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post #181 of 540 Old 06-05-2013, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

BTW, the miniDSP (some of their softwares that has all functions for all duties) are $499.00.

Are you purposely trolling?

The miniDSP is $125. When people on here say get a miniDSP, that's the model they mean. REW room correction software is free. Take measurements with a good SPL meter. Doesn't have to cost anywhere near $500.

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post #182 of 540 Old 06-05-2013, 10:30 PM
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News flash for Brain: Mini DSP is $125. Besides, I don't think you are a good candidate for using a miniDSP. You would be better off selling that Pioneer and getting a Denon with Audyssey MultEQ.


I actually read about the Audyssey MultEQ outperforming the MCACC because it has a superior room acoustics correction option. Who knows, I might go with a Denon later down the line in my personal room. For now, the speakers (HSUs) are best redcommend it with the Pioneer or Onkyo recievers and the PIoneer has outstanding video upscaling (1121K) so its a keeper. (ofcorse it is, they make the best plasmas!)

(For the Pioneer reciever owners, just switch your MCACC from Symmetry to All Adj. Align and itll room correct as well btw)


With $125.00, you can go from Ascend CBM170SE to Ascend 340SE's. Another $125.00 on top of $1000.00?

No deal here.tongue.gif:) (not yet atleast)

BTW, the miniDSP (some of their softwares that has all functions for all duties) are $499.00.

If we're talking just about eq'g your sub it's more like $152 for an unbalanced 2x4 miniDSP with appropriate software (what I have). Goes up from there if you want to say not use your MCACC and use it for all your speakers..

Mult EQ is a lower end Audyssey version, XT is better and XT32 is even better yet.

Pioneer does not make plasmas any longer but their Kuros were considered top tier. Samsung and Panasonic put out some pretty nice ones these days though....

Right now the 340SEs are $200/pair higher than the 170SEs but I think they're worth it for the additional capabilities.

Aren't Koreans supposed to be almost as cheap as Scots? smile.gif You just need to loosen up the ol' wallet....average joes always spend beyond their means, that's why credit card business is so good!

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post #183 of 540 Old 06-05-2013, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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lol tell me about it. I actually went from thinking of spending $500.00 on just AUDIO home theatre and now looking at around $2500.00 by the time I'm done with all of this smile.gif

As far as electronics go, the normal consumers in South Korea do not spend that much money on a Home Theatre. What they do spend alot on are T.V's ONLY, not much in audio.

In most average homes, they usually have 2 towers only. Not even a subwoofer. And most average homes live in apartments.Only two class live in an actual house. The very rich, and the poor. Its either one lives ina VERY EXPENSIVE house, or out in the boonies somewhere where celings is about to come down. Most are middle class there, and they all live in apertments.(I guess this somewhat explains why Home audio is overlooked in S.Korea)

Dont get me wrong, they are NOT a poor country, I figure they just do not emphasize or advertise alot in the audio section of home theatre because it dosent get sold much.

The country is so small compare to the states here, I guess that is why they started to take the route of going HIGHER UP ( very high apartment vuilding) to save space. Again, the country is so small, so the land cost is very pricey there.


It makes sense that they are like that because its usally the women that takes care of the home and kids and most of the men are out working overtime all the time. Most if not all only get Sunday's off (and most spend that time sleeping from overworking from the weekdays) so they raraely have the eneregy to get up and shop around.
And from what I know, women are NOT that into home audio.cool.gif

I myself is living in a 6,000 sq ft private house. I can turn up the sub as loud as I want. Its just that I do not see the reason behind turning up the sub this loud. And again, think that its plainly waste of money.

A poster mentioned he would have never upgraded his sub from BIC H100 if he felt the same sub waves as I did with the same sub. Maybe its the Auralex that is doing that extra work. Or maybe its the placement of my subwoofer. (didnt really care for it but its close to the front corner). Ultimately, I think he didnt play with his sub enough before buying another one.

With the Aurelex underneath, this sub is all you really need for a tv room.
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post #184 of 540 Old 06-05-2013, 11:25 PM
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You originally wrote;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian323 
With the Aurelex underneath, this sub is all you really need for a tv room.
.......and here, I corrected it for you;
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

With the Aurelex underneath, this sub is all you I really need for a tv room.

He (or she) who dies with the most HT gear doesn't win anything. They're DEAD!
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post #185 of 540 Old 06-05-2013, 11:35 PM
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Brain,

I'll make this as simple as possible: can you please check the volume on your sub? Think of it like a clock where the white line on the dial is sticking straight up means 12 o'clock. Where is the volume on your sub set? 3pm? 9am? 12 o'clock?

Then check your Pioneer (which model is it by the way). On your remote, you should see a button that reads "CH LEVEL", probably somewhere where the universal DVD functions are at. Keep pushing the button until you arrive at the volume just for the subwoofer. How close is it to "0"? Is it +7, meaning higher than zero? Or is it -7, meaning less than zero?

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post #186 of 540 Old 06-05-2013, 11:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by eNoize View Post

Brain,

I'll make this as simple as possible: can you please check the volume on your sub? Think of it like a clock where the white line on the dial is sticking straight up means 12 o'clock. Where is the volume on your sub set? 3pm? 9am? 12 o'clock?

Then check your Pioneer (which model is it by the way). On your remote, you should see a button that reads "CH LEVEL", probably somewhere where the universal DVD functions are at. Keep pushing the button until you arrive at the volume just for the subwoofer. How close is it to "0"? Is it +7, meaning higher than zero? Or is it -7, meaning less than zero?


I am running a Pioneer-1121K reciever.

I currently have my sub woofer running at - 3 on my reciever. The actual subwoofer volume knob is at about 1 (dialing from 0 - 10). Crossover frequency on the sub is set at max. On my reciever, it is set at 80hz to crossover.
Phase is at 0 degree. Have the sub about a foot from the back wall.


At this setting, I do not get the "whooshes" hitting my chest but I do feel the sub somewhat.

When I was getting the wooshes hitting my chest when the batmans motorcycle's tires were spinning, I blieve the subwoofer was at + 7 on my reciever. (all other settings were the same)

With my current setting, I do NOT get the bass hitting my chest on any movies, but I do FEEL the sub somewhat (a little) and ofcourse the anoying THUMP or out of phase bass sounds are not heard.

But with the +7 on my sub, I do get the earthquakes, the walls rattling, and the chest hitting sub waves, but ofcorse that follows with out of phase bass tones on other scenes.
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post #187 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

I am running a Pioneer-1121K reciever.

I currently have my sub woofer running at - 3 on my reciever. The actual subwoofer volume knob is at about 1 (dialing from 0 - 10). Crossover frequency on the sub is set at max. On my reciever, it is set at 80hz to crossover.
Phase is at 0 degree. Have the sub about a foot from the back wall.

Are your front Left and Right speakers set to small or large? Can you change the crossover setting on the receiver up to 100hz or 120hz?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

At this setting, I do not get the "whooshes" hitting my chest but I do feel the sub somewhat.

When I was getting the wooshes hitting my chest when the batmans motorcycle's tires were spinning, I blieve the subwoofer was at + 7 on my reciever. (all other settings were the same)

With my current setting, I do NOT get the bass hitting my chest on any movies, but I do FEEL the sub somewhat (a little) and ofcourse the anoying THUMP or out of phase bass sounds are not heard.

But with the +7 on my sub, I do get the earthquakes, the walls rattling, and the chest hitting sub waves, but ofcorse that follows with out of phase bass tones on other scenes.

Yeah, that's pretty loud. The closer you get to 0 on the receiver, the better. The fact that the annoying thump is gone means you are on the right track. After calibration, you adjust volume at the sub, not the receiver, until you are satisfied, but only a little at a time. You want more chest-hitting waves, then turn up the volume a little at the sub, not the receiver. And you can experiment with the crossover setting (80hz or 100 hz or 120hz) to see which sounds best in your room.

This is what everyone means by audio hobby being a journey. Keep working at it until you are happy with your purchase. wink.gif

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post #188 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 01:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Are your front Left and Right speakers set to small or large? Can you change the crossover setting on the receiver up to 100hz or 120hz?
Yeah, that's pretty loud. The closer you get to 0 on the receiver, the better. The fact that the annoying thump is gone means you are on the right track. After calibration, you adjust volume at the sub, not the receiver, until you are satisfied, but only a little at a time. You want more chest-hitting waves, then turn up the volume a little at the sub, not the receiver. And you can experiment with the crossover setting (80hz or 100 hz or 120hz) to see which sounds best in your room.

This is what everyone means by audio hobby being a journey. Keep working at it until you are happy with your purchase. wink.gif



My speakers are set to small.

I reclaibrated with MCACC a few times over trying to meet the 0.0 channel level on my sub. I came pretty close, +0.5 on my sub. I then manually went to my subwoofer's dial and increased a dial very slightly.

The results? It sounds alot more full and RIGHT mostly. The helicopter scene on black hawk down, when the propeller is in rotation, I can now hear the sub waves of the propellar coming from the celing. It's pretty cool actually.

Thanks a bunch for your advice.


*EDIT

After a few more minutes into the movie, again, the bass is pronounced and feels like the bass is out of phase.

Since I now know there is standard of where sub level should be (0.0 on recievr) I can somewhat say that the BIC is botttoming out (?).

I caught this when the pronounced bass was being played in the backround music, at first I thought it was just a pronounced bass coming from somewhere in the movie again, but when I raised up the overall volume a bit, I found out that it was a BOOMYNESS being overplayed of that backround music.

In other words, where the bass should be kept punchy and instant, the BIC was oveplaying it with boomyness (continous bass) so the whole time I was thinking when watching movies that it was just a pronounced bass coming from somewhere whenit was actually a backround music score that was being played. (kind of crazy how i couldnt even tell it was a music score)

I can now clearly see notice the difference somewhat since I know of the standard of where the bass channel level shold be at and also, I was only able to CATCH it now (that it was actually a music score that the BIC was trying to put out) because the sub woofer was now set at the right levels. (thanks to eNoizie).



So thereby I retract statement of what I said. I think its worthwhile to spend a fair amount of money into subs from what i imagine.


Infact, might as well go all out. Anyone reccomend a good sub that wont bottom out and can keep up its pace ACCURATELY on all sources that a movie throws at you (low as well as highs) to ALL genres of movies?


Off to Hsu in a couple weeks, might as well pick up one of theirs but please do comment on whats out there. Thanks.
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post #189 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 03:16 AM
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With the Aurelex underneath, this sub is all you really need for a tv room.
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post #190 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 05:38 AM
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Fixed it for you biggrin.gif

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post #191 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

My speakers are set to small.

I reclaibrated with MCACC a few times over trying to meet the 0.0 channel level on my sub. I came pretty close, +0.5 on my sub. I then manually went to my subwoofer's dial and increased a dial very slightly.

The results? It sounds alot more full and RIGHT mostly. The helicopter scene on black hawk down, when the propeller is in rotation, I can now hear the sub waves of the propellar coming from the celing. It's pretty cool actually.

Thanks a bunch for your advice.


*EDIT

After a few more minutes into the movie, again, the bass is pronounced and feels like the bass is out of phase.

Since I now know there is standard of where sub level should be (0.0 on recievr) I can somewhat say that the BIC is botttoming out (?).

I caught this when the pronounced bass was being played in the backround music, at first I thought it was just a pronounced bass coming from somewhere in the movie again, but when I raised up the overall volume a bit, I found out that it was a BOOMYNESS being overplayed of that backround music.

In other words, where the bass should be kept punchy and instant, the BIC was oveplaying it with boomyness (continous bass) so the whole time I was thinking when watching movies that it was just a pronounced bass coming from somewhere whenit was actually a backround music score that was being played. (kind of crazy how i couldnt even tell it was a music score)

I can now clearly see notice the difference somewhat since I know of the standard of where the bass channel level shold be at and also, I was only able to CATCH it now (that it was actually a music score that the BIC was trying to put out) because the sub woofer was now set at the right levels. (thanks to eNoizie).



So thereby I retract statement of what I said. I think its worthwhile to spend a fair amount of money into subs from what i imagine.


Infact, might as well go all out. Anyone reccomend a good sub that wont bottom out and can keep up its pace ACCURATELY on all sources that a movie throws at you (low as well as highs) to ALL genres of movies?


Off to Hsu in a couple weeks, might as well pick up one of theirs but please do comment on whats out there. Thanks.

Well, this conclusion could've been reached on page one.

How much do you want to spend?

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post #192 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 07:02 AM
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Exactly and why we posted the way we did. Some of us have been there done that and was trying to get you there without as many mistakes. I you calibrate correctly with EQ you will notice that movies with bass have more bass than cinemas and it is supposed to sound that way.
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post #193 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

My speakers are set to small.

I reclaibrated with MCACC a few times over trying to meet the 0.0 channel level on my sub. I came pretty close, +0.5 on my sub. I then manually went to my subwoofer's dial and increased a dial very slightly.

The results? It sounds alot more full and RIGHT mostly. The helicopter scene on black hawk down, when the propeller is in rotation, I can now hear the sub waves of the propellar coming from the celing. It's pretty cool actually.

Thanks a bunch for your advice.


*EDIT

After a few more minutes into the movie, again, the bass is pronounced and feels like the bass is out of phase.

Since I now know there is standard of where sub level should be (0.0 on recievr) I can somewhat say that the BIC is botttoming out (?).

I caught this when the pronounced bass was being played in the backround music, at first I thought it was just a pronounced bass coming from somewhere in the movie again, but when I raised up the overall volume a bit, I found out that it was a BOOMYNESS being overplayed of that backround music.

In other words, where the bass should be kept punchy and instant, the BIC was oveplaying it with boomyness (continous bass) so the whole time I was thinking when watching movies that it was just a pronounced bass coming from somewhere whenit was actually a backround music score that was being played. (kind of crazy how i couldnt even tell it was a music score)

I can now clearly see notice the difference somewhat since I know of the standard of where the bass channel level shold be at and also, I was only able to CATCH it now (that it was actually a music score that the BIC was trying to put out) because the sub woofer was now set at the right levels. (thanks to eNoizie).



So thereby I retract statement of what I said. I think its worthwhile to spend a fair amount of money into subs from what i imagine.


Infact, might as well go all out. Anyone reccomend a good sub that wont bottom out and can keep up its pace ACCURATELY on all sources that a movie throws at you (low as well as highs) to ALL genres of movies?


Off to Hsu in a couple weeks, might as well pick up one of theirs but please do comment on whats out there. Thanks.

So you have spent the better part of the week trying to convince folks that there is no need to spend more than 200.00 on a sub when you just proved to yourself that yes there is a point to spending more...Ignorance is bliss huh? I find exceptionally halarious that you have tried to tell members here that they are wrong when you didnt even have your sub calibrated right. LOL @ -25db. To come to this site and act like you are a expert and tell the "actual" experts they are wrong is foolish at best. I suggest taking a step back, sit down at a desk, and start doing some heavy research! At this point I would be suprised if anybody here will take you seriously....
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post #194 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

So thereby I retract statement of what I said. I think its worthwhile to spend a fair amount of money into subs from what i imagine.


Infact, might as well go all out. Anyone reccomend a good sub that wont bottom out and can keep up its pace ACCURATELY on all sources that a movie throws at you (low as well as highs) to ALL genres of movies?

Hopefully you will realize from this that you still have a lot to learn, even after this discovery. Draw on the collective knowledge of this community to learn more about HT, rather than coming up with wild generalizations based on so little experience and knowledge.

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post #195 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 08:48 AM
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Yeah, that's pretty loud. The closer you get to 0 on the receiver, the better. The fact that the annoying thump is gone means you are on the right track. After calibration, you adjust volume at the sub, not the receiver, until you are satisfied, but only a little at a time. You want more chest-hitting waves, then turn up the volume a little at the sub, not the receiver. And you can experiment with the crossover setting (80hz or 100 hz or 120hz) to see which sounds best in your room.

This is what everyone means by audio hobby being a journey. Keep working at it until you are happy with your purchase. wink.gif

That's opposite that of the generally recommended method, i.e. generally you want to control the sub from the avr, not using the gain on the sub itself. It's not only easier to do so with your remote control (especially if the control panel on the sub is hard to reach) but also more precise and easier to go back to the level set in the calibration process as many of the gain controls aren't even stepped or precisely numbered to get back to that "ideal" setting; by getting the sub close to zero on the avr's trim setting that gives you better control over range (plus and minus) of the sub.

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post #196 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 08:59 AM
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So thereby I retract statement of what I said. I think its worthwhile to spend a fair amount of money into subs from what i imagine.


Infact, might as well go all out. Anyone reccomend a good sub that wont bottom out and can keep up its pace ACCURATELY on all sources that a movie throws at you (low as well as highs) to ALL genres of movies?


Off to Hsu in a couple weeks, might as well pick up one of theirs but please do comment on whats out there. Thanks.

It all depends on what you want to spend and how likely you are to get upgradeitis. "Going all out" is fine I suppose if you have the means. In my case I just picked up what many would consider to be the best $500 (non DIY sub) out there in the PB-1000. I will be picking up a mic and REW over the next few weeks and will start my "journey" as others have called it. Today I figure my most logical upgrade for my 2700 cubic foot sealed room will be a second PB-1000 and/or antimode (or mini DSP) but I want to play with REW before investing any more dollars. Who knows, I may be shopping for a Captivator or Triad in a couple years or I may be completely happy with a pair of equalized PB-1000s, but at least I have made the purchase with the knowledge gained from AVS and my measurements/graphs.

You too can benefit a lot from this forum but YMMV, especially if you come on here and try to tell the experts they are wrong smile.gif
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post #197 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 10:16 AM
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Brian,
To me it sounds like you may have integration issues in the crossover region from your sub to the other speakers. This can cause a cancellation of the frequencies in that area and also cause a weird sort of "phase" sound. I would also hazard a guess that the acoustics of your room and placement of the sub and listening position may be producing a large peak in response. This will greatly overemphasize that band of frequencies and produce a loud one note or boomy/ thumpy sound which you have noted. Just think of it like a very large narrow band EQ boost. If you take the time to look into some of the affordable measurement software like REW and inexpensive equipment you could likely make some large improvements to your sound with the speakers that you already have.
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post #198 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eNoize View Post

Are your front Left and Right speakers set to small or large? Can you change the crossover setting on the receiver up to 100hz or 120hz?
Yeah, that's pretty loud. The closer you get to 0 on the receiver, the better. The fact that the annoying thump is gone means you are on the right track. After calibration, you adjust volume at the sub, not the receiver,

After calibration, you shouldn't adjust the volume at all. You calibrated for a reason. Why would you change it afterwards? But if you simply *must* adjust it, then it's far easier to do in the receiver than on the sub. It's also easier to go back to where you started, (the properly calibrated level), by adjusting in the receiver than on the sub.
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...until you are satisfied, but only a little at a time. You want more chest-hitting waves, then turn up the volume a little at the sub, not the receiver.
See above.

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post #199 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 11:45 AM
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After calibration, you shouldn't adjust the volume at all. You calibrated for a reason. Why would you change it afterwards? But if you simply *must* adjust it, then it's far easier to do in the receiver than on the sub. It's also easier to go back to where you started, (the properly calibrated level), by adjusting in the receiver than on the sub.

I agree completely; you really shouldn't after calibration. But as Brian has just proven, the preferred method did not work with his particular situation using MCACC. He's more satisfied and is finally coming around to understanding why spending more on your sub is worthwhile. That's the only reason for my suggesting he try it. Not as a rule, just try it. smile.gif He retracted his earlier statements didn't he. tongue.gif

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post #200 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian323 View Post

So thereby I retract statement of what I said. I think its worthwhile to spend a fair amount of money into subs from what i imagine.


Infact, might as well go all out. Anyone reccomend a good sub that wont bottom out and can keep up its pace ACCURATELY on all sources that a movie throws at you (low as well as highs) to ALL genres of movies?


Off to Hsu in a couple weeks, might as well pick up one of theirs but please do comment on whats out there. Thanks.

And Brian, instead of spending more money on the sub right away, do as Ricci suggests. Continue experimenting with what you have, the placement of your sub and room acoustics. Learn how to integrate your sub with the rest of the system. Play with where both the volume on your receiver and the gain on the sub make you happy and give you the best results in your room. You might find that raising the gain on the sub while the volume on the receiver is at -3 or -4 can give you the sort of bass you're looking for.

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post #201 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 12:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eNoize View Post

Continue experimenting with what you have, the placement of your sub and room acoustics. Learn how to integrate your sub with the rest of the system. Play with where both the volume on your receiver and the gain on the sub make you happy and give you the best results in your room. You might find that raising the gain on the sub while the volume on the receiver is at -3 or -4 can give you the sort of bass you're looking for.

...+75 and then some.

Do not pass go until taking the time to acquire room measuring capability and learning how to read a graph and find ways to improve the graph your current system has blessed you with.

"Yeah Baby!"

And this is a subwoofer system that hasn't been dialed in.

rolleyes.gif

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post #202 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 03:19 PM
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I agree completely; you really shouldn't after calibration. But as Brian has just proven, the preferred method did not work with his particular situation using MCACC. He's more satisfied and is finally coming around to understanding why spending more on your sub is worthwhile. That's the only reason for my suggesting he try it. Not as a rule, just try it. smile.gif He retracted his earlier statements didn't he. tongue.gif
I've been saying all along this was a setup problem. Nonetheless, we still don't know that "...the preferred method did not work with his particular situation using MCACC" because he never told us how he ran MCACC. With an inexperienced poster, who has obviously screwed up the setup of his system, you can't assume he ran MCACC correctly. There is simply no way MCACC would set his sub 20 to 25 dB lower than his speakers. He must have done something wrong in running MCACC, or with his measurements. The fact that his system is "better" doesn't mean it's "correct."

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And Brian, instead of spending more money on the sub right away, do as Ricci suggests. Continue experimenting with what you have, the placement of your sub and room acoustics. Learn how to integrate your sub with the rest of the system. Play with where both the volume on your receiver and the gain on the sub make you happy and give you the best results in your room. You might find that raising the gain on the sub while the volume on the receiver is at -3 or -4 can give you the sort of bass you're looking for.

Why do you think it's better to raise the gain on the subwoofer instead of in the receiver. If he has the subwoofer trim at -3, he could just raise it to 0 and get *exactly* 3 dB of increase. With the variable gain control on the sub, he won't know how much of an increase he's added and it will be more difficult to go back to the exact previous setting. With the subwoofer trim, he can just revert back to -3 and he's right back to his properly calibrated level.

Brian, there is nothing "magical" about getting the subwoofer trim to 0. The key is to get the subwoofer CALIBRATED properly with your speakers. The combination of the subwoofer gain control and the trim in the receiver that gets you calibrated is all that's important. Having said that, I don't like to set the subwoofer trim to a + number. It is possible to send too strong a signal to the subwoofer amp and overdrive the subwoofer amp input. That will cause distortion. Different amps will have different input sensitivities, and some will be overdriven more easily than others. I don't know the input sensitivity of your BIC amp, but you should be fine if you keep the subwoofer trim at 0 or a - number. (When I set up a system, I shoot for a subwoofer trim of about -6. That way, if I do want to experiement and turn the sub up, I have 6 dB of "play" before I get to + numbers.)

I will ask again, please post the method you used to run MCACC, the resulting trim and distance settings BEFORE you make any adjustments, and how you took the measurements that showed the 20 to 25 dB disparity between the speakers and subs.

Craig

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post #203 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 03:25 PM
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^agreed! From my research it is better to calibrate the sub slightly hot so the avr trims -5db or so, then you can add it back in the avr if you want to run hot. The key is to not add + gain in the avr as it can clip the signal and cause distortion there for reducing headroom.
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post #204 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

After calibration, you shouldn't adjust the volume at all. You calibrated for a reason. Why would you change it afterwards? But if you simply *must* adjust it, then it's far easier to do in the receiver than on the sub. It's also easier to go back to where you started, (the properly calibrated level), by adjusting in the receiver than on the sub.

That is based on the assumption that after calibration, the subwoofer produces a fairly flat response in the room. However, when the sub response is not flat in a room, much like with a camera meter which is gray scale weighted for exposure, one might choose to over or under adjust the exposure (calibration) to subdue or bring out certain frequencies/certain parts of an image. Suppose a sub is peaky from 20 to 35hz and the midbass has some valleys. With that Pioneer, the calibration equipment is only estimating an average and not doing anything about the peak. So midbass could be very subdued. Some listeners might preferred to have the peak a little louder to bring up the midbass response where it should be.

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post #205 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

That is based on the assumption that after calibration, the subwoofer produces a fairly flat response in the room. However, when the sub response is not flat in a room, much like with a camera meter which is gray scale weighted for exposure, one might choose to over or under adjust the exposure (calibration) to subdue or bring out certain frequencies/certain parts of an image. Suppose a sub is peaky from 20 to 35hz and the midbass has some valleys. With that Pioneer, the calibration equipment is only estimating an average and not doing anything about the peak. So midbass could be very subdued. Some listeners might preferred to have the peak a little louder to bring up the midbass response where it should be.
Then the "solution" is to fix the FR, not adjust the calibration. MCACC doesn't EQ the sub, but the FR can still be adjusted with subwoofer placement and listening position adjustment.

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post #206 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Then the "solution" is to fix the FR, not adjust the calibration. MCACC doesn't EQ the sub, but the FR can still be adjusted with subwoofer placement and listening position adjustment.

You are still thinking like someone who has a dedicated HT room with all the necessary equipment, an optimum situation. In a living HT setup, sometimes placements options are limited and no placement option is going to fix the problem with FR. One often has to make do with a limited budget, placement options, and the equipment one has.

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post #207 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Why do you think it's better to raise the gain on the subwoofer instead of in the receiver. If he has the subwoofer trim at -3, he could just raise it to 0 and get *exactly* 3 dB of increase.

No, you're misunderstanding what I'm writing. What I'm actually trying to suggest to him is exactly what you are writing here:
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Brian, there is nothing "magical" about getting the subwoofer trim to 0. The key is to get the subwoofer CALIBRATED properly with your speakers. The combination of the subwoofer gain control and the trim in the receiver that gets you calibrated is all that's important. Having said that, I don't like to set the subwoofer trim to a + number. It is possible to send too strong a signal to the subwoofer amp and overdrive the subwoofer amp input. That will cause distortion. Different amps will have different input sensitivities, and some will be overdriven more easily than others. I don't know the input sensitivity of your BIC amp, but you should be fine if you keep the subwoofer trim at 0 or a - number. (When I set up a system, I shoot for a subwoofer trim of about -6. That way, if I do want to experiement and turn the sub up, I have 6 dB of "play" before I get to + numbers.)

The problem is I think you're forgetting he's a complete noob. He's only NOW learning much of the terminology you are using here. What you just explained, which the rest of us will clearly understand without a problem, is precisely what I'm attempting to explain to him is the most basic, straightforward manner possible -- from the point of view of a noob. You are not suggesting to him anything different than I am, but expect him to immediately know what you are saying, which is why everyone seems to be butting heads with Brian. I'm taking it much slower with him, letting him learn on his own and at a pace he will appreciate. At the moment, he's finally understanding the relationship between amp gain and avr trim, which he's admitted to. Again, craig, I'm not telling him increasing volume as a rule, but allowing him to discover these things on his own.

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post #208 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

You are still thinking like someone who has a dedicated HT room with all the necessary equipment, an optimum situation.
Guilty as charged. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

In a living HT setup, sometimes placements options are limited and no placement option is going to fix the problem with FR.
We don't know that is the case for Brian. He hasn't mentioned a single thing about subwoofer placement, or whether he has other placement options. He also hasn't mentioned where his LP is placed in the room and relative to the sub, or whether he has options for moving the LP. If he has options, they should be explored BEFORE adjusting his calibration.
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One often has to make do with a limited budget, placement options, and the equipment one has.
Then let's help him optimize what he has. IMO.adjusting away from the proper calibration should be well down the list of "tweaks" we should be recommending.

Craig

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post #209 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

You are still thinking like someone who has a dedicated HT room with all the necessary equipment, an optimum situation.
Guilty as charged. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

In a living HT setup, sometimes placements options are limited and no placement option is going to fix the problem with FR.
We don't know that is the case for Brian. He hasn't mentioned a single thing about subwoofer placement, or whether he has other placement options. He also hasn't mentioned where his LP is placed in the room and relative to the sub, or whether he has options for moving the LP. If he has options, they should be explored BEFORE adjusting his calibration.
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

One often has to make do with a limited budget, placement options, and the equipment one has.
Then let's help him optimize what he has. IMO.adjusting away from the proper calibration should be well down the list of "tweaks" we should be recommending.

Craig

A few posts back he said this about placement of the sub: Have the sub about a foot from the back wall.

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post #210 of 540 Old 06-06-2013, 05:16 PM
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A few posts back he said this about placement of the sub: Have the sub about a foot from the back wall.
That doesn't tell us much. How close is the sub to the corner? Is it midwall? 1/3 wall? Why a foot away? Why not closer to the wall? Where is the LP in relation to the sub and back wall? Etc.

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