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Old 06-05-2013, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm currently using a Velodyne DD12 that I'm borrowing from my brother while he builds a new theater. It sounds/feels really good, but I think my room (19x22) could really benefit from 2 subs.

So I'm looking at getting another sub and was drawn to the SVS SB13-ULTRA. But then I came across the VTF-15H DualDrive Package (which would get me 2 subs for about he same price and would set me up from when I lose the DD12.

Any thoughts on how HSU stacks up to SVS and whether the SB13 is considerably better than the VTF-15H?

Any recommendations in the ~$2k range would be really appreciated!
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:23 AM
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The Hsu package would be significantly better. Way more headroom, better room response, less localizable. It would also be better for the sub's reliability too, since two big ported subs will be just breezing by at a point that a single sealed sub might be struggling. I would definitely go for the Hsus.
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:32 AM
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+1

May want to take a look at dual PSA XV-15s. I say this cuz they are said to be very good and would save you some cash over the HSU. But the HSU is considered to be about the best $1k sub.

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Old 06-05-2013, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The Hsu package would be significantly better. Way more headroom, better room response, less localizable. It would also be better for the sub's reliability too, since two big ported subs will be just breezing by at a point that a single sealed sub might be struggling. I would definitely go for the Hsus.

+1 Heck yeah! Sealed to sealed, I see the ULS-15 package is on sale also. http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15Dual.html

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Old 06-05-2013, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the quick response and thoughtful feedback!

Y'all have clearly identified a core question that I had glossed over... Ported or Sealed?

What do folks think about the sound quality generally between the 2?

And if there are strong advantages to sealed, what are the thoughts on the ULS-15 DualDrive Packages vs the SVS SB-13? (It would be paired with the DD12 for now and perhaps another SB-13 later down the line.

FYI, use is about 70% movies 30% hi-rez music (SACD, HD Tracks, etc)
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:46 AM
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OP if you want dual sealed subs look at dual PSA XS30 for $2,183 shipped. As those would destroy the SVS or HSU sealed subs.

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Old 06-05-2013, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

OP if you want dual sealed subs look at dual PSA XS30 for $2,183 shipped. As those would destroy the SVS or HSU sealed subs.

I wouldn't say they'd destroy the ULS-15 or SB13 but I would agree that the XS30 would be a better sub over those two.
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:55 AM
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FYI, use is about 70% movies 30% hi-rez music (SACD, HD Tracks, etc)




I would go ported considering you’re 70% movies. Something to know is that a good ported SW will do a very nice job with music or movies imo. The ported option will give you much more headroom in the lower frequencies and SPL. With dual admittedly you might not need it (depends on room and listening habits) but it’s there to be had.

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Old 06-05-2013, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Longhorn69 View Post

Thanks for the quick response and thoughtful feedback!

Y'all have clearly identified a core question that I had glossed over... Ported or Sealed?

What do folks think about the sound quality generally between the 2?

And if there are strong advantages to sealed, what are the thoughts on the ULS-15 DualDrive Packages vs the SVS SB-13? (It would be paired with the DD12 for now and perhaps another SB-13 later down the line.

FYI, use is about 70% movies 30% hi-rez music (SACD, HD Tracks, etc)

Sealed has some advantages, such as no overhang from the ports, but probably not a lot of people could really tell the difference from a well-designed ported sub. A lot of guys exaggerate the difference around here. It does affect the sound character but not nearly as much as simple placement. Where you place the sub is going to have a much greater impact on the sound quality.

As for the ULS-15 vs the SB13, I would only go for the SB13 if you prefer a gloss black finish.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:25 AM
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Get dual PSA XV-15s. Since you are more heavy on the movies, I would highly recommend the XV-15s. If you want sealed, go for the XS-30s. I do not think there is anything HSU or SVS has that can compete for the price. I may be wrong but from what I have seen, the XV-15 outperforms the VTF-15H and it is $200 cheaper.

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Old 06-06-2013, 06:26 AM
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Take a look at this chart, pretty interesting.

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0153/1797/files/Comparison-Table_XV15.png?690

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Old 06-06-2013, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Adam.C View Post

Take a look at this chart, pretty interesting.

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0153/1797/files/Comparison-Table_XV15.png?690

Nice chart! Where did you come up with that?

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Old 06-06-2013, 06:56 AM
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^^^ PSA's website.

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Old 06-06-2013, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Nice chart! Where did you come up with that?

Yup that is from PSA's site. They now are also offering different finishes to their subs in case you want something a little more classy looking.

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Old 06-06-2013, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

^^^ PSA's website.
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Yup that is from PSA's site. They now are also offering different finishes to their subs in case you want something a little more classy looking.












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Hu!.. never noticed it. It's a keeper though.

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Old 06-06-2013, 07:48 AM
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Get dual PSA XV-15s. Since you are more heavy on the movies, I would highly recommend the XV-15s. If you want sealed, go for the XS-30s. I do not think there is anything HSU or SVS has that can compete for the price. I may be wrong but from what I have seen, the XV-15 outperforms the VTF-15H and it is $200 cheaper.

Yea xv15's are nice subs for the money...I am really happy with both of mine. I did some max spl testing yesterday with my spl meter and was hitting 122-123db routinely during heavy bass tracks at my LP. I was previously hitting 132db @ 30hz prior to eqing with a mini dsp, but that was from a massive room gain peak of 10db @ 30hz....it sounds much better flattened out. Point is no matter what sub you get, make sure to get some measurement gear and a eq device.

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Old 06-06-2013, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

^^^ PSA's website.

I'm not surprised. That is a pretty slanted view of the data, especially regarding the CEA measurements. The chart also makes it look like the XV15 is more feature rich than the other subs, when the opposite is true. Some of the data rows are pretty irrelevant as well, like continuous phase control and 'green amplifier' and group delay at 25 hz- none of that stuff matters. That chart was made to show the XV15 in the most favorable possible light. It looks like most of that data was taken from data-bass.com, except for the VTF15h. I wouldn't be too comfortable mixing different data sets, even CEA data sets. For instance, S&V measured and averaged the VTF15h's ultra low bass at 119.2 dB and low bass at 123.2 dB, so, using PSA's comparison standards, Hsu could release a similar comparison chart showing the VTF15h completely destroying the XV15.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:16 PM
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I'm not surprised. That is a pretty slanted view of the data, especially regarding the CEA measurements. The chart also makes it look like the XV15 is more feature rich than the other subs, when the opposite is true. Some of the data rows are pretty irrelevant as well, like continuous phase control and 'green amplifier' and group delay at 25 hz- none of that stuff matters. That chart was made to show the XV15 in the most favorable possible light. It looks like most of that data was taken from data-bass.com, except for the VTF15h. I wouldn't be too comfortable mixing different data sets, even CEA data sets. For instance, S&V measured and averaged the VTF15h's ultra low bass at 119.2 dB and low bass at 123.2 dB, so, using PSA's comparison standards, Hsu could release a similar comparison chart showing the VTF15h completely destroying the XV15.

Now shady, you ought to know they would never do that! biggrin.gif

Edit> Do you remember back in the day it was basically SVS and HSU? That used to be a hoot!

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Old 06-06-2013, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I'm not surprised. That is a pretty slanted view of the data, especially regarding the CEA measurements. The chart also makes it look like the XV15 is more feature rich than the other subs, when the opposite is true. Some of the data rows are pretty irrelevant as well, like continuous phase control and 'green amplifier' and group delay at 25 hz- none of that stuff matters. That chart was made to show the XV15 in the most favorable possible light. It looks like most of that data was taken from data-bass.com, except for the VTF15h. I wouldn't be too comfortable mixing different data sets, even CEA data sets. For instance, S&V measured and averaged the VTF15h's ultra low bass at 119.2 dB and low bass at 123.2 dB, so, using PSA's comparison standards, Hsu could release a similar comparison chart showing the VTF15h completely destroying the XV15.

I don't believe PSA just made up the numbers for the VTF-15H, they would of had to gotten them from somewhere shadyj.

Take away the "green amp" thing is there something from this chart that PSA is lying about?
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:37 PM
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I don't believe PSA just made up the numbers for the VTF-15H, they would of had to gotten them from somewhere shadyj.
They got those numbers from Audioholic's original review of the VTF15h. Every other measurement was taken from Data-bass.com, but it looks like PSA might have used their own in-house measurements for the XV15. If that is the figure they are using, by that standard, Hsu could claim an even greater performance delta than by using the S&V numbers.
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Take away the "green amp" thing is there something from this chart that PSA is lying about?

The VTF15h's amp power rating is an error, but there isn't anything that looks like a straight up lie in that chart, however it is designed to give an inaccurate impression. Probably the most deceptive part about the chart is mixing various CEA data sets without even mentioning that. You can't blame PSA too much, as they are trying to sell subs so of course they will frame that comparison chart to make their sub look like the best. A more informed look at the actual measurements doesn't paint as flattering of a view for their sub though.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

They got those numbers from Audioholic's original review of the VTF15h. Every other measurement was taken from Data-bass.com, but it looks like PSA might have used their own in-house measurements for the XV15. If that is the figure they are using, by that standard, Hsu could claim an even greater performance delta than by using the S&V numbers.
The VTF15h's amp power rating is an error, but there isn't anything that looks like a straight up lie in that chart, however it is designed to give an inaccurate impression. Probably the most deceptive part about the chart is mixing various CEA data sets without even mentioning that. You can't blame PSA too much, as they are trying to sell subs so of course they will frame that comparison chart to make their sub look like the best. A more informed look at the actual measurements doesn't paint as flattering of a view for their sub though.

They probably used they own numbers for the chart because I believe Josh Ricci himself said that he never bothered to take the bottom plate off of the XV15 and fire it directly at the mic like he had with other downward firing subs that he's tested, and that would have effected the output numbers by 1-1.5db across the entire frequency range.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:48 PM
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Now shady, you ought to know they would never do that! biggrin.gif

Edit> Do you remember back in the day it was basically SVS and HSU? That used to be a hoot!

I remember those days, I wouldn't call them good old days though, there wasn't nearly as much choice. It was like choosing between Coke and Pepsi. With Rythmik and PSA, there is a lot more choice now, which is great for us. At the higher level you have Seaten, JTR, Funk, etc so things are much better at the $2k plus range as well.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:05 PM
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One thing that is for sure since purchasing a VTF-15H my subwoofer needs and wants have more than satisfied.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:53 PM
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I remember those days, I wouldn't call them good old days though, there wasn't nearly as much choice. It was like choosing between Coke and Pepsi. With Rythmik and PSA, there is a lot more choice now, which is great for us. At the higher level you have Seaten, JTR, Funk, etc so things are much better at the $2k plus range as well.

Oh I think I would but my criteria isn't limited to how many SW ID company's there are or was. I like choice as much as anybody, thus participating in DIY also. I was just reminiscing on some of the personalities is all, and what ensued. Coke or Pepsi?.. I like the in-store brands as well (as long as they have caffeine).. choice is always a good thing.

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Old 06-06-2013, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Adam.C View Post

Get dual PSA XV-15s. Since you are more heavy on the movies, I would highly recommend the XV-15s. If you want sealed, go for the XS-30s. I do not think there is anything HSU or SVS has that can compete for the price. I may be wrong but from what I have seen, the XV-15 outperforms the VTF-15H and it is $200 cheaper.
That chart is nothing more than a marketing scheme as the 15h has more output across the board than the xv15, more tuning options, more style, heavier and much more stout and backed by a company that has been making subs and been in business for over 20 years. When spending close to a grand the extra $200 is well deserved IMO.

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Old 06-07-2013, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

They probably used they own numbers for the chart because I believe Josh Ricci himself said that he never bothered to take the bottom plate off of the XV15 and fire it directly at the mic like he had with other downward firing subs that he's tested, and that would have effected the output numbers by 1-1.5db across the entire frequency range.

We are using the (well documented) independent third party 2010-CEA data for all of the output numbers on the chart. Anyone can find this data at audioholics or data-bass. All of the data is referenced to the same "2 meter, rms, woofer facing the mic" measurement method. This provides the most level "playing field" for all products. If you want to handicap the XV15 for some reason rolleyes.gif then you can choose to ignore what the reviewer stated here (goto post 9)

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/subwoofers/82624-power-sound-audio-xv-15-subwoofer-review.html


If you want to compare the data on the chart to 2010-CEA peak numbers(that some manufacturers use)....you need to add 9dB to all of the data.


We may add other Power Sound Audio products in the future using our own 2010-CEA measurements but we will be sure to note that on the chart. Our own XV15 measurements were within a fraction of Josh Ricci's and there is no reason for me to believe our other products wouldn't be the same.

I'l note the error on the wattage for the vtf15.

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Old 06-07-2013, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I don't believe PSA just made up the numbers for the VTF-15H, they would of had to gotten them from somewhere shadyj.

Take away the "green amp" thing is there something from this chart that PSA is lying about?

All the data is taken straight from the reviews at audioholics and data-bass.

A green amp can save the end user $15 or so a year. If the product lasts for 5 years minimum, that is $75. Some would consider that a "nice to know" others can choose to ignore it.

The continuous phase control can be valuable in many scenarios when integrating two or more subwoofers in the room(and often, with just one subwoofer).

As with all the information on the chart everyone can decide what's important to them and ignore what is not. For someone who may be making a purchase decision when is more information ever a bad thing?

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Old 06-07-2013, 06:03 AM
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Of course the 15H was muddy with bad numbers. If you had read the 2 threads (at least) on the 15H you'd realize the numbers where in error. They where corrected in one place but not in others. All you've done is scooped others missed information. Not the best PR tool.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I'm not surprised. That is a pretty slanted view of the data, especially regarding the CEA measurements. The chart also makes it look like the XV15 is more feature rich than the other subs, when the opposite is true. Some of the data rows are pretty irrelevant as well, like continuous phase control and 'green amplifier' and group delay at 25 hz- none of that stuff matters. That chart was made to show the XV15 in the most favorable possible light. It looks like most of that data was taken from data-bass.com, except for the VTF15h. I wouldn't be too comfortable mixing different data sets, even CEA data sets. For instance, S&V measured and averaged the VTF15h's ultra low bass at 119.2 dB and low bass at 123.2 dB, so, using PSA's comparison standards, Hsu could release a similar comparison chart showing the VTF15h completely destroying the XV15.
The bottom line is the XV15 and VTF15 are similar performers, I am not sure why that bothers you so much. The numbers Tom posted are legit, he is not the type to skew anything to make his products look better. All of the numbers are directly from audioholics based on 2m open ground. S&V measurements are in room 1/8 space, the XV15 would be right there on par with the VTF15 in that environment. my 2 XV15's 3m apart 1/8 space hit 125db corrected...and that is after eq'ing, 132db @ 32hz before. Also S&V numbers are 2 ports open max output, which the VTF15 does not even come close in deep extension until its put into 1 port extension mode and that kills 2-3db output across the board. I am not saying one is better than the other, they both are great subs.

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Old 06-07-2013, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Saints View Post

That chart is nothing more than a marketing scheme as the 15h has more output across the board than the xv15, more tuning options, more style, heavier and much more stout and backed by a company that has been making subs and been in business for over 20 years. When spending close to a grand the extra $200 is well deserved IMO.


PROOF OF YOUR CLAIMS?
Tom @ PSA has been building subs for quite some time as well ...He is the Cofounder of SVSound...please Troll elsewhere wink.gif

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