales person at Hsu dosent recommend that either.

2. 2x good subwoofer is always better than 1x. Simply because 2 is better than 1. Simply because more equipment (when it comes to audio) is better than 1.

3.2x subwoofers will always fill the room more than 1 excellent subwoofer. A subwoofer basically puts out a PUNCH and a WAVE (bass crawling your body feeling when needed) and that is their only job. To spend $1000 to get a better chest pound or a sub woofer crawl, might as well ask your neighbor to punch you on your chest instead for playing it that loud to begin with (And they will gladly do it).

4. Speakers have woofers themselves and like I said, If you are gonna get a $1000 subwoofer, get 2 $500.00 subwoofer or get 2x $250 subwoofer (well reviwed ones so it dosent bottom out) and spend the rest front speakers instead. Again, good speakers puts out good bass as well.

5. Subwoofer job is just to cover the LOW END <--- Do you get it? "LOW" end. Its not supposed to be HIGH enough to hit you on your chest or stick out or rattle your walls.

Case closed.
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post #109 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by GTA Beancounter View Post

Brian323, I've read all of this thread and I have to say that even as a relative newbie here (I joined in February) I have gained enough knowledge to determine that you really don't know what you are talking about. You seem to dismiss the opinions of the experts here by citing common sense and logic... well, the thing about common sense and logic is that they only really apply to situations/experiences/topics of which you have some awareness and in this case I'm afraid you really don't have the requisite level of knowledge to be providing recommendations to 95% of the posters here. Its one thing to say that YOU are happy with you BIC and that the extra benefit you would get from a $1000 sub is not worth it to YOU, but to come on here and tell others that the extra $$ are a waste and should be better spent on higher end speakers whilst citing your limited experience as validation of your argument is another thing all together. How would you feel if someone posted that you should have just picked up a $300 HTIAB because that's all you need, after all they come with 5 speakers and a subwoofer, anything more is a waste of money! Your claims (to the posters here) sound as ignorant as the above statement would sound to you. Its all about your frame of reference.

I came in here in February having only ever owned an Energy EPS-100 (2 x 6.5" woofers & 100 watts RMS) and you know what, I was reasonably happy with it. Sure there was port chuffing at higher volumes, but as long as I kept the sound at a moderate level the bass in music sounded really solid (to me) and it worked. Anyhow, when we started planning our dedicated home theater/media room I made a couple posts here and a couple of very knowledgeble posters cited my sub as an obvious weak link. Its not like everyone was recommending a pair of captivators but I was pointed towards subs that were more expensive than my original budget. I was close to buying a lot of subwoofer but instead purchased a PB-1000 thinking that a second one would be added down the road if necessary and the consensus has been (based on reviews) that the PB-1000 has the best specs of any $500 sub (excluding DIY).The home theater is not ready yet but I've been breaking in the sub in a 2.1 system in our bedroom which is a bit smaller. The energy actually overemphasized mid bass and lower mid-bass frequencies so it sounded loud but certainly not low. The PB-1000 is a different thing entirely, admittedly with it set properly I don't hear it that often, I know when its NOT THERE mind you, its just not as obviously THERE as the Energy if you know what I mean smile.gif. The knock on the BIC subs relative to more expensive offerings is that they aren't as flat and don't dig as low. And its obvious that flat response to subsonic levels is EXPENSIVE, you need a robust cabinet, heavy driver and adequate amplification and lots of tweaking to get it right and I'm sorry but the best $200 subwoofer will have compromises relative to the best $500 subwoofer, and on and on. At some point you may have diminishing returns on your incremental dollars spent but NOBODY with any kind of knowledge on the topic will say that point of diminishing returns in an average sized room is $250!.

On another related note, my wife was away at a conference so on Saturday we decided to have a movie night (with my 4 year old girl and 6 year old boy). My son is reading the Narnia books so we decided to watch voyage of the dawn treader. There is a scene in the opening minutes where a plane flies past, we really did not have the volume that loud (-25) but as the plane/sound panned from left to right there was a point (when the plane as at its closest) that you could feel the room pressurize and we felt it in our guts, now it was probably way more subtle than what other posters have felt in their home systems but the looks on my kids faces was priceless... they had me repeat the scene a few times and the coolest part was when mom got back the kids told her how neat it was that the subwoofer made their tummies rumble smile.gif. I think I'm hooked now, the PB-1000 is a good "gateway" sub lol, hopefully the upgradeitis stays away... best $500 I've spent on my system so far.


You took the words out of my mouth. Another poster mentioned "I dont get what you mean by presence", what I mean by sub presence is, "room pressure" due to sub. Even "sub pressure" maybe.

Thats all what sub woofer is about I think. proving "presence" or giving you that "room pressure" sort of speak. You can achieve that better by 2x subs over 1x expensive sub IMHO.
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post #110 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

I skimmed through most of the latter posts because it was mostly flaimbait one liners. Maybe two posters out of about 13 posts responded with tech-talks. Its cool. Its somehwat expected. tongue.gif

I actually went back to Hsu today to pick-up two HB1-Mk2's and while I was there, they had 2 huge subwoofers (literally half size of a refrigirator) on my left and to my right of the seating position for demo.

I asked the sales person to demo the speakers again. And while I was demoing the speakers, I first asked him to play left side sub only, then switch it to both sides after about a minute of playing. Again, I stand correct. NO matter HOW MUCH power one sub had, when the other on the other side (with lower sub volume/ he stuck in a foam on the woofer when playing both) filled the room so much more.

With 1 subwoofer playing, it was somewhat weird because when that 1 subwoofer was playing, it filled like it was already room filled, but when the 2nd woofer played, I definately noticed that when only 1 woofer was playing, it was only 3/4 of the room that was filled. The bass was lowered when both sides were playing, and to me, the bass was alot fuller and plainly just exsitent.

This is my argument.

1. Even when you goto a SUBWOOFER company "Hsu" and ask them to demo the subwoofer for them, they dont even play it that loud. They were playing it at normal volume. All the bassheads talking here about bass hitting your chest and blah blah, felt NON of that. And the sad thing is, the sales person at Hsu dosent recommend that either.

2. 2x good subwoofer is always better than 1x. Simply because 2 is better than 1. Simply because more equipment (when it comes to audio) is better than 1.

3.2x subwoofers will always fill the room more than 1 excellent subwoofer. A subwoofer basically puts out a PUNCH and a WAVE (bass crawling your body feeling when needed) and that is their only job. To spend $1000 to get a better chest pound or a sub woofer crawl, might as well ask your neighbor to punch you on your chest instead for playing it that loud to begin with (And they will gladly do it).

4. Speakers have woofers themselves and like I said, If you are gonna get a $1000 subwoofer, get 2 $500.00 subwoofer or get 2x $250 subwoofer (well reviwed ones so it dosent bottom out) and spend the rest front speakers instead. Again, good speakers puts out good bass as well.

5. Subwoofer job is just to cover the LOW END <--- Do you get it? "LOW" end. Its not supposed to be HIGH enough to hit you on your chest or stick out or rattle your walls.

Case closed.

Case appealed and decision reversed.

1) Assuming that their demo room is setup for it, I'm CERTAIN HSU would show you what a pair of ULS-15 or VTF-15Hs could do if they were certain you were ready to buy two of them and showed you knew what you were talking about.
2) 2x is not always better than one. The output of two of your BIC F12s would be swallowed up by my big living room compared to one Outlaw LFM-1 EX. They would also lack the solid 20hz extension and would have terrible SQ in comparison.
3) See (2). 2 subwoofers may be too wimpy to put out enough bass. Well, I guess if you want to listen to two distressed subwoofers.
4) A completely subjective opinion which is unsupported by good argument or evidence.
5) What does HIGH have to do with anything? Subwoofer punch comes from midbass. My subs can do it in my living room when crossed over with the speakers at 80hz, the standard general recommendation for setting up subs.

Personally, I think it's fine if you want to come in this thread and throw out wild speculation without having the background knowledge to offer sound opinions. Just DON"T DO IT to people that are asking for recommendations in other threads on AVS. Not fair to tell someone else how to spend their money when you don't know enough yet to know how little you know.

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post #111 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, I can tell you right now and the viewers of this thread that this is my personal opinion and going by the ear and common logic.

See, I dont know what you mean when you say an Outlaw LFM-1 EX will swallow (2) BIC F12. Do you mean giving you more THUMP to your chest? Or do you mean sub room pressure?

A sub woofers job is to cover the low frequencies. What that means is, its to give you that bottom presence to keep you engaged so that overall your home theatre does NOT sound THIN. That is the whole purpose of the subwoofer. It isnt suppose to hit you on your chest, or rattle your walls. (a little maybe/ and you can do that with a $200.00 BIC sub all day long).
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post #112 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 09:27 PM
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I don't know if you know this but the sub should be able to hit 115db cleanly at the listening position for movies. If you want to experience a movie how it was supposed to sound like then you need some hefty subs.


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post #113 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

Well, I can tell you right now and the viewers of this thread that this is my personal opinion and going by the ear and common logic.

See, I dont know what you mean when you say an Outlaw LFM-1 EX will swallow (2) BIC F12. Do you mean giving you more THUMP to your chest? Or do you mean sub room pressure?

No doubt that's your personal opinion, but that fact carries no weight with anyone (see my sig below).

You are the only person person posting in this thread that doesn't know what I mean by that in #2 above in my post. That's the problem.
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

A sub woofers job is to cover the low frequencies. What that means is, its to give you that bottom presence to keep you engaged so that overall your home theatre does NOT sound THIN. That is the whole purpose of the subwoofer. It isnt suppose to hit you on your chest, or rattle your walls. (a little maybe/ and you can do that with a $200.00 BIC sub all day long).

Yeah. I'm not really interested in debating subwoofers with you. As I already said, you don't know enough yet to know how little you know. People here would be glad to answer questions and help you learn, but not if you insist on continuing to argue from a position of ignorance.

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post #114 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post


If there's no point to spending more than $200-$300 for a sub - such as an entry-level HSU sub - there's no reason to ever want to get eight mid-level HSU subs. smile.gif
Common sense missed the fact that your example contradicts your assertion: The number of speakers increases, but the number of subwoofers does not. wink.gif

It's clear that you haven't heard a well-calibrated, higher-end sub, you're not interested in better-quality bass and/or you have a limited budget. And there's nothing wrong with any of that. But it doesn't justify railing against the idea of owning better / more-expensive subs.

Just as being proud that one has Bose cubes doesn't justify railing against owing better / more-expensive speakers.


This is somewhat true. A quanity of speakers increases but sub woofers does not in a reciever. Could it be really that 1 subwoofer is better than 2? Or could it be that a subwoofer is REALLY not that important to a movie? (atleast $1000 and above subs)

Again, there is so much a subwoofer does to a home theatre. It only bring 2 notes I am assuming. A thump and upping the room pressure.

In a logical standpoint, it really is that subwoofer are not that important as to speakers. Which was my initial point to begin with.
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post #115 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

What was missing was both extension and spl. Why I went with one expensive sub is because I only have one spot for my sub.

I also buy in accord to my set budget. My budget this time was $3k. I ended up with a single sub for $3k. If I had room for two I'd most likely end up with two $1.5k subs.

People normally don't walk into a BMW dealer with a $50 budget in mind and walk out with a 10 year old used Kia. Not saying never, but 99% of the time, never.

One more thing, do you know what happens when I have a single bad measuring sub and I then add another bad measuring sub? I end up with two bad measuring subs! My bic at around 35hz, in my living space, dropped faster than a cement shoed gangster at the river.


Can you provide us with a graph how much audio frequencies are played in 35 hz or below level during the WHOLE movie vieweing? I am assuming not much. To spend $3k because you didnt want your sub to bottom out in a one scene out of 10000? Man, with that money, I would spent on constructiong your house to make your room bigger and get another well reviewed cheaper sub.
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post #116 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 09:40 PM
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I can't take it any more. What the heck language do you usually speak? I'm guessing eastern europe somewhere....but maybe a hispanic language. Whoever taught you English you should get your money back from! You sometimes seem on the right track then just go totally off the reservation....

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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

I can't take it any more. What the heck language do you usually speak? I'm guessing eastern europe somewhere....but maybe a hispanic language. Whoever taught you English you should get your money back from! You sometimes seem on the right track then just go totally off the reservation....


LoL. Yes you are right. English is my second language smile.gif
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post #118 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

There is a reason why Bic owners wouldn't want to go above 50% volume. It's because Bic's become overly distorted and muddy if you use if for more than low volume listening. Trust me I know, I had a Bic F12 for over a year. I'm practically an expert here..

Anyways, there was always a point where the bass stopped sounding decent, and started sounding slow, muddy, distorted, boomy..etc. I started to realize that while I wanted more volume, I alwasy felt myself turn the volume down. I just couldn't handle it.

Then I upgraded to a real subwoofer. At first, they sounded the same. I couldn't really notice the difference in quality, and started to worry that I was wasting my time. Until I turned the volume up on each sub. My 18" HO kept it's clean output all the way to full power, as the Bic stopped sounding good at about the 1/2 way point on the volume knob (receiver's).

I was able to "feel" music and movies like I never could before. My wife and I felt actual fear when watching the plane crash scene in Flight of the Phoenix as the entire room began to pulsate and pressurize around us. The driver looked like it was about to explode out of the enclosure and fly towards us. Music has also been a joy to re-hear, as every song seems to have bass notes I never knew existed. No "thumping" from this single sub system.

OP, I think you really shouldn't limit yourself here. Don't prevent yourself from enjoying true bass nirvana after only a few listens of a few regularly recommended subs. If money is an issue, go DIY. I built my sub for under $650 and it has no problem keeping up with, or besting, the sub's you listened to.

Oh, and I'm an average guy here. I have all my gear in my apartment's living room. No dedicated home theater for me.


So in other words you can feel the sub pressure (room pressure rise from the sub) WITHOUT getting the annoying thump. What kind of Sub are you using?

BTW, the BIC-H100 kind of did that. But when you add the Aurelex Subdue under it, it takes that away completely. Now the bass is tight and clear. There really is no issue with my sub bottoming out on any scenes.
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post #119 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

I can't take it any more. What the heck language do you usually speak? I'm guessing eastern europe somewhere....but maybe a hispanic language. Whoever taught you English you should get your money back from! You sometimes seem on the right track then just go totally off the reservation....


LoL. Yes you are right. English is my second language smile.gif

I've dealt with multiple languages in my professional life for many many years. Translation is not easy. Thanks, but what is your native language?

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post #120 of 540 Old 06-03-2013, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am originally from South Korea. Trust me, I struggle with my own translations at times.cool.gif
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