TURNKEY V DIY POLL - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: TURNKEY V DIY
TURNKEY 26 34.21%
DIY 37 48.68%
BI 13 17.11%
Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 70 Old 06-11-2013, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
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This poll is only for information purposes only.. there are no wrong or right answers concerning one’s preference. A lot of criteria comes into play when considering to DIY, or go with the turnkey solution. With many it’s a no brainer regardless of which option he or she decides! I can think of many factors with good reasoning supporting both decisions depending on which way one decides. Imo DIY is a very narrow option considered by very few. I could name many reasons why a guy might consider DIY, but then I could name just as many going the turnkey route. One thing I would like to interject is that with more ID company's showing up, it has a way of bringing the turnkey final $cost option down... (well with some anyway) but then that can be said for DIY. On the other hand it only takes a few tools (unbeknownst by many) to go DIY if a guy is committed. So as not to come across for one option over the other, (I admittedly am bi) when it comes to SW’s. It’s your ideas I'm interested in. I will say when I’m thinking of a large enclosure project, I deffitly favor DIY big-time. The enclosure isn't even available.

Anyway looking forward to the many thoughts regarding this subject if you care to participate. Pic’s are always welcome.
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post #2 of 70 Old 06-11-2013, 08:08 PM
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If you look at DIY as an enjoyable hobby that is not considered time wasted = money wasted there really is no downside to it.
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post #3 of 70 Old 06-11-2013, 08:25 PM
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I am a fan of DIY. With DIY, I can make subs to fit the space that I need them to fit, along with getting better performance. This goes for my speakers and subs. To me DIY is not about saving money, it is more about getting what you want. Saving money at times is just a bonus. smile.gif

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post #4 of 70 Old 06-11-2013, 10:06 PM
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I have been down both paths and they both have pros and cons. If I had more time on my hands I might try another DIY build, but the ID turnkey subs are pretty good for the average basshead. smile.gif
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post #5 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

I have little more than a passing interest in the science and technology of sound reproduction, I look more for acceptable end results. I prefer to go turnkey and cobble together a best-fit system. I can see me trying DIY after I retire for something to do, but it would probably be a one-time attempt. Of course, one time may give me the bug.

Yes when I started DIY I figured on a one time affair, but then as with turnkey it had just as much (maybe more) allure calling itself out! None the same I find DIY always there staring at me with a intriguing affect.
Quote:
Jay1.. If you look at DIY as an enjoyable hobby that is not considered time wasted = money wasted there really is no downside to it.

Yeah we never count our time do we?... especially since we chalk it up as a hobby. The only time I consider it work is when I build more than two at a time. I really should build two and then one or two after a break.
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AV.. I am a fan of DIY. With DIY, I can make subs to fit the space that I need them to fit, along with getting better performance. This goes for my speakers and subs. To me DIY is not about saving money, it is more about getting what you want. Saving money at times is just a bonus smile.gif.

Never have taken on speakers, guess I like what I have to much? I also intimidated wink.gif I do plan on my next DIY sub being a little odd shaped with three 12” drivers though. Kind of a scaled down XXXXX clone. wink.gif
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basshead.. I have been down both paths and they both have pros and cons. If I had more time on my hands I might try another DIY build, but the ID turnkey subs are pretty good for the average basshead. smile.gif

Huh! I didn’t know that, would love to see a pic of what you came up with though. I totally agree with your assessment.. there are some great options out there that appeal to the mass, no doubt about it. Wish I had the funds to try them all. smile.gif

DIY is way ahead so far, I figured the numbers would come in just the opposite even though admittedly the poll has just started.

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post #6 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 08:07 AM
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Yes I built a custom 15" passive thats about 4ft tall back in the day. I wrapped it in black for mica with brass corners. It is a band bass style completely enclosed. If my memory serves me right the bottom chamber is 3cf sealed and the top chamber is 1.5cf ported with 3-4" ports tuned for 30hz. I powered it with a marantz ma monoblock bridged 2ohms. For some reason it sounds best in a closet. my house does not have a closet near by to put it in and I didnt really like it in my living room, So I gave it to my brother. The specs must be pretty close for the JBL driver because no matter how loud you turn it up it will not bottom out.

I will see if I can find a pic and post it.
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post #7 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 08:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Anyway looking forward to the many thoughts regarding this subject if you care to participate. Pic’s are always welcome.

Turnkey. I plug it in, dial it in and fir-git-abt-it. My problem, I want to mix sealed with vented.
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post #8 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 08:24 AM
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DIY or AIY all the way! There is no going back now.

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post #9 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 08:27 AM
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If I had the necessary skill, patience, tools and workshop, I might try DIY. Since all I have is the necessary money (yes, life could be worse wink.gif), I'm happy to purchase (a) good-quality turnkey subwoofer(s).
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post #10 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 10:18 AM
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DiY, harder- but much better payoff. It also gets you much more involved in things like EQ which is important to both DiY and turn key systems.
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post #11 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Yes I built a custom 15" passive thats about 4ft tall back in the day. I wrapped it in black for mica with brass corners. It is a band bass style completely enclosed. If my memory serves me right the bottom chamber is 3cf sealed and the top chamber is 1.5cf ported with 3-4" ports tuned for 30hz. I powered it with a marantz ma monoblock bridged 2ohms. For some reason it sounds best in a closet. my house does not have a closet near by to put it in and I didnt really like it in my living room, So I gave it to my brother. The specs must be pretty close for the JBL driver because no matter how loud you turn it up it will not bottom out.

I will see if I can find a pic and post it.

Mmmm... Looking forward to your pic, never heard of that desighn befor. smile.gif
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Bee.. Turnkey. I plug it in, dial it in and fir-git-abt-it. My problem, I want to mix sealed with vented.

Mix sealed with vented! Ah errrr... More power to yah, good luck biggrin.gif Your new mini ought to really help. Looking forward to where your SW endeavor takes you.
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DIY or AIY all the way! There is no going back now.

MK... One look at your wall of subs, I would expect no less from you.. very impressive indeed.cool.gif

Eljay...
Quote:
If I had the necessary skill, patience, tools and workshop, I might try DIY. Since all I have is the necessary money (yes, life could be worse wink.gif ), I'm happy to purchase (a) good-quality turnkey subwoofer(s).

I love the nice clean look of your theater. I have noticed in the past that you run Chase SW's... they ought to get mentioned more often imo. He once talked me into the Maestro. At the time it was quite the sub.
Quote:
Storm... DiY, harder- but much better payoff. It also gets you much more involved in things like EQ which is important to both DiY and turn key systems.

That was the case with me anyway. Hey have you ever heard of the BASSISS? Much cheaper options to go with today but for sealed I really like it.. night and day difference applied to sealed. http://www.marchandelec.com/wm8.html

Bi is sneaking up! tongue.gif Few of us out here anyway.

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post #12 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 11:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Your new mini ought to really help.

Haven't purchased the miniDSP as miniDSP only uses PayPal and due to fiscal horror stories, we don't do PayPal.

Quote:
Looking forward to where your SW endeavor takes you.

Waiting on the 401(k) to smile a bit and when that happens, our direction will go to:

Rythmik, F25 and an E15

or

PSA, XV30f and a XS15.

Or, a mixed up combination of the above with the nod going toward a PSA, XV30f and a Rythmik, E15. For reasons that surround fluid dynamics, I'm not a fan of down firing subwoofers as I don't want the energy driven into the floor from a few inches away. But a PSA, XV30f, coupled with a Rythmik, E15, cures that concern. Okay, it's turns right around and opens another can of worms but hey, one can of worms at a time. tongue.gif

I have a WAF, size thingy going on and the single driver vented subs are too big for proper placement and be expected to blend with furniture and decor. For placement purposes, I need to stack subs, hence the dual driver subwoofer choice and the due to WAF vs integration efforts, the need for mixing sealed with vented as this has nothing to do with creating a new sound but instead is the more mundane, making the wife happy. Either which way I go, hopefully three, 15" drivers, with >1,500w of amplification, will provide enough headroom to sonically light our 3,300 cu ft room (not counting openings to adjacent rooms) and have headroom left over.

-
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post #13 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 02:12 PM
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It's really a stupid question: there are a vast majority of AV enthusiasts who have no interest at all in DIY for a variety of reasons, so they will not even consider it as a feasible approach, nor will those people usually have any idea what you can actually achieve in DIY, especially for the money involved. Like others have said I do not consider the time spent building/designing to be wasted money, but a parallel hobby to the use of the speakers built.

I'm in Australia so I'm in a different cost structure to US members. However take my own example: I can build a pair of FTW21 based subs, including a pair of NU3000 amps and a MiniDSP and ply for not much difference to what I can buy a single SVS PB13 Ultra. Almost 10 liters of volume displacement vs about 1-1.5 litres, 4kW RMS vs 1kW and a much more flexible DSP to EQ the subs to however I choose in my room. And a pair of subs gives more flexibility in placement and possibility of ameliorating some room mode issues. Not even close to fair comparison in terms of performance.

My subs will be larger, but I am building them in a shape which suits me for where I want to place them which is not possible for a turnkey. That said many also do not have the time, materials, skills or interest building their own units, so not a fair comparison in that regard.
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post #14 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Either which way I go, hopefully three, 15" drivers, with >1,500w of amplification, will provide enough headroom to sonically light our 3,300 cu ft room (not counting openings to adjacent rooms) and have headroom left over.

Knowing how you like to tinker, I'm sure you'll achieve great results even though your approach will require sorting out that can of worms you mention. smile.gif I can see it now... Beeman posting this is the way to go biggrin.gif I say that in a nice way I assure you.

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post #15 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 02:32 PM
 
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I can see it now... Beeman posting this is the way to go biggrin.gif I say that in a nice way I assure you.

...
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post #16 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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My subs will be larger, but I am building them in a shape which suits me for where I want to place them which is not possible for a turnkey. That said many also do not have the time, materials, skills or interest building their own units, so not a fair comparison in that regard.

That's why I posted my opening statement in the way I did. There are so many factors to consider I did'nt bother listing them all. Shape-$$ are two that might not have any consideration with many. Time, skills and materials might be regarded but then with some it's not a factor at all... hence there is no wrong answer. YMMV

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post #17 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

...

LOL That's a big one, I'm going to save that. smile.gif

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post #18 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 02:41 PM
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Haven't purchased the miniDSP as miniDSP only uses PayPal and due to fiscal horror stories, we don't do PayPal.
Waiting on the 401(k) to smile a bit and when that happens, our direction will go to:

Rythmik, F25 and an E15

or

PSA, XV30f and a XS15.

Or, a mixed up combination of the above with the nod going toward a PSA, XV30f and a Rythmik, E15. For reasons that surround fluid dynamics, I'm not a fan of down firing subwoofers as I don't want the energy driven into the floor from a few inches away. But a PSA, XV30f, coupled with a Rythmik, E15, cures that concern. Okay, it's turns right around and opens another can of worms but hey, one can of worms at a time. tongue.gif

I have a WAF, size thingy going on and the single driver vented subs are too big for proper placement and be expected to blend with furniture and decor. For placement purposes, I need to stack subs, hence the dual driver subwoofer choice and the due to WAF vs integration efforts, the need for mixing sealed with vented as this has nothing to do with creating a new sound but instead is the more mundane, making the wife happy. Either which way I go, hopefully three, 15" drivers, with >1,500w of amplification, will provide enough headroom to sonically light our 3,300 cu ft room (not counting openings to adjacent rooms) and have headroom left over.

-

Beeman, I gurantee 3 15's will get you there. hell when my dual xv15's are playing up around 120db, my farthest back bed room hits peaks of 90-95db...the sound has to travel down 2 hall ways to get there. That should be a good indication of what a 1000watts and 2 15's can achieve. If only my 2400^3 room did not have a 6ft opening into the rest of the house. For reference my house is a 2100 square foot ranch.
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post #19 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Beeman, I gurantee 3 15's will get you there. hell when my dual xv15's are playing up around 120db, my farthest back bed room hits peaks of 90-95db...the sound has to travel down 2 hall ways to get there. That should be a good indication of what a 1000watts and 2 15's can achieve. If only my 2400^3 room did not have a 6ft opening into the rest of the house.

I think Bee is planning on mixing sealed with vented, so thus the phrase can of worms if I understand correctly?

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post #20 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 03:13 PM
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I think Bee is planning on mixing sealed with vented, so thus the phrase can of worms if I understand correctly?

Yup sounds like a bad idea imo...but hey whatever floats his boat, turns the crank, or wets the whistle.
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I think Bee is planning on mixing sealed with vented, so thus the phrase can of worms if I understand correctly?

I'm always causing trouble as those "T" intersections confuse me. tongue.gif

If I can do a work around to the dilemma, I will. I really do want to buy a PSA, XV30f but I like what sealed subwoofers do for a room's measurements. I also like what the posted measurements for the XV30f are but I like what the servo drivers and the parametric amplifier of the Rythmik, F25 are capable of. Then enters the mix, the need for a third subwoofer that will fit in a sweet spot location as I eyeball a yet to be tried out, third location.

...rolleyes.gif
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post #22 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm always causing trouble as those "T" intersections confuse me. tongue.gif

If I can do a work around to the dilemma, I will. I really do want to buy a PSA, XV30f but I like what sealed subwoofers do for a room's measurements. I also like what the posted measurements for the XV30f are but I like what the servo drivers and the parametric amplifier of the Rythmik, F25 are capable of. Then enters the mix, the need for a third subwoofer that will fit in a sweet spot location as I eyeball a yet to be tried out, third location.

...rolleyes.gif

That's going to be interesing. You know my thoughts in (general)... so I would love to see this work out for you, It never has with me. smile.gif

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post #23 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 05:38 PM
 
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... I would love to see this work out for you, It never has with me. smile.gif

What problems did you run into? confused.gif
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post #24 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 06:45 PM
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What problems did you run into? confused.gif
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

What problems did you run into? confused.gif

Im assuming phase issues around the ported subs tuning point.
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post #25 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post


Im assuming phase issues around the ported subs tuning point.

That about covers it. Do to cancelations a guy can wined up with less SPL than he had with a single to the left. There are some workarounds, but a same like sub is the best approach imo.

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post #26 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 08:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Im assuming phase issues around the ported subs tuning point.

Thank-you. Is what you're trying to communicate, regarding when one subwoofer drops out and the other continues due to the tuning point of the vented subwoofer? If I'm understanding you correctly, the more drivers in a system, the smoother the graph. As you know, synergistically the sound waves combine. I expect the amplifier and technology of the Rythmik amplifier to automatically integrate into the tuning point of the XV30f. In my opinion, the E15 (600w amplifier controlling one driver) is quite a sealed subwoofer and in my opinion, is capable of keeping up with the XV30f's output.

If speaking about phase issues, I've put a lot of measuring effort in, using asymmetrical phase settings so as to account for the different times the sound wave arrive at the main listening position. Of course this bones the person four feet to the right, but if you won't tell them, I won't either. tongue.gif Yes, even if the subwoofers are reasonably matched, phase issues can be quite the challenge.

(from your above comments, it's looks like a bit of both issues)

I'll use the LPF on one sub to reduce interaction and cancellation issues. Currently I have our subwoofer system set up in this fashion to reduce the size of a null that anti-mode was having a bear of a time dealing with.

With REW to aid in seeing the room's acoustics and how the room responds to the combination's reproduction efforts......time will tell. tongue.gif Then there's the add of anti-mode that handles phase alignment issues and couple with Audyssey, more issues are dealt with. I'm sure there are quite a few people who think I'm totally daft in how I see things.

At this time and point, I'm not setting anything in mental concrete but instead, it's just an idea I'm knocking around. It's nice to read what you guys think. Yes, it's an expensive idea to knock around but at this time and point, it's just an idea and yes, maybe it's a lame idea but I want both worlds. The world of PSA and their XV30f and due to size constraints, I want the wonderful world of Rythmik and their sealed, E15 offering. In the end, I may have to sit down, shut up and go with the Rythmik, F25 and the E15 and sadly feel as if I've abandoned PSA and SVS. I think we all get attached to these manufacture's product lines.

-
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post #27 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
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There are some workarounds,

Go to it Bee, it can be done with the rite $gear. smile.gif

EDIT> I can see into the future, you're going to post XYZ is the way to go. biggrin.gif

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post #28 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 09:16 PM
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I believe the issue your going to run into is no matter what eq device or measuring gear you have, the cancellation point between where the ported sub tuning point crosses with the sealed sub will be rather difficult to phase align. I know that rythmik and psa highly advise against mixing ported with sealed. Not saying it cant be done,, but you would be adding yet another challenge to your already difficult room acoustics. I would go with a triax and a xs30...that will give you some serious midbass and deep extension...my next suggestion would be a F25 with a E15, but of course like you say its all about the benjamins.
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post #29 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I believe the issue your going to run into is no matter what eq device or measuring gear you have, the cancellation point between where the ported sub tuning point crosses with the sealed sub will be rather difficult to phase align. I know that rythmik and psa highly advise against mixing ported with sealed. Not saying it cant be done,, but you would be adding yet another challenge to your already difficult room acoustics. I would go with a triax and a xs30...that will give you some serious midbass and deep extension...my next suggestion would be a F25 with a E15, but of course like you say its all about the benjamins.

SHsssss smile.gif

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post #30 of 70 Old 06-12-2013, 09:36 PM
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SHsssss smile.gif

Or should I say build some custom 15" cylinders. Diy might be a good option for Beeman especially if the benjamins are tight.
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