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post #61 of 90 Old 06-21-2013, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

I can see the pb-1000 coming close in performance at 19hz and above, below that the Xs15 would win out.
You can see it for yourself with Winisd, a Peerless XXLS 10" and a Tc Sounds Lms-r 15".
Assuming the Psa driver's are anywhere near as good in compact sealed enclosures as the TC drivers.
I guess I was a little leary of the 35hz f3 on the xs15 specs page, and i think a 3000 cu ft room would be pushing it a bit for room gain reliance.

I dont know whonyou think your bs' ing, the xs15 is rated at 104db 20-31hz and 115db @ 40hz-63hz. The PB1000 does not come close...its down 4db from 20-31hz and 10db from 40-63hz.
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post #62 of 90 Old 06-21-2013, 06:01 PM
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delete double post.
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post #63 of 90 Old 06-21-2013, 06:24 PM
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Yes, that would pretty well confirm that there is no eq at work.
With that in mind I would expect the pb-1000's performance to be close to the XS-15 only at the pb-1000's tuning frequency while the Xs-15 would gain a significant advantage above and below the tuning.

However, that doesn't seem very flat does it? confused.gif

I don't think there is any perfect option here, and i'm curious what you (Auceny) thought of the bass shakers suggestion?
My thinking was, it would allow you to get close to the point of infrasonics with a decent sub and then let a bass shaker take over. Other than a sealed sub with alot of eq or a massive ported sub with a low tune (clearly unfeasible) that is the only way to get a flat response into infrasonics.
Enough room gain for a flat response, (in what looks to be a 30-8-15 ft room, 3500~ cubic foot room?) seems a tad optimistic to me. Especially when we are talking about a sealed un eq'd sub with a compact enclosure (relative to the driver size).
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I dont know whonyou think your bs' ing, the xs15 is rated at 104db 20-31hz and 115db @ 40hz-63hz. The PB1000 does not come close...its down 4db from 20-31hz and 10db from 40-63hz.

Yes I am a known "Bs'er" biggrin.gif
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post #64 of 90 Old 06-21-2013, 06:49 PM
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no sealed sub is flat, they all have a natural roll off and rely on room gain for extension. remember your comparing sealed to ported, you need to reference appropiate graphs. About every graph I have seen falls within Tom's charts. 9 out of 10 rooms will see 16-20hz extension and if it does not then the sub was placed in too large of a room. The pb1000 will run out of steam well before the xs15. Its a good sub for somebody on a budget in a smallish room. It may work well for the op.
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post #65 of 90 Old 06-21-2013, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Just saying when I post: there's only so much a consumer can do about size and then they end up hurting themselves as to what they want; deep, powerful bass.

Pick two.

Price.

Size.

Quality.

In the spirit of your comment, the LV12R isn't a large box but if one has to go smaller, now they're into the complications smaller sealed boxes bring to the conversation such as the SVS, SB-1000 or the more capable, but more expensive, SVS, SB12-NSD. Personally, I'm a big fan of sealed body subwoofers but I'm also a fan of three or four subwoofers in a room.

I've found, that no matter what door to subwooferland one opens, there's always going be a little clown on the other side, holding a sign: "You Lose!" Because now you get into issues surrounding the thought of: gee, I wish I purchased 15" drivers instead of 12" drivers (I could have put them here) as now those 15" drivers are looking like a really sweet deal. And those who are familiar with 15" drivers are wishing they had a full set of 18" drivers and those with a set of 18" drivers are looking to DIY.

Well, that aside, now that you've dialed your single, compact 12" subwoofer system in one comes to find that due to familiarity, the little, itty-bitty 12" subwoofer system is leaving them wanting more and then buyer's remorse sets in as they start looking at and chastising themselves for getting such a small subwoofer when for a few dollars more, they could have had.......

Just saying.

...rolleyes.gif

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post #66 of 90 Old 06-21-2013, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

The pb-1000 will work well, the xs15 measures down to 26hz +-3db which wouldn't be much better than the cheaper Hsu's and Nxg-bas-500, other than the higher output and possible shallower roll-off.

Having reviewed all three of those exact subwoofers I would have to disagree with this assessment.

The NXG is quite a bargain, and is certainly nothing to sneer at, but it's not in the same league as the PB-1000 or XS15 (especially the latter). The PSA sub is a beast, in every sense of the word. I've had conversations with Tom Vodhanel about it's design, and the crux of those discussions is that he and Jim engineered it specifically to take advantage of room gain (as are all properly developed acoustic suspension subwoofers). The XS15 can hit upper teens with true authority, whereas the PB-1000 is starting to run out of steam at that point. The NXG is pretty much done by then, but given the price this shouldn't be terribly surprising.

The OP's room size is over 3000 ft^3, which pretty much rules out a single NXG in my opinion. One PB-1000 would more than likely suffice, provided he isn't interested in running at reference. Since he doesn't seem interested in using duals then an LV12R or XS15 are probably more appropriate though.

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post #67 of 90 Old 06-21-2013, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kesando View Post

Doesn't matter if the ht room is only half the area. Unless you build a wall to separate the two rooms, the sub still have to cope with a 27x15 area.

The small Klipsch sub will get swallowed up in a room that large. The RW-12d will perform better while the PB1000, Outlaw and Rythmik will be yet another step up in sound quality

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post #68 of 90 Old 06-21-2013, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

no sealed sub is flat, they all have a natural roll off and rely on room gain for extension. remember your comparing sealed to ported, you need to reference appropiate graphs. About every graph I have seen falls within Tom's charts. 9 out of 10 rooms will see 16-20hz extension and if it does not then the sub was placed in too large of a room. The pb1000 will run out of steam well before the xs15. Its a good sub for somebody on a budget in a smallish room. It may work well for the op.

Many sealed subs have extensive equalization, which eats into headroom. The Svs and Hsu sealed subs are a good example of that.

By all means point me to the appropriate graphs, but I believe it was you who described the traits of your XV15 a few posts back even though the XV15 and XS15 are quite different in all but the driver.

So where does the room gain from 20-40hz kick in then? Because the xs15 would certianly need some with an f3 of 35hz.

Reviews of the Svs subs mentioned that they use Peerless XXLS drivers, I therefore mapped out a 10" Peerless XXLS driver (the only one of the XXLS line, as far as i'm aware) and found it to have a relatively flat response to an f6 of 22hz with a 19hz tune in a 2.9 cubic foot box (pb-1000 size). So it would need a bit of eq or room gain to reach Svs's spec of 19hz +-3db

I've also mapped out a few 15" drivers from Tc sounds and Jl audio with the Tc sounds doing slightly better for extension in a xs15 sized box.
That 15" TC sounds driver shows pretty well the same steep curve you mentioned a couple posts back.

I'm not saying the XS15 won't work, all i'm saying is it also might not work all that well. I would think it would be best to know which of the 2 is more likely before shipping a 700$ sub to your house.
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post #69 of 90 Old 06-21-2013, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

The OP's room size is over 3000 ft^3, which pretty much rules out a single NXG in my opinion. One PB-1000 would more than likely suffice, provided he isn't interested in running at reference. Since he doesn't seem interested in using duals then an LV12R or XS15 are probably more appropriate though.

This is pretty much the exact information I've been looking for as well between the couple ongoing threads. Thanks

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post #70 of 90 Old 06-21-2013, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Having reviewed all three of those exact subwoofers I would have to disagree with this assessment.

The NXG is quite a bargain, and is certainly nothing to sneer at, but it's not in the same league as the PB-1000 or XS15 (especially the latter). The PSA sub is a beast, in every sense of the word. I've had conversations with Tom Vodhanel about it's design, and the crux of those discussions is that he and Jim engineered it specifically to take advantage of room gain (as are all properly developed acoustic suspension subwoofers). The XS15 can hit upper teens with true authority, whereas the PB-1000 is starting to run out of steam at that point. The NXG is pretty much done by then, but given the price this shouldn't be terribly surprising.

The OP's room size is over 3000 ft^3, which pretty much rules out a single NXG in my opinion. One PB-1000 would more than likely suffice, provided he isn't interested in running at reference. Since he doesn't seem interested in using duals then an LV12R or XS15 are probably more appropriate though.

I know the thread is a bit of a mess at this point/confusing. I was actually directing that info towards Auceny, who was looking for a sub with deep extension without alot of output to avoid driving the neighbors out of their homes.

I think the op decided on a Rythmik Lv12r on the first page.

I have no doubt the xs15 is a beastly sub, but it's more a matter of the steepness of the curve after room gain compared to the ported subs.
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post #71 of 90 Old 06-22-2013, 09:13 AM
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As far as extension and a flat response at moderate volumes though, I think there are a few subs that might better fit that for the price than the ones we've focused on.

The Hsu Vtf-2 Mk4 is on sale for 529, and it's similarly specced to the Outlaw Lfm-1 Plus at 18hz +-2db.
The Hsu Vtf-3 Mk4 is selling for 649$ and so is the similarly specced Outlaw Lfm-1 Ex at 16hz +- 2db.
You can also convert the Hsu's to sealed subs on the fly.
You are looking for a home theater sub right, not a sub for music?
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post #72 of 90 Old 06-22-2013, 09:45 AM
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I think the op had decided on a b stock lv12r. I sort of high jacked the thread. Will be used for tv/movies, gaming, music in that order. I was hoping to stay fairly compact. The hsu subs look the largest of them all which kept them off the list. Pb-1000 smaller and still goes low. Lv12r little bigger than I wanted but better overall for $90 more. PSA xs15 better than all at same size cabinet but much more money. That's kind of the order I'm thinking in my head right now too although people are making a strong case for the rythmik

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post #73 of 90 Old 06-22-2013, 11:28 AM
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________________H_____W_____D
Hsu Vtf3 Mk4_____22 1⁄4"_17 3⁄4"_25 3⁄4" (Dimensions with Grill, Feet & Amp)
Outlaw Lfm-1 EX__21.5"___17"____24 "
PSA XV15)_______22”____17”____23”
Hsu Vtf2 Mk4_____22 1⁄2"_15"____22 3⁄4" (Dimesions with Feet & Amp)
Outlaw Lfm-1 Plus_21.50"__15"___ 22"
Rythmik Lv12r____22"____16"___ 19" (20-1/2" D with grille and amplifier knobs)
PSA XS15________18”____17”___ 19.5”
SVS Pb-1000_____18.4"___15"___18.4"

Might be easier to visualize it this way. The form factor is something to consider as well, a longer thinner sub like the Rythmik, Hsu Vtf2, or Lfm-1 Plus might be easier to fit in a particular space than a large cube.
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post #74 of 90 Old 06-22-2013, 01:12 PM
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No prices, hz, or db? Just playing. This chart is great. Thanks for taking the time to type it out. Makes judging the sizes much easier. The pb, xs, and lv are still looking like my favorites size wise.

How do people feel about using subs as end tables using a rubber or foam mat on top to stop vibration?

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post #75 of 90 Old 06-22-2013, 02:52 PM
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Yeah, that chart was a real pita, without the under scores the formatting was a complete mess tongue.gif

One last piece of advice, with sealed subs when you move to a larger driver, everything being equal you need a proportionately larger box to get the same extension.

You can see below how this works. All 3 subs we're given 100 watts.
The larger sealed 15" subwoofer shown in orange will have more output than the sealed 12" subwoofer shown in yellow, but it needs a larger box to do so. The frequency response curves however are the same because of the ratio of the driver size in relation to the box size.
The ported 10" shown in blue can hold a flatter response to it's tune while also having more output around the tuning frequency in around the same size enclosure as the sealed 12".

This isn't meant to be a perfect example of your situation because the Xs15, Lv-12r, and pb-1000 all use different drivers and amplifiers.
Some drivers will do better in smaller boxes, but the info provided by Jim, and the frequency response info provided by Basshead suggests the xs15 is reliant on room gain in at least the mid 20hz area and below to achieve a relatively flat response.
Room gain can help significantly to boost the lower frequencies, flattening out the curve, but it is dependent upon the size of the room.



So yes the Xs15 is definitely the more powerful sub, it has 500 watts available compared to the 300 of the pb-1000 and lv-12r, and it likely has the highest excursion driver.

However if you find out later on that your room only boosts up to around 20hz (just an example) and you try to equalize the XS-15 to even out the curve, that extra 200 watts (or 2-3 decibels available for equalization) will run dry, likely before you get close to the excursion of the driver and might still not be enough for a flat response with more output than the other subs.

So basically the box size and type are equally important as the size of the driver used.
It seems to me your situation would call for either a sealed sub with enough Eq to reach the frequency you want with a relatively flat curve, or a ported box with a suitable tune. You will pay more for the eq'd compact sealed sub, compared to the ported sub with similar performance.

Good luck smile.gif
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post #76 of 90 Old 11-28-2013, 01:58 PM
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So, I just came across this thread and it makes me want to ask a question for my own knowledge. Assume the room in question was really large... say 30x30x10' ceilings....and the goal is moderate volume at the litening position 12' back and bass down to 20hz. Does this mean that the lv12r is more likely to do the job than the xs15 because it is not counting on any room related gain?
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post #77 of 90 Old 11-28-2013, 03:22 PM
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If your room truly is 9000 ft^3 I'm afraid neither of the subwoofers you mention would even be audible, let alone provide usable 20Hz output. You might be able to get what you're after with a pair of Captivator 2400's or PSA XV 30's, but anything less than that would more than likely be money not well spent.

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post #78 of 90 Old 11-28-2013, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

If your room truly is 9000 ft^3 I'm afraid neither of the subwoofers you mention would even be audible, let alone provide usable 20Hz output. You might be able to get what you're after with a pair of Captivator 2400's or PSA XV 30's, but anything less than that would more than likely be money not well spent.


Agreed.. That's a huge room. Or dual Orbit Shifters.
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post #79 of 90 Old 11-28-2013, 04:03 PM
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Again, trying to learn...if the sound volume reduces with distance, why would there not be reasonable output only 12' back? And even with the large room, I get pretty good low end from my towers...maybe 40-45hz and above??
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post #80 of 90 Old 11-28-2013, 04:13 PM
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OK, I hit reply too soon...what if the goal is too have good low bass thst you can hear and somewhat feel at the listening position even if the room isn't pressurized?
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post #81 of 90 Old 11-28-2013, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RN2013 View Post

Again, trying to learn...if the sound volume reduces with distance, why would there not be reasonable output only 12' back?
There would be, from the mains, as the output of the mains isn't affected by cabin gain one way or the other.
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And even with the large room, I get pretty good low end from my towers...maybe 40-45hz and above??
Because cabin gain doesn't affect response down to 40Hz, at least not in a home, though it does in a car. A room where the longest room dimension is 15 feet will get 6 to 9dB of cabin gain at 20Hz. With the longest room dimension 30 feet cabin there is no cabin gain at 20Hz. To make up for that loss takes at least twice the sub count .

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post #82 of 90 Old 11-28-2013, 04:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RN2013 View Post

OK, I hit reply too soon...what if the goal is too have good low bass thst you can hear and somewhat feel at the listening position even if the room isn't pressurized?

Then do two LV12Rs placed on either side, or directly behind the main listening position as the room's going swallow up the subwoofer's output.

Unfortunately, 9000^3, you're not going fill the room with bass on a $500.00 budget. To give you perspective, I'm getting ready to upgrade our subwoofer sound reproduction system in our 3,300^3 room and we're budgeted five times as much.

(what kills me, compared to many here, that's considered a bargain basement system)

(oh.....look at his cute little subwoofer system)

...tongue.gif

For a room that size, if the budget will handle it, consider a more size appropriate subwoofer, a Rythmik, FV15HP. Also consider the other recommendations. You've a huge room and again and if not placed nearfield to your listening position, your room will swallow a single LV12R.

(a suggestion, order a LV12R and if not happy, go with a FV15HP but I think you'll be wasting your time with a single LV12R)

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post #83 of 90 Old 11-28-2013, 04:37 PM
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Agreed.. That's a huge room. Or dual Orbit Shifters.

Sorry didn't see the 500$ on thread title. Then OS is definitely out..lol
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Sorry didn't see the 500$ on thread title. Then OS is definitely out..lol

Based on the size of the room, it was a good recommendation. tongue.gif
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post #85 of 90 Old 11-28-2013, 05:11 PM
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So am I to understand that in such a big room, with a small sub like the lv12r, the low bass below 40hz will mostly be swallowed up and all I will really get is an audible kick to the speaker main bass above 40 hz...and that assumes the sub is beside a main and in a corner?
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post #86 of 90 Old 11-28-2013, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by RN2013 View Post

So am I to understand that in such a big room, with a small sub like the lv12r, the low bass below 40hz will mostly be swallowed up and all I will really get is an audible kick to the speaker main bass above 40 hz...and that assumes the sub is beside a main and in a corner?

You can substitute the word "mostly" with "entirely". That room is humongous, and your subwoofers will need to be commensurate.

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post #87 of 90 Old 11-28-2013, 05:31 PM
 
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...and that assumes the sub is beside a main and in a corner?

That would be assuming the sub is beside, or behind where you're sitting.
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post #88 of 90 Old 11-28-2013, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RN2013 View Post

So am I to understand that in such a big room, with a small sub like the lv12r, the low bass below 40hz will mostly be swallowed up and all I will really get is an audible kick to the speaker main bass above 40 hz...and that assumes the sub is beside a main and in a corner?


Just to give some kind of idea with different sizes rooms with different subs.. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1488059/your-home-theater-ulf-score
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post #89 of 90 Old 11-28-2013, 06:11 PM
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I want to thank all of you for such quick replies on Thanksgiving... much appreciated. A very simplistic takeaway is for me to start with the most woofage I can afford and then be prepared to add more if it isn't sufficient.

So, as an example, were I to start with one xv15, I may get some bass improvement to my mains but I should be fully prepared to be disappointed in the deep bass capability...in fact it might take two fv15s to equal one fv25hp or xs30s.
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With a space that large, you might be better served by walling off a Home Theater space.

If this is a big fancy space that can't be walled off, you'll be best served with three or four big gun subwoofers.

As suggested by rhed, check out the first two posts in the ULF thread.
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Onkyo Tx Nr414 , Klipsch Rb 41 Ii Bookshelf Speaker , Klipsch Rw 12d 12 Subwoofer Each , Svs Pb1000 10 Inch 300 Watt Powered Subwoofer
Gear in this thread - Nr414 by PriceGrabber.com

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